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Question for those who use or have used portable radios in public safety.

If you are in public safety, would you rather have a portable radio that...


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kayn1n32008

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I beg to differ on that, the radio when receiving audio uses more power than when it sits on the control channel.

The radio is not in ‘standby’ on a trunk system in the manner it would be on a conventional channel. Not can you use a ‘battery saver’ when using a trunk system that utilizes a continuous control channel. The radio is constantly receiving a signal and processing data.

I would guess there is less of a jump in current consumption to go from ‘listening’ to the control channel to passing audio than going from no signal to listening to the control channel.
 

rapidcharger

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I see that additional comments were made by the OP in the time I made mine, but what does he expect from people who are for the most part not end users but somewhat technically capable. For his survey it would have been better asked on a forum (you chose which one) that has users, and not techs. Not being desparaging, just an observation.

I agree. It would have been a better question to ask on a LEO or firefighter forum but I haven't had the best luck with posting questions to those in the past. They had assumed I was in training and looking for answers to something I should have known.

The reason I believe the answers between admins and users are different is fairly obvious and are supported by the current poll results. There are clearly people who are voting but not posting. I would say that's wise given the volatility of this forum.
 

radioman2001

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I wouldn't say volatile, just very opionated. Tech people have to deal with all kinds of complaints, some valid, some not, and some stupid. People who use radios don't understand that it's not a cellphone or land line, and it doesn't work everywhere and all the time. It needs to be cared for in terms of maintence, which include batteries. In some respect it would be better to go back to no alert and have the user realize he/she must actually do something each shift to keep the radio working.
I understand what you are looking for, but this is not the correct forum for it. Depending on how you word the question in the poll you might get a better result from participants. Explain to users you are surveying for discussion on a possible policy about how you or agency is going to program your radios in the future.

Quote"
The radio is not in ‘standby’ on a trunk system in the manner it would be on a conventional channel.

I will agree that a trunking radio is using a bit more power than a conventional radio, as it's doing some processing of the data while on the control channel, but even a trunking radio uses a fraction of the power sitting on a control as opposed to actually receiving a call. The audio PA uses a lot of power when receiving.
 
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rapidcharger

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Explain to users you are surveying for discussion on a possible policy about how you or agency is going to program your radios in the future.

I think there was an option to disable comments and I should have ticked that box.
The person that I was discussing this with is in full bore debate mode and wants to win a debate but I wasn't arguing one way or the other. It just seemed to make more sense to not lose comms if the user's battery drops prematurely even if the failure is due to their own mistake. Everyone makes mistakes even if they were trained or know better. And sometimes people are out in the field and cant just return to the station and get a new battery while they're in the middle of a call. Maybe it's ideal but it's not realistic. I just got off the phone with someone who made a mistake on something so obvious. That's the problem with humans. We make mistakes all the time. Just like how I made a mistake by not disabling comments even though for a split second I considered it.

I was trying to avoid offering my own opinion on the subject but I guess now everyone knows where I stand on the issue. Another mistake.

Quote"
The radio is not in ‘standby’ on a trunk system in the manner it would be on a conventional channel.

I will agree that a trunking radio is using a bit more power than a conventional radio, as it's doing some processing of the data while on the control channel, but even a trunking radio uses a fraction of the power sitting on a control as opposed to actually receiving a call. The audio PA uses a lot of power when receiving.

I didn't write that. It was someone else's post.
 

MTS2000des

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I think there was an option to disable comments and I should have ticked that box.
Then why bother posting any new threads on a DISCUSSION forum if you aren't capable of DISCUSSING it.
The person that I was discussing this with is in full bore debate mode and wants to win a debate but I wasn't arguing one way or the other.
Please stop with the duck and run responses. If one can't discuss, than one shouldn't begin a discussion. And remember, one doesn't have to be right, they just have to prove the other wrong.
It just seemed to make more sense to not lose comms if the user's battery drops prematurely even if the failure is due to their own mistake.
Coming from someone who, to the best of my knowledge, has never run on any deployments, supported actual IDLH communications for a living, I can see why one might think that.
It has now been openly affirmed by others who all say the same thing: don't go into an IDLH setting with substandard or unchecked equipment. If one goes in, they come right out until the equipment issue is rendered safe. For some reason, you are the one who refuses to accept that. Thankfully, the pros know better and act accordingly.
That's the problem with humans. We make mistakes all the time. Just like how I made a mistake by not disabling comments even though for a split second I considered it.
In public safety, the goal is to minimize mistakes. Thats why we train and utilize the ICS model. It's not hard. It works.
Part of being human is also admitting when we make mistakes, and learn from it rather than burying our heads in the sand or wishing away facts.
 

rapidcharger

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Then why bother posting any new threads on a DISCUSSION forum if you aren't capable of DISCUSSING it.

Ok good idea. I'll pretend I'm a motorola radio and I'll just stop.


Please stop with the duck and run responses.

This is the second time I've been criticized recently for not engaging in a debate. I'm just here to learn.


If one can't discuss, than one shouldn't begin a discussion.

It should have been merely a survey and not a discussion. I am not infallible.

And remember, one doesn't have to be right, they just have to prove the other wrong.

And that's clearly what this was always about with you.... winning an argument.

Coming from someone who, to the best of my knowledge, has never run on any deployments, ...

This fallacious reasoning is called poisoning the well . I never claimed to be qualified to do anything pertaining to the subject matter. I merely asked a question and I tried my best not to steer respondents of the survey into answering any particular way by showing bias.
In public safety, the goal is to minimize mistakes. Thats why we train and utilize the ICS model. It's not hard. It works.
It is wishful thinking to believe that training will work every time and it might also have nothing to do with training and everything to do with a sudden equipment failure.
 
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MTS2000des

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This is the second time I've been criticized recently for not engaging in a debate. I'm just here to learn.
So what have you learned thus far? Several folks involved directly have told you what you've already been told here and on other mediums.
Either it's sinking in or one is choosing to be obtuse.
If your receiving criticism, than maybe you should take it under advisement and enact some behavior modifications...
It should have been merely a survey and not a discussion. I am not infallible.
But you started a discussion, not a survey. So man up, and either participate, or not. But complaining that others are participating in a discussion is nothing more than trolling.
I never claimed to be qualified to do anything pertaining to the subject matter.
Your responses and statements on this subject certainly uphold that ideal.
It is wishful thinking to believe that training will work every time and it might also have nothing to do with training and everything to do with a sudden equipment failure.
Something called experience is what builds preparedness. Professionals have it. They build on it. The learn from their mistakes, and those of others. More importantly, they listen to those with experience and know when not to speak.
 

jeatock

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Oh boy... has this turned into a brand-name and flame war! I am both a tech and long time end user. Here is my two cents and I'm done.

On the original poll question:
1. Audible alert on a weak battery: Yes, always, and repeated every few minutes and on PTT.
2. Bloody murder audible alert on a flat battery: Yes, always, repeated frequently and on PTT.
3. Full shutdown to a brick condition (including RX), OR low TX power and some function: Low TX and some function with obvious user notification.

Opinion:
(assume the user was NOT taking a knife to a gunfight)
1. Even a subtle beating over the head is sometimes ignored or unnoticed in the heat of the battle.
2. I would rather be able to hear that nobody answered, hear a "repeat your traffic", or have a 3rd party relay my message than have a brick or hear blissful silence.
3. A brick will not convey an evacuation order, but a RX-only portable will.
4. I would rather only have my lead-in ANI show up with no voice following than nothing at all.
5. I would rather be able to talk simplex 50 feet to another responder that can relay me than not be able to talk at all.

First Proviso: All inspection, maintenance and due diligence was performed prior to the failure.
Second Proviso: ILDH or tactical life and safety critical communications are not requiring use of remote infrastructure due to the additional points of failure.
Third Proviso: Due to an un-diagnosed battery failure there is not enough available battery energy to send communication any further than reduced watts will go. i.e.: You can't squeeze blood from a turnip, VS. arbitrarily reducing power because the battery is low.

On anything other than using plain stupid simplex analog in any tactical or IDLH environment: LODD report contributors back this up, while non-line actors want more sales, un-needed bells and whistles, off-site micro management or CYA distant archiving of all tactical traffic.

The purpose of the exercise is reliable communication inside a hot zone and with Safety / Command / Other nearby. Any introduction of un-necessary complexity adds a potential layer of failure to emergency and mayday traffic. A digital radio faced with interference of the desired signal blissfully does nothing while a stupid analog radio will play something, even if unintelligible. That is the nature of an over-BER digital failure vs an interfering signal on stupid analog. A portable radio user in an IDLH calling less than 300 feet does not need extra layers of failure by associating and requesting talk-group access from a repeater miles away over bad road.

The same goes for command sending an emergency message 300 feet but having critical traffic folded, spindled and mutilated through a distant repeater (with -85db downlink signal in the hot zone) when the uplink signal from his radio covers the hot zone at -60db... and may be the interference wacking out his own message.

On radio users checking their equipment: The Captain, Chief or department tech does not personally check an end user's flashlight, 4-gas meter, fuel tank and BA prior to every call for service. That responsibility lies solely with the end user. The same applies to radios - any brand radio - and the batteries that power them.

Just because you have a tool - any tool - does not mean that it will work until you know it will work. Knowledgeable users check every critical aspect of every tool's operation every time - period - and that is a result of training, familiarity with equipment, and in many cases habit. Verifying that all tools are fully functional before performing any tactical or IDLH operation is the user's responsibility, even if other's have recently done the same check. I refuse to bet my life on you remembering not to forget.

On alerting the user of an issue: BA's have PASS alarms and other indicators. New NFPA apparatus alert to seat belt non-compliance. Saws do not have gas gauges, but if it feels light and is sputtering there's your sign. Flashlight go dim. Nearly all new-er radios (not just those where the model number and price equate) can provide an audible alert that the battery is low, and no user - especially those with critical need - should ignore those alerts.

That the 'old radios didn't do that' or users do not know what the alert means is a failure of the command structure above the user, and a failure of the user to be familiar with all aspects of his tools. An ignored alert is NOT not a failure of the equipment. Cliche': Make something idiot proof and someone will come out with better idiots.

On battery failures leading to PA cutoff: Key word is failures. Verifying that all tools are fully functional before performing any tactical or IDLH operation is the user's responsibility.

All three brands of radios I deal with have perfect batteries that never fail. I also have a bridge for sale.

Regular checking, conditioning and replacement will NEVER catch all battery failures. Battery failures happen without warning. I can't find any 72-month-super-quality vehicle battery that is 100% reliable after two years. All infrastructure backup and standby generator batteries are replaced at three years, no matter what.

A typical 2-way transmission lasts <5 seconds. A radio that sees 7.4 volts when the PTT is pushed has no time to warn the user that a dead cell drops the volts to 6.0 two seconds into transmit. No PA will stay up at that low voltage, and the user has seconds to react, often while focused on more critical things.

Dead cells can only be identified by regular battery evaluation and red flagging a battery that failed in use. Battery failures are almost always from batteries past their age or cycle lifespan and never checked for sustained performance. Another reason every radio should have an immediately available hot battery that is swapped prior to IDLH operations, with more batteries on standby for backup.

Intense operation batteries should be swapped at every rehab.

On brands: You generally get what you pay for, but paying four times more does not guarantee you get four times better. Not all models from any one manufacturer perform the same. There are thousands of 15 Y.O. Icom F11's still in service, and boxes of dead F3's. The Spectra Easter Egg capacitor hatches every day. VX-2100's that are perfect in wide are stone deaf in narrow. Every manufacturer has radios they would love to forget they ever built. EVERY manufacturer.

Not all dealers program radios to work properly or to full capacity. Not all agencies spec or program radios correctly... and politics kill responders. I have been to customers with mid-tier radios - other than my primary brand - who complained their equipment was junk. 3 out of 5 times only the batteries were junk or they were simply programmed wrong (Note: in two recent cases radios had State-Mandated programming that guaranteed failure of the State-Tech's NON-preferred brand.)

A department with a 65 call/year volume (two thirds of them BS or 'frequent flyer' calls) won't qualify for big money grants. An agency with an annual $20K budget can't spend the wad on radios, and is hard pressed to pony up their 5% match for a $100K grant for new equipment. That is an unavoidable fact of life. Impres(r) is a good idea, but beyond many budgets, and multiple model radios in the same environment lead to end-user confusion and extra parts to support them all.

Some dealers put in frequency, CTCSS and call it good. Better dealers take the time to go through every screen and set radios up right as verified by first hand experience before releasing product to the customer, then check real world operation over time . The best dealers will not sell the wrong radio or radios not set up properly... to anyone at at any price.
 
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radioman2001

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jeatock fantastic analogy. Having worked in PS radio for over 45 years I have seen all the tricks that manufactures pull to make their product look or appear to work better. The $8-10K radios of today are far more than most PS responders can handle, especially in the heat of battle (pick you poison on that one).
I would like to see going back to a single channel for dispatch, maybe a Tac for other operations, a area wide common channel. Fire grounds SHOULD always be simplex and prefereably analog. Recording FG through an onsite repeater or trunked group doesn't endanger FF/EMT's when they can't call back to repeater. From what has been said here the battery would last longer that way.
I think we have taken this as far off track as we can. Everybody has an opinion based on experience, best anyone can do it is take it all in and make a best judgment call for what you want to do.
 

rapidcharger

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On the original poll question:
1. Audible alert on a weak battery: Yes, always, and repeated every few minutes and on PTT.
2. Bloody murder audible alert on a flat battery: Yes, always, repeated frequently and on PTT.
3. Full shutdown to a brick condition (including RX), OR low TX power and some function: Low TX and some function with obvious user notification.

So you're saying "all of the above" and that would be ideal however that wasn't one of the options in the poll.

Background information you didn't ask for but might be wondering...

The subject radios that brought this up are not marketed towards public safety. They are more for heavy industry, transportation, business and security. I'm not actually sure if these will do all three on your list or not but I purposely disabled the default setting (#2 on your list above) because I occasionally forget to turn off a radio before I go to bed and if the battery alert sounds its disturbing to say the least. So mine just go into low power and do not give audible alerts even though they will if I enable that. And so the reason this came up was because MTS2000DES (yes the guy that just accused me of being a troll) and I frequently talk on a repeater that is 45 miles away from here. I can hit it solidly with 4 watts but after a lengthy rag chew talking on high power the voltage drops and the power output cuts back to a low power. With that low power setting I can still get into the repeater but it will get a little staticky whereas before it was full quieting. Then he'll say "did you move" or something to that effect because of the signal degradation. He is used to people just cutting out and disappearing when their battery dies so he didn't know that I had gone into low power condition. Anyway, I said not to worry, my battery is low and I was switched low power automatically. People might like having their radio cut out suddenly when their battery dies and find that really convenient but personally I like being able to talk a little longer and sign out properly and I would imagine that in the public safety professions, the ability to do that could be a life saver.

MTS2000DES proceeded to tell me I was a dumb$%^& and didn't know anything because he has professional experience on the admin side of things and I'm just a hobbyist that doesn't know jack about the real world but I do believe that those who are literally in the line of fire, in super high stress environments like law enforcement, or on the battlefield where they might not have a charger or a spare battery, that automatically reducing power just might save their life. I had suspected the answers from those who serve would be different than those on the admin side and that's why I posted the poll. At the moment the poll does appear to confirm what I had believed all along.

Icom's public safety portables might actually let you have all 3. Do they, just out of curiosity?

Also this idea that APX or Impres batteries were designed to last a whole shift and therefore won't drop prematurely is absurd because why then would they even bother to have a low battery indicator at all if the battery is never going to die before the shift and people are trained to never leave without a full charge. That's asinine and it's going to get somebody killed.
 

MTS2000des

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The subject radios that brought this up are not marketed towards public safety.
You failed the mention the part where I described similar "warningless" power output drop on IC-F70DS and IC-F80DS, these are P25 radios intended for and were marketed directly to public safety. I have owned both and both behave similarly, which is what I based my opinion on.
With that low power setting I can still get into the repeater but it will get a little staticky whereas before it was full quieting. Then he'll say "did you move" or something to that effect because of the signal degradation. He is used to people just cutting out and disappearing when their battery dies so he didn't know that I had gone into low power condition.
All of this is fine for your use on HAM repeaters where you aren't relying on your radio for safety of life. But that wasn't the intended audience, you weren't asking hams, you were asking users of public safety equipment about radios dropping power during use and why you put up a poll, or is it?
Anyway, I said not to worry, my battery is low and I was switched low power automatically. People might like having their radio cut out suddenly when their battery dies and find that really convenient but personally I like being able to talk a little longer and sign out properly and I would imagine that in the public safety professions, the ability to do that could be a life saver.
and you now have three plus pages of replies from multiple people who say that's a bad idea and yet, instead of learning from them and saying "thanks everyone, I learned something today", you still want to debate it and then whine when people do. I don't understand.
MTS2000DES proceeded to tell me I was a dumb$%^&....
I never said you were a dumb$a$$. Sorry you feel that way.
I did state what I believe to be true, that your experience with supporting public safety subscriber radios is limited. That is in no way to imply one's intelligence is low.
I don't know anything about basketball but that doesn't make me a dumbxxx.

But if I wanted to learn about it, I would read up on it. If I got on a basketball forum, I would listen to the NBA pros by reading/researching rather than posting polls and then complain when they tell me about how the game is really played when I've never done more than dribble down a high school court in the 9th grade.
I do believe that those who are literally in the line of fire, in super high stress environments like law enforcement, or on the battlefield where they might not have a charger or a spare battery, that automatically reducing power just might save their life. I had suspected the answers from those who serve would be different than those on the admin side and that's why I posted the poll. At the moment the poll does appear to confirm what I had believed all along.
You've also heard from people other than me that this is a stupid idea and your "poll" doesn't consider the biggest flaw in these Icom's ROS which is the lack of practical warning the end user that their radio is in a degraded state. Moreover, the fact that this is a default setting, most radio programmers and codeplug authors may miss this important detail. It's not like Icom Cloning Software comes with videos and help files the way other public safety radio vendors provide. This is more of a safety hazard than a radio that gives the user AMPLE warning and in the APX family, one can even opt for EARLY LOW BATTERY ALERTS so someone KNOWS well in advance that their radio is about to be unusable.
Also this idea that APX or Impres batteries were designed to last a whole shift and therefore won't drop prematurely is absurd because why then would they even bother to have a low battery indicator at all if the battery is never going to die before the shift and people are trained to never leave without a full charge. That's asinine and it's going to get somebody killed.
Uh, because APX radios aren't toys and users are ALERTED WELL AHEAD OF TIME that their battery is low and are greeted with not just some cryptic battery low small icon on a display while they're keyed up telling dispatch their being shot at. The low battery chirp, combined with an alternating RED background on the display (intelligent lighting feature) and the text RADIO LOW BATT, combined with flashing RED LED and, in the case of IMPRES audio accessories like BT RSMs, an audible voice RADIO BATTERY LOW sounds. Did I mention this can also be enabled to sound from the radio? MSI obviously wants their life safety users to KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT the operational condition of their equipment at all times.

Becoming proficient with one's equipment is part of what being professional is all about. Where I work, we try to help our users by training their staff to manage their equipment so they KNOW how to spot problems early and not get caught in the field with a piece of failing equipment. Radios get programmed to let users know when something isn't right.
 

rapidcharger

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All of this is fine for your use on HAM repeaters where you aren't relying on your radio for safety of life. But that wasn't the intended audience, you weren't asking hams, you were asking users of public safety equipment about radios dropping power during use and why you put up a poll, or is it?

I was asking the users who know their needs better than anyone else.
Thats why I didn't ask hams and thats why I didn't ask civilian radio system admins.
Becoming proficient with one's equipment is part of what being professional is all about. Where I work, we try to help our users by training their staff to manage their equipment so they KNOW how to spot problems early and not get caught in the field with a piece of failing equipment. Radios get programmed to let users know when something isn't right.

I also want to make something clear.
I never brought your knowledge of radios or expertise into question.
That said, you're not the one using the radios other than testing purposes.
You're not being shot at while you try to call for backup.
You're not in a burning building when the stairwell you climbed up to get in has collapsed.
You aren't trying to warn a comrade in some burned out Afghan hellscape.

What you think is best for users is not necessarily what the users think is based on their unique needs. You think returning to the station to get a new battery is the solution. I believe the actual users would have a different take on how realistic that is.

I have been using toilets for 4 decades now and I can use a toilet like a boss.
But I have no experience installing toilets other than calling a plumber to do it.
And maybe that plumber has experience using toilets himself or maybe he digs a hole in the ground and just goes there. If I wanted to better learn the needs of a toilet user, I would ask a toilet user and not just a toilet installer. And I wouldn't just ask any toilet user. I would ask someone with irritable bowel syndrome.

The reason the toilet analogy is appropriate in this case is while I have experience using toilets, like batteries that suddenly go limp, toilets will suddenly get clogged through no fault of my own. Because of my needs as a power user that consumes a lot of fiber, I couldn't have an ordinary gravity-flush toilet that can clog and leave flushing disabled. MY needs dictated that power pressurized toilets be installed because I need a toilet that won't leave me stranded and standing in overflowed toilet water.

Experts on toilet design might criticize me for not breaking up my solids with a shovel or something prior to flushing and not having remedial training on toilet usage, I would still rather not be without flushing. I need it to flush. One time, every time.
 
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rapidcharger

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So some random dude is your low battery alert? Holy crap on a cracker...

I disabled the audible alerts due to my health concerns. I suffer from misophonia and hyperacusis that is so debilitating that I literally had to move 2 hours away from the urbanized area that I was living. I can turn the noisemakers on if I so desired but I am just a hobbyist and my opinion on the poll question is null and void.
 

15plus1

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MTS2000des and kayn1n32008. There is a reason they are on the admin side of things, they know their ****.
Is that why they are admins ? Is there a vetting process ? I get the impression that being a 'team player' and high post count puts one in a higher level.. Just playing the advocate....
 

rapidcharger

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The poll has closed and I'm not sure if anyone else can see the results but it ended in pretty much a tie.
We'll never really know how many participants were among those asked to participate and how many weren't but what I can tell you is that I didn't vote in it and it's safe to say there's probably 2 ineligibles that cast a vote in the poll. Clearly a lot of people want extended talk time and that comes as no surprise to me. There are circumstances where any signal is better than no signal at all in my opinion.

To those of you who put or have put your lives on the line to protect others, thank you and thank you for participating in my poll.

I may have other poll questions for you in the future when my schedule permits so I look forward to possibly seeing your votes on those future poll questions too.
 

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kv6o

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This is a very strange question. In general, the end users of public safety radio equipment don't know how it works - PTT/RTL (Push to talk, release to listen) is about it. The dead battery warning should alert the user, and the radio should continue to function as it was. Changing the PO can change it's coverage - that's a no-no. Should we be making police cars and fire trucks run at 20MPH when the fuel light comes on?

No.

The indicator is all an enduser needs. They DON'T need someone screwing with how it operates because the battery is low.
 

rapidcharger

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This is a very strange question. In general, the end users of public safety radio equipment don't know how it works - PTT/RTL (Push to talk, release to listen) is about it.

That's pretty insulting.
I asked users and not the radio admins who sit in relative safety while getting a higher salary as they insinuate their users are dumdums. What a disconnect.

Should we be making police cars and fire trucks run at 20MPH when the fuel light comes on?

No.

The indicator is all an enduser needs. They DON'T need someone screwing with how it operates because the battery is low.

What if the fire truck doesn't need to go over 20mph? Then would you rather it stop or get where it needs to go? If my house was on fire, I'd rather it get on the scene a little slower than not at all. There could be a fuel leak, faulty instrumentation. Having the truck just stall while it is motion is very dangerous.

Your analogy wasn't very good since with vehicles you have to keep your eye on the gauge /display. The needle may be on "E" or "R" depending on the make but there's always a reserve. It's really more like that. It doesn't just break down when it gets to E.
 
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