Range of 2 meter vs MURS vs marine band

[MLee3008]

Just starting to look at options to communicate between a canoe or kayak and a home on the lake.

Long story - Started out with the basic bubble pack variety, realized that would probably be a waste of money, then moved on to GMRS, MURS, and marine band. The lake is Cherokee Lake in east Tennessee and I don't know how much marine band is used there but assuming it would be nice to have a marine radio eventually when we get a boat.

Top priority would be watercraft to home, so while I hear people bend the rules ship to shore conversation along the lines of "When are you going to come in for the day and what do you want for dinner" isn't legal. Second would be water safety.

As an unscientific test I took a pair of GMRS 4 watt and MURS 2 watt radios down to test. The terrain is hilly (Think in a cove) and tree covered where the house is but I was surprised that both bands worked really well when talking to my wife who was around on the main part of the lake.

The more I read the more I got interested in amateur radio in general, and the advantages of getting a license are clear. But back to my original question, if I got a license and could do 2 meter would it be a stronger option as far as coverage compared to marine and MURS, or are they all VHF so the performance around water, hills, and trees would pretty much be the same? I'm thinking a base station of 2 meter would trump using handhelds, but HOA restrictions would limit the size of antenna I could use.

Sorry for such a long post but trying to give as much info as I can to get some advice from experienced people.

 

[n2nov]

Just starting to look at options to communicate between a canoe or kayak and a home on the lake.

Long story - Started out with the basic bubble pack variety, realized that would probably be a waste of money, then moved on to GMRS, MURS, and marine band. The lake is Cherokee Lake in east Tennessee and I don't know how much marine band is used there but assuming it would be nice to have a marine radio eventually when we get a boat.

Top priority would be watercraft to home, so while I hear people bend the rules ship to shore conversation along the lines of "When are you going to come in for the day and what do you want for dinner" isn't legal. Second would be water safety.

As an unscientific test I took a pair of GMRS 4 watt and MURS 2 watt radios down to test. The terrain is hilly (Think in a cove) and tree covered where the house is but I was surprised that both bands worked really well when talking to my wife who was around on the main part of the lake.

The more I read the more I got interested in amateur radio in general, and the advantages of getting a license are clear. But back to my original question, if I got a license and could do 2 meter would it be a stronger option as far as coverage compared to marine and MURS, or are they all VHF so the performance around water, hills, and trees would pretty much be the same? I'm thinking a base station of 2 meter would trump using handhelds, but HOA restrictions would limit the size of antenna I could use.

Sorry for such a long post but trying to give as much info as I can to get some advice from experienced people.

Since MURS, VHF Marine and 2 meter amateur radio are all within 15 Mhz of each other, for the exact same power level, antenna type and antenna height then the range will be the same. Legal issues are important as you mentioned about the Marine VHF restrictions on shore stations. For total flexibility, I would recommend all involved in the family get at least a Technician class license. Low cost HTs that give 5 watts would be usable in your scenario and for local repeaters as well.

 

[jaspence]

With MURS, you are limited in power, type of radio (handheld is most common), and available frequencies. Marine band allows more power and equipment choices but should only be used in boating situations on the water. 2 meter ham radios have many choices of equipment and power of most mobile units is around 50 watts, giving potentially greater range. The 2 meter radios can also be used with repeaters, extending range through computer links to most of the world with the right equipment.

 

[mmckenna]

if I got a license and could do 2 meter would it be a stronger option as far as coverage compared to marine and MURS, or are they all VHF so the performance around water, hills, and trees would pretty much be the same? I'm thinking a base station of 2 meter would trump using handhelds, but HOA restrictions would limit the size of antenna I could use.

Power levels being the same, you won't notice any range difference between 2 meters, MURS and VHF Marine.

Increasing power output doesn't increase range as much as some might think. In other words, going from a 2 watt MURS hand held to a 4 watt 2 meter or marine handheld does not double your range.

Propagation of the radio waves plays into this quite a bit. VHF, UHF and higher tend to be line of sight. In other words if the two antennas can see each other, then you can talk. VHF does benefit from "knife edge refraction" which will help get around some obstacles, but it's not reliable and shouldn't be counted on. VHF can work better in rolling hills/heavily wooded areas a bit.

What really makes a difference is getting the antennas up as high as you can. I know you said there were HOA restrictions, but figuring out how you can get the base antenna up as high as possible will improve coverage more than anything. The higher up the antenna is, the farther it can see.


So, a 25 watt marine VHF mounted in your boat will work about as well as a 50 watt 2 meter amateur radio, if they are using similar antennas.

Where the benefits of the two come in:
If most others on the lake are using VHF marine, then there's a benefit to being on the same channels. That might mean you can get help easier in an emergency. Being able to call someone if you are out of gas, stuck on a sandbar, engine trouble, or being able to respond to someone else who is, has a lot of benefit.
Yeah, the rules regarding VHF use on land do get in the way here. NOT saying you should ignore the FCC rules...

2 meter amateur would give you access to repeaters that may be in your area. Many (not all) amateur radio repeaters are open, in that any licensed amateur can use them. Those will greatly increase your range. Drawback is that if none of the other boaters are using it, you won't be able to get help or provide help using it unless you have a VHF marine radio.
Amateur radio also requires that every person who uses the radio get their own license. Maybe not an issue for most, but not everyone wants to study/take the test. The test isn't difficult, but the technical knowledge isn't everyones cup of tea.

If it was me (and I hold an amateur radio license), I'd probably go the VHF marine route. In a true emergency, getting help from other boaters can be important. So can having a cell phone, for that matter.

Kind of a question you'll need to answer. Important part is that antenna height is key. Don't expect outstanding coverage from a couple of hand held radios down on ground/water level.

 

[chief21]

GMRS is another option. A single license (good for ten years) would cover most of your family and would allow more TX power (up to 50 watts) on eight designated UHF channels. Repeaters are also permitted.

If all of your operators were hams, your choices would be vastly improved. You could choose from numerous (and uncrowded) VHF or UHF frequencies and, as already mentioned, repeaters could be available, as well. The amateur Technician test is easy to pass with just a bit of study.

 

[mmckenna]

Yeah, I agree, GMRS doesn't have the shore use restrictions of Marine VHF. A good mobile/base set up at each end with a moderately sized UHF antenna would work well.

I still favor VHF marine radio, at least a hand held, on a boat as a fall back.

 

[Analog-Surf-1963]

Boat radio's on channel 68 your well within the guidlines.
I live in New Bedford ma on the water with a harbor.
I hear all kinds of VHF traffic all day.

Pete N1EXA

 

[MLee3008]

Thanks to all for taking the time to answer my newbie type questions, and my first post here.

I've started studying for the technician license because the more I read about amateur the more interested I became. Probably not the solution to my original question as I doubt the wife would take the time to get her license but I think it would be worth it and a fun hobby. Lots to learn though!

Most of what I read said VHF outdoors is the way to go, as well as the possibility of other boats having VHF as well, but GMRS would solve the license issue for the family, and if I could get a base station with a decent antenna that could be the answer.

Thanks again for the discussion at a level I could understand.

 

[DeepBlue]

For really good coverage from Amateur 2-meter or 440, get a very small beam at the house and point it toward the lake. If you use a 2 or 3 element beam the width will likely be wide enough to cover the lake sufficiently (I don't know the actual size) or put a 5/8th wave or better vertical on the house at line of sight height if possible, trees not withstanding, and you should be set. Realize too that you can use more than a 5 watt HT on the boat but it requires batteries (like a deep cycle trawling motor battery, hint hint) or similar and take it to 10 watts - respect for others asks you to attempt with the minimum required power to make a solid contact. Note too that a mobile/battery/antenna setup is likely a bad idea in a Kayak. Should you be restricted in antennas at the home, look at Ventenna or a hidden antenna in the attic, etc. It will work and Amateur will be worth it, more fun, practical and a good hobby. There WAS a Standard/Horizon marine radio that was able to be programmed for Amateur. I had one when I had my Kayak. I believe it may have been this one:
Welcome to StandardHorizon.com

Standard/Horizon HX270S - be sure to see if you can still find the programming software for it. Looks like there is a direct link to the software on the web page. : )
Google may be helpful and look for a Yahoo Group on that radio as well if interested.

As others have said, FRS and MURS are restricted by antenna types and heights as well as output power. GMRS is similar but not as restricted. VHF Marine has no Ship-to-Shore sadly as I recall. I think.

S.

 

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

MLee, I'd vote for the Marine Band-- for all the reasons eloquently explained above about range, no license, antennas, transmitter power etc.
The big plus for me is Channel 16.

16 is a serious frequency and if you need help that's going to be the radio to use.


As far as talking to shore, it is permitted.
From the FCC Part 80 regulations pertaining to VHF:

NONCOMMERCIAL - Working channels for voluntary boats. Messages must be about the needs of the ship. Typical uses include fishing reports, rendezvous,scheduling repairs and berthing information. Use Channels 67 and 72 only for ship-to-ship messages.
Channels 9, 67, 68, 69, 71, 72, 78, 79, 80

If your home is on the lake shore, set it up as a marina. Monitor 16 in the off hours- your boating friends will like that.

On a personal note, when working in the Pacific we used Channels 68 and 69 all the time, both to contact shore stations and for our research ship-to-shore parties....... ("Uh, ..Guys.... Guys !.... will someone send a boat over here to pick me up?... Guys ??..!. )

No big deal-- its what the regulations allow. **

Lauri

_______________________________________
**US waters- not to construed otherwise

also:
Ship Radio Stations
.
.

 

[MLee3008]

Lauri, good to know some limited conversation with the home base is acceptable. Thanks.

If that's the case both priorities can be solved with a good marine band HT while canoeing or paddle boarding, then I can start looking into amateur equipment for a beginner.

Can you all tell I'm pretty new at this?

 

[mmckenna]

Can you all tell I'm pretty new at this?

We were all new at one time...

The other benefit to marine VHF radios is that they are often designed for that environment. For small craft, canoes, kayaks, etc. a water resistant or waterproof VHF portable can be a good investment.
Plus, they can be found pretty cheap.

 

[nd5y]

If you install a marine radio in a fixed location on land you need a coast station license.
The rule change a few years ago allowing land use within 3 miles of water is only for hand held radios.

 

[wtp]

get a radio that floats.

 

[ladn]

I've started studying for the technician license because the more I read about amateur the more interested I became. Probably not the solution to my original question as I doubt the wife would take the time to get her license but I think it would be worth it and a fun hobby. Lots to learn though!

That's a good start! Once you have your amateur license, you could purchase a VHF radio that's Part 90 accepted (a commercial radio as opposed to an amateur radio) that you can program with both marine and amateur frequencies.

 

[mmckenna]

That's a good start! Once you have your amateur license, you could purchase a VHF radio that's Part 90 accepted (a commercial radio as opposed to an amateur radio) that you can program with both marine and amateur frequencies.

Marine use requires Part 80, not part 90. Not that anyone would notice. But it is easy to get radios that cover Part 90 and Part 80. Most of the newer Kenwood VHF professional radios will have both. It is up to the guy programming the radio to make sure use/power/emissions, etc. fall within the requirements of the Part 80 rules.

And most modern/new VHF commercial radios will not do wide band FM due to the narrow banding requirements. Kenwood would allow you to get a W-license that would open that up on some radios, but the newer ones don't always allow that.

 

[56FB666]

How about GMRS + marine VHF

Dual Band Marine VHF and GMRS Radio - Uniden

 

[AK_SAR]

One more vote for a marine handheld. You want one that is IPX-7 rated, which means it can be submerged to one meter depth for 30 minutes, and still function. Some of them will float.

We used to own a sailboat. These days, we mostly sea kayak. In mellow conditions, my Icom marine handheld mostly lives in a waterproof padded cover, in the deck bag on my kayak. The cover protects it from getting banged around, and floats. If the paddling pucker factor is slightly higher, I take it out of the cover, and carry it in a pocket on my PFD, where it is instantly available. If the paddling pucker factor is more than slightly elevated, I'm not paddling. I'm camped on shore, enjoying a nice fire, and glass of wine!

As others have noted, don't expect a lot of range from a handheld. I think the range estimates that manufacturers sometimes quote assume you are standing on the deck of a boat, with the radio at least 6 feet above the water. If you are in a canoe, kayak, or small skiff, your range will be quite limited. Getting the antenna higher will generally get you more range than using more watts.

 

[k6cpo]

get a radio that floats.

There's the advantage of a marine VHF handheld. Most are waterproof and some will float if dropped overboard.

 

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

If you install a marine radio in a fixed location on land you need a coast station license.
The rule change a few years ago allowing land use within 3 miles of water is only for hand held radios. nd5y


Ah Yes.....

So, I ran it past my "legislative assistant" aka Patty, my Right Hand ..... And with a telephone call to her FCC sources she informs me that, indeed, a land station license is required.
However, she adds, its not out of the question for an individual to qualify as a "Marina" under Part 80.501 (Subpart K—Private Coast Stations and Marine Utility Stations.) But its not easy. Read the Part...........

Whether its worth the effort is a personal matter... (I'd personally just use a radio affixed to a slightly better base antenna than a "duck" for my shore station) .... but this can get as elaborate as your imagination.

Still, all-in-all, for a kayak on a lake talking back to shore, the Marine Band-- equipment wise, range, license free requirements etc. make it the ideal choice.

............................wish I liked kayak'ing............



Lauri