Range of 2 meter vs MURS vs marine band

[AK9R]

How many of you have spent much time around these lakes (impoundments) in eastern KY or TN? Most of them were formed by damming streams in hilly areas. As a result, these lakes have lots of little coves that connect to the main body of the lake. There may be fairly high ridges between these coves. If the OP's "marina" or base station is on one cove and the boat is on another cove, line of sight communication may be a challenge. A repeater may be necessary. I don't think repeaters are allowed in Part 80, but I could be wrong. I know repeaters are allowed in Part 90, Part 95E (GMRS), and Part 97. Something to consider.

 

[DeepBlue]

As I am not a rule bender, I would still vote for a programmable Marine HT as I mentioned above. Can do double duty as a ham HT and is absolutely built for work around water. The restrictions on attempting to qualify a non-lake front home as a Marina is pushing the boundries for me.

We all do what we want in the end. My 2 cents is what it's worth.

Sean
KB8JNE
(licensed ex-broadcaster and extra hammy.)

 

[mmckenna]

I don't think repeaters are allowed in Part 80, but I could be wrong. I know repeaters are allowed in Part 90, Part 95E (GMRS), and Part 97. Something to consider.

Marine VHF repeaters are allowed, but it requires a license (not covered by the recreational user license by rule).

But I think setting up a true Part 80 repeater would be a bit out of scope for a new user. Plus it would make using commercial off the shelf marine VHF radios out of the question (unless you really wanted to run CSQ on a repeater).

The terrain on lakes like that can be rough, very similar to the lakes here in California in the mountains. However, I've been surprised how well marine VHF has worked in some of those locations. I wouldn't rule out simplex VHF until it's been tried. It's not going to cover everywhere, but nothing that's cost effective is going to. Controlling expectations would be key.

 

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

The restrictions on attempting to qualify a non-lake front home as a Marina is pushing the boundries for me. DeepBlue


And for this discussion, I completely agree.

This morning I walked in to find a complete printout of Part 80—"Stations in the Maritime Services".... sitting on my desk.
That will teach me to be careful about the questions I ask.

Part 80 is pretty heavy reading and I just scanned it briefly. I mentioned operating as a "Marina" since my visits to Annapolis usually involve someone taking me out on the Chesapeake Bay.
It seems every Captain Crusty's Crab House has a VHF shore-side radio, and of course I can't ignore the radios. I never hear callsigns, and I have doubted they have, or needed, Coast Station licenses.

Personally, I think that a modest portable shore station used so infrequently will attract no attention.... but that's me... emptor caveat.

Meanwhile, reading a few pages of Part 80 appears a perfect cure for insomnia.


Lauri

 

[MLee3008]

Thanks again for all the input, helps to reinforce some of what I've researched and nice to hear from those who have actual experience.

I tend to agree with Lauri, occasional use of a portable "shore station" as in the wife walks out on the deck with a HT, and may or may not hook up to a better antenna, to tell me if I'm still alive dinner is ready is probably not going to be interfering with anyone else on channel 68 or 69.

Only post I've found that relates to the lake I'm talking about was one about some fisherman where they say they hail on channel 9 then to go 68 to discuss where they are biting. At least I know someone uses marine band there and maybe (I know a big maybe per W9BU's accurate description of this lake) could hear a distress call.

Like mmckenna I was surprised that both GMRS and MURS performed well between a heavily treed lot, out of the cove/over a hill about 1/2 mile away.

I'm still stuck on trying to find a solution that covers most of the priorities and some wish list items. For instance getting my amateur license, building a modest base station, then using waterproof HTs like the Yaesu VX-6R, and down the road adding a mobile unit for the truck would cover all the bases. But then who will be listening for me to capsize and lose my paddle, and convincing my wife to get her license to legally talk to me may be a show stopper.

Here's a picture of the challenge. My unscientific test was from in the woods half way down the hill to the lake to the cul de sac over by the marina in the upper right hand corner.

 

[mmckenna]

A couple of points...

-VHF Marine is the right tool for the job. This is what it's designed to do. The change in the rules that permits use ashore a few years ago just legalized what most were doing already.
A portable radio with a decent antenna at your home will do a lot.

-No single radio service is going to cover absolutely every situation. Multiple forms of communications would be a good idea. Chances are you already have a cell phone. While coverage on the lake may not be perfect, chances are there's some, and calling your wife, friend, 911, etc. are all options. Get a waterproof box to keep it safe on your kayak.

-If getting help in a true emergency is one of the desired options, then this is where a Personal Locator Beacon comes in. That is -exactly- what they are designed for. Hobbyists will come up with all kinds of reason why they don't want to use those, and they are all B.S. A PLB will run you about $200 and will get you help nearly anywhere on the planet. Again, this is one of the "right tool for the job" items.

-Amateur radio is a good option, but as for relying on it in an emergency...
There is no guarantee that anyone will be listening. It is a hobby service. There is no requirements that anyone be listening to any specific frequency at any specific time. Yes, there are often people out there to talk to, but it is NOT an emergency radio service and should NOT be relied upon to get help in an emergency.

-You will -never- have 100% radio coverage. Ever. You can spend thousands of dollars on equipment, repeaters, etc. but nothing is going to work everywhere every time. A PLB is about as close as you can get.

-GMRS is often overlooked, but it is only as good as the system you build. Because of PL/DPL tones, there is no guarantee that anyone else will hear you.

-You should not base anything off your wife getting her amateur radio license. If she doesn't want to, don't force her. I was fortunate in that my wife got hers. It's handy, but I do not expect her to be sitting by the radio 24x7 waiting for my call. That's why we have cell phones.

-Radios are only useful if there is someone listening on the other end. No amount of radios, technology, repeaters, etc. is going to mean squat if there is not someone on the other end. There will always be someone answering 911. PLB/EPRIBS will always get a response.

-Relying on a radio as your only safety net in an emergency is never a good idea. Radios do not replace being prepared, having the right skills, or having the tools to get you out of a bad situation. A radio should be one of the tools in your toolbox. Not your only tool.

 

[MLee3008]

Good points, all of them. Thanks for taking the time to reiterate them.

I tend to err on the cautious side, the wife assumes the worst will happen. To that end she will always know where I'm headed, I'l have my life jacket on, and thankfully my daredevil days ended before everyone carried a camera and social media..... A radio is just another layer of comfort zone I can add for her.

 

[mmckenna]

I hear you. My daredevil days are behind me, but I'm getting old enough that stupid stuff still happens without me trying. Cell phone and radio follow me where ever I go. If I'm really way off grid for work, I carry a satellite phone. For way off grid personal stuff, a PLB.

 

[bill4long]

Nobody mentioned CB. 15 watts SSB, plus moves around terrain better than VHF/UHF bands.
Would be interesting to see how that performs around his lake.
Having said that, I would definitely have a marine band radio no matter what else you do.

 

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

Nobody mentioned CB.................

Probably it wasn't mentioned becuz 11 metre's and kayak's don't mix well. An antenna that would be efficient at 27 MHz is going to be an ungainly monster- What, ? -- a 108" whip, and that's not throwing in a counterpoise of some sort. We're not even discussing any matching issues, like SWR ... or a power source.... or ......


I have painful memories of once using low band Motorola HT's with their foot and a half long 'rubber ducky antennas.' They were about as efficient as a loud hail'er PA as far as talking distances.
And these were in the 40 meg range... at 27, with an AM handheld,- no counterpoise to speak of - the efficiency drops to 'Piffle.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


..................my daredevil days ended ..... A radio is just another layer of comfort zone I can add.........

I applaud that MLee.....

Happy kayak'ing Cowboy.....


Lauri

 

[alcahuete]

Nobody mentioned CB. 15 watts SSB, plus moves around terrain better than VHF/UHF bands.
Would be interesting to see how that performs around his lake.
Having said that, I would definitely have a marine band radio no matter what else you do.

The problem with that is that handheld CBs (which he would need to use in the boat) are incredibly bad.

 

[mmckenna]

And no one wants to listen to the garbage on CB, especially when you are out on the lake trying to relax.

We used CB's on boats for a while, and gave them up for VHF marine. A VHF Marine 25 watt radio performed better than a 4 watt AM CB. We never tried SSB, though.

 

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

-If getting help in a true emergency is one of the desired options, then this is where a Personal Locator Beacon comes in.
mmckenna

I have one minor criticism of the PLB in MLee's case.

If he needs help, kayak'ing -- its going to require a fast response. I have nevr' used an EPIRB, or a PLB (though I have carried them many 'a time)-- If they are activated, as in his case, what could he expect as a response time ? I would hope they'd effect a rescue, not a recovery.
............and I am hardly critical of these beacons


Looking at that satellite photo of your operational area, MLee-- there is a Marina nearby, No ? Do those guys have a VHF shore radio ?....

Also, we are not talking East Borneo here.
I now change my choices to a 'cel phone in a water tight containers as the primary safety device (after what's between my ears, followed by my PFD )-- and then a Marine Band HT.

Hey, a thought provoking topic !



Lauri
.

 

[bill4long]

Nobody mentioned CB.................

Probably it wasn't mentioned becuz 11 metre's and kayak's don't mix well. An antenna that would be efficient at 27 MHz is going to be an ungainly monster- What, ? -- a 108" whip, and that's not throwing in a counterpoise of some sort. We're not even discussing any matching issues, like SWR ... or a power source.... or ......


I have painful memories of once using low band Motorola HT's with their foot and a half long 'rubber ducky antennas.' They were about as efficient as a loud hail'er PA as far as talking distances.
And these were in the 40 meg range... at 27, with an AM handheld,- no counterpoise to speak of - the efficiency drops to 'Piffle.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


..................my daredevil days ended ..... A radio is just another layer of comfort zone I can add.........

I applaud that MLee.....

Happy kayak'ing Cowboy.....


Lauri

Wilson 1000 mobile antenna about 4 feet long. Not too bad. My chopped one (tuned for 10 meters amateur) has talked 'round the world when the band has been open. Admittedly, could be a bit much for a kayak.

 

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

Even a 4 foot antenna on a kayak is out of the question.
And I have kayak'd lakes, streams and many a white water**.......... you don't want anything like that sprouting from your boat.

Four foot is, what, an 1/8 wave ?... and where is the counterpoise ?

Plus MLee only wants to call home, not talk around the world thru a jungle of CB skip...........

CB-- A very Very Bad Idea


Lauri

______________________________________________________________________________


** The gods gave me my kayak'ing insight- and another chance at life--

After I took a deadly spill in White Horse rapids- in the Yukon, I continued to kayak for awhile afterwards. But I realized if I continued it was doing so on borrowed time.

If it hadn't been for a dear friend, you all would not be reading this--- she plucked me, literally from the arms of the Reaper; I was clinging helpless to a rock,-- by boat smashed, my PFD in shreds, half drowned and near hypothermic shock ......)
.
.

 

[MLee3008]

Lauri - the marina you see in the picture is owned by the HOA and unmanned, just slips you can buy with the lots. There is a marina to the left Not in the picture) behind a hill of heavily treed 50 some odd acres of TVA owned land that may use VHF but chances of a handheld getting there are pretty slim.

Cell phone is always a possibility but on the lot at best we get one bar, most of the time it's no service. We'll make calls via internet thru the cable service. Not sure how it will be on the lake.

I really do appreciate all the thought you all are putting into this on my behalf. Glad I came here looking for help.

Mark

 

[mmckenna]

There is a marina to the left Not in the picture) behind a hill of heavily treed 50 some odd acres of TVA owned land that may use VHF but chances of a handheld getting there are pretty slim.

Cell phone is always a possibility but on the lot at best we get one bar, most of the time it's no service. We'll make calls via internet thru the cable service. Not sure how it will be on the lake.

So, using clues, I figured out where that is.

Hilly, so you are going to have coverage challenges, no matter what. Even if you went with GMRS and had the money/tech chops to put up your own repeater, you'd have a hard time covering all those coves on that lake. A well placed VHF repeater might stand a chance, but locations for equipment like that can be expensive, not to mention the cost of purchase, installation, set up, licensing, etc.

Marine VHF and figure out what channels the locals use. You'll probably find that there's a common channel used by most of those that frequent the lake. That's been my experience from the larger lakes here. Call around to the local marinas especially if they have a repair shop, they make a fair amount of money "rescuing" broken down boats and towing them back for repairs/fuel. They'll have a preferred channel you can call them on.
For everything else, cellular. I bet if you got out in the middle of the lake you'd have coverage. Looking at your location from the map/photo you included, there's no surprise that call phone coverage is a challenge.

 

[KC5AKB]

Thanks to all for taking the time to answer my newbie type questions, and my first post here.

I've started studying for the technician license because the more I read about amateur the more interested I became. Probably not the solution to my original question as I doubt the wife would take the time to get her license but I think it would be worth it and a fun hobby. Lots to learn though!

Most of what I read said VHF outdoors is the way to go, as well as the possibility of other boats having VHF as well, but GMRS would solve the license issue for the family, and if I could get a base station with a decent antenna that could be the answer.

Thanks again for the discussion at a level I could understand.

Would be glad to talk with you and answer some questions.

 

[KC5AKB]

Would be glad to talk with you and answer some questions.

The e mail is kc5akb@arrl.net
If you get 1 bar on your cell signal send a text . A short text will get through with very little signal . The PLB is the best thing for a real emergency! I am around a few kayak folks that keep a snack and water bag even a old extra cheep cell phone with a charged battery sealed in zip lock bag in a plastic water proof box with stuff to start a fire and a Pancho with enough air to float . A phone with out service can still call 911 in case you main phone will not work or is lost . I do fish and am in areas with out cell service.
I also understand weight is a issue.
Here are some ham links.
Www.w5yi.org
Www.hamstudy.org
Www.arrl.org
Www.qrz.com
Antennas are a key factor to consider.
If using handheld radios keep the antenna vertical holding if at a angle when talking makes a difference on the signal .
Later,
Ric

 

[AK_SAR]

A PLB has been suggested for emergency use. Another option is a Garmin InReach. There are pros and cons to both the PLB and the InReach.

The PLB is the most robust, sure thing for sending a pure SOS message. They use the COSPAS-SARSAT satellites. They have two redundant ways of locating your position. They have an internal GPS, and will transmit you location with 100 meter accuracy. They can also locate your position to within ~2 kilometers using Doppler. This is useful in case for any reason the device can't get a good GPS fix, for example if you are in heavy tree cover. And they transmit at 5 watts. However, they DO NOT have any other message capability, other than sending an SOS with your location. The one time cost is ~$250 (no subscription required).

The InReach uses the Iridium satellites, and relies on a GPS fix (no back up Doppler capability). They transmit with 1.6 watts. The big advantage is that InReach is a two way message system. You can send and receive short text messages. Obviously this is useful for many reasons. For example, if you are delayed, but not in any real trouble, you can send a text to your spouse something like "All OK, just moving slow, will be 4 hours late getting home." On the other hand, in a real emergency you can send a text detailing the problem (injured?, how many people need help? can we wait for daylight or better weather for a rescue? etc etc). And the rescue team can text you back with instructions. Cost is ~$350-$450, plus an annual subscription (minimum $12/month). Don't buy a used device, get a new one. The DeLorme and early Garmin devices had a defect that could accidently send an SOS if it got bumped in your pack (rare, but it happened on occaision).

There are also the SPOT devices, with a variety of capabilities. I would stay away from them, as they seem to have a spotty record of reliability.