Range of 2 meter vs MURS vs marine band

[zerg901]

Maybe a megaphone would be a better solution. I am not kidding. Just saw a recent video of Tokyo FD in operation. At least 1 commander had a power megaphone hanging around his neck.

Does the TVA or Sheriff patrol that lake at all? Who provides Search and Rescue? A public/private cooperative effort with the HOA and abutters could fund a repeater or maybe a new cellsite for the area.

Really is a shame that you can buy $10 HTs but not be able to get full use out of them.

 

[mmckenna]

The PLB is the most robust, sure thing for sending a pure SOS message.

We use these. Better track record, no ongoing subscription costs. Does require a trip to the shop for battery replacement every 5 years, which can be expensive. Some tutorials on line about replacing batteries yourself, although I've never tried.
406.1MHz seems to work pretty well for this.

The InReach uses the Iridium satellites, and relies on a GPS fix (no back up Doppler capability). They transmit with 1.6 watts.

So, my question with these is something I've not had time to research. I use an Iridium phone at work when working off the grid. I know if I don't have a really clear view of the sky, the phone will not connect. Overhead tree cover can cause calls to fail.

I have not researched if the InReach uses the same frequencies (or frequency range) as the phones, and if they'd be impacted by the tree cover like the Iridium phones are. Until I figure that out, I've avoided these. I like the idea, but since I'm usually in heavily wooded areas, I'm not sure I'd rely on it in an emergency. But, in a kayak on a lake probably wouldn't be much of an issue.

There are also the SPOT devices, with a variety of capabilities. I would stay away from them, as they seem to have a spotty record of reliability.

We ride with a guy who has one of these. It's served him well. But I've heard horror stories about their customer service. The devices also don't appear to be as durable as the PLB's.

I'm in the market for something to augment the PLB we have, and I'd like the ability to do periodic "I'm OK" type check in's. I need to research, or hear from someone who knows, how the InReach and Spot! devices work under heavy foliage.

 

[mmckenna]

Maybe a megaphone would be a better solution. I am not kidding. Just saw a recent video of Tokyo FD in operation. At least 1 commander had a power megaphone hanging around his neck.

Yeah, megaphone would be an option, but kind of big to carry on a kayak. Signal horns will work, smaller, and often required as a "signaling" device under some rules.

Flares are an option, too. But they require being in view of someone who's actually paying attention. They work better at night, which might not be the ideal solution for a kayak user. Smoke canisters work amazingly well and tend to draw more attention during the day.
Signal mirrors are cheap, easy and effective. I've previously used these in training with excellent results. We were in Alaska doing our periodic multi day survival training. We were playing with the signal mirrors and received a message from the air field 10 miles away that they could see us (and please stop, it was distracting them).

Sometimes the cheap/easy solutions are best. Less to go wrong.

Really is a shame that you can buy $10 HTs but not be able to get full use out of them.

Amateur radio licenses are free for lifetime (requires free renewal every 10 years). Only cost is what the examiners charge for administering the original test/postage.

 

[Rred]

I think all marine handhelds in the US have had DSC for 15? years now. you have an emergency, you press the button, it transmits your position and sets off alarms on all similarly equipped radios. No other service is going to give you that option.

I'm guessing there's no cell service to phone the cabin with?

 

[Rred]

mmc-
I haven't replaced PLB batteries but have replaced EPIRB batteries. The manufacturers usually make it very difficult, but once you figure out the case screws and find a battery number, it is still just changing a battery. Often with power connection will be something you have to move onto the new battery pack, and there may be an o-ring or other parts that should be replaced, and of course, you may have to scrounge for those.
It isn't a job for everyone, but then again, lots of folks think changing a spare tire is incredibly complicated and dangerous too. (And if you ever had a GM car fall off a bumper jack...yeah, it can be dangerous.)

 

[mmckenna]

I think all marine handhelds in the US have had DSC for 15? years now. you have an emergency, you press the button, it transmits your position and sets off alarms on all similarly equipped radios. No other service is going to give you that option.

Not all Marine VHF portables have that. Most 25 watt hard mount radios do, though.

For the marine VHF portables, it requires a GPS to send out location data. Not all of them have built in GPS's.

 

[mmckenna]

mmc-
I haven't replaced PLB batteries but have replaced EPIRB batteries. The manufacturers usually make it very difficult, but once you figure out the case screws and find a battery number, it is still just changing a battery. Often with power connection will be something you have to move onto the new battery pack, and there may be an o-ring or other parts that should be replaced, and of course, you may have to scrounge for those.

Yeah, that's what I saw in the videos. I've been toying with the idea of buying a cheap used one off e-Bay and trying it out before I do it on a "real" one.
I know the one we have is a fairly expensive lithium battery (probably useable well past 5 years…)

 

[MLee3008]

Thanks for explaining all the emergency options. I do need to do my homework and find out a little more about rescue and patrol on the lake. When we move down there permanently any of the options you all recommend will be good for a boat as well.

Guess I'm still tying to determine the best long term solution for my watercraft/home base comm - based on the fact I'm headed towards an amateur license I'd like to sink money into that option if feasible rather than build out two options, say an amateur and a GMRS, but if marine band is the best for the lake then separate equipment it will be.

 

[AK_SAR]

So, my question with these is something I've not had time to research. I use an Iridium phone at work when working off the grid. I know if I don't have a really clear view of the sky, the phone will not connect. Overhead tree cover can cause calls to fail.
I have not researched if the InReach uses the same frequencies (or frequency range) as the phones, and if they'd be impacted by the tree cover like the Iridium phones are. Until I figure that out, I've avoided these. I like the idea, but since I'm usually in heavily wooded areas, I'm not sure I'd rely on it in an emergency. But, in a kayak on a lake probably wouldn't be much of an issue.

Failure to connect, and dropped calls with Iridium sat phones are an issue. It is not really such a problem with texts or SOS messages from the InReach, for reasons explained below.

The reason calls drop is most often because no Iridium satellite is visible to the phone. Even with their world wide constellation of satellites, there are times when no satellite is visible above the horizon. It becomes a bigger problem at higher latitudes. A Ham friend of mine found some software and was able to calculate satellite coverage. He calculated for the latitude of Anchorage, how long each day there would be no satellites more than 20 degrees above the horizon (lots of mountains around here). If I remember correctly it worked out to about 3 hours total, out of 24 hours. That 3 hours was broken into small chunks ( a minute here....a minute or so there). If you happened to try to make a call during those brief time intervals you would not connect. And if you were talking, your call would drop.

The reason it isn't such a problem with the InReach is that it can work in an asynchronous manner. If you enter a text message, or trigger the SOS function, the InReach tries to send it immediately. But if no satellite is visible, the device will keep trying until one comes above the horizon. In a minute or two or three when a satellite is visible, your message will go out. The device then gives you a confirmation that your message has been successfully sent.

I'm in the market for something to augment the PLB we have, and I'd like the ability to do periodic "I'm OK" type check in's. I need to research, or hear from someone who knows, how the InReach and Spot! devices work under heavy foliage.

Heavy foliage is an issue with any GPS device. The signal from the GPS satellites (it takes 4 for a good fix) is very weak by the time it gets to your device. It doesn't take much green stuff to attenuate the signal. I've found there is a noticable range of sensitivities between various GPS devices. My old Garmin Etrex didn't work well even under fairly light foliage. My newer Garmin 62 does much better. My iPhone also works pretty well, even with foliage overhead. I think it depends on the sensitivity of the antenna. I haven't used my new InReach long enough to get a valid comparison, though I'd be surprised if it wasn't at least as good as the 62 or iPhone.

EDIT: One other nice thing about the InReach is that you can tell it to send a periodic location and "I'm OK" message. Your spouse can then see where you are. And worst case, even if you are incapacitated and unable to trigger the SOS, at least searchers will know the last place you were. The downside is that using that tracking function costs more (you need a more expensive subscription to cover it).

 

[mmckenna]

Failure to connect, and dropped calls with Iridium sat phones are an issue. It is not really such a problem with texts or SOS messages from the InReach, for reasons explained below.
….
The reason it isn't such a problem with the InReach is that it can work in an asynchronous manner.

That's what concerns me. How long it takes to get a message out. Text messages wouldn't be a concern, but an SOS type message I'd want to go out pretty fast. Waiting for a satellite to be in view might be a problem depending on where I am, which is often in steep mountains.

Heavy foliage is an issue with any GPS device....

Yeah, that I understand. GPS location isn't as much as a concern if I can get an SOS out on 406. Getting someone on the way faster is the ultimate goal, even if it's without a GPS location and just using doppler shift. The higher frequencies of the Spot and Iridium devices is where my question lies. Logic/experience/science tells me that a 1.5GHz (or so) signal isn't going to pass through dense tree canopy as well as 406MHz will.

The Iridium messaging/SOS platform seems more like an after thought, as in "Hey, we can make it act like a PLB/EPRIB!" rather than a purpose built device. Fine if you are at sea, maybe not the best choice if you are deep in the Pacific Northwest rain forests.

In other words, I'm skeptical of the product. They are very light on information and details. Seems more like a SMS system with an "It'll get there when it gets there" approach rather than a dedicated emergency service.

 

[kayn1n32008]

That's what concerns me. How long it takes to get a message out. Text messages wouldn't be a concern, but an SOS type message I'd want to go out pretty fast. Waiting for a satellite to be in view might be a problem depending on where I am, which is often in steep mountains.



Yeah, that I understand. GPS location isn't as much as a concern if I can get an SOS out on 406. Getting someone on the way faster is the ultimate goal, even if it's without a GPS location and just using doppler shift. The higher frequencies of the Spot and Iridium devices is where my question lies. Logic/experience/science tells me that a 1.5GHz (or so) signal isn't going to pass through dense tree canopy as well as 406MHz will.

The Iridium messaging/SOS platform seems more like an after thought, as in "Hey, we can make it act like a PLB/EPRIB!" rather than a purpose built device. Fine if you are at sea, maybe not the best choice if you are deep in the Pacific Northwest rain forests.

In other words, I'm skeptical of the product. They are very light on information and details. Seems more like a SMS system with an "It'll get there when it gets there" approach rather than a dedicated emergency service.

Spot claims a 95+% rate of success in 20 minutes when triggering the SOS button.

I imagine Inreach is probably just as good.


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[kayn1n32008]

That's what concerns me. How long it takes to get a message out. Text messages wouldn't be a concern, but an SOS type message I'd want to go out pretty fast. Waiting for a satellite to be in view might be a problem depending on where I am, which is often in steep mountains.



Yeah, that I understand. GPS location isn't as much as a concern if I can get an SOS out on 406. Getting someone on the way faster is the ultimate goal, even if it's without a GPS location and just using doppler shift. The higher frequencies of the Spot and Iridium devices is where my question lies. Logic/experience/science tells me that a 1.5GHz (or so) signal isn't going to pass through dense tree canopy as well as 406MHz will.

The Iridium messaging/SOS platform seems more like an after thought, as in "Hey, we can make it act like a PLB/EPRIB!" rather than a purpose built device. Fine if you are at sea, maybe not the best choice if you are deep in the Pacific Northwest rain forests.

In other words, I'm skeptical of the product. They are very light on information and details. Seems more like a SMS system with an "It'll get there when it gets there" approach rather than a dedicated emergency service.

Also, GPS can give a position under tree cover(similar frequency) plus Iridium and GlobalStar satellites are in LEO, vs. 10,000-ish mile orbit that GPS/GLONASS satellites are in.

In my experience with SPOT was success getting confirmation emails from my previous employers life safety system in less than 10 minutes, consistently, even when under tree cover, with SPOT on my dash in my truck, that included an accurate GPS position when sending a ‘check in, OK beacon.

Global Star suffers from coverage issues near the north and south poles. Iridium has true global coverage.


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[mmckenna]

In my experience with SPOT was success getting confirmation emails from my previous employers life safety system in less than 10 minutes, consistently, even when under tree cover, with SPOT on my dash in my truck, that included an accurate GPS position when sending a ‘check in, OK beacon.

That sounds like what I need. Now if I could just get past the reports of poor customer service...

 

[AK_SAR]

That's what concerns me. How long it takes to get a message out. Text messages wouldn't be a concern, but an SOS type message I'd want to go out pretty fast. Waiting for a satellite to be in view might be a problem depending on where I am, which is often in steep mountains.

As I already stated up thread, for purely sending an SOS, the PLB will be the most sure fire reliable. But in actual experience, the InReach has achieved a very good track record in that regard. And even PLBs can sometimes be problematic in mountainous terrain, since they also need a satellite in view to send your SOS,

The lag time, if any, for sending messages or SOS via InReach seems to be typically on the order of a few minutes at most. And having been involved in wilderness SAR for many years, I can also say that having that two way messaging capability is extremely helpful for the SAR team who will come looing for you. Just being able to say "I need help, but I can wait till dawn" can avoid sending a helo or SAR team into a potentially dangerous situation. Some of our SAR teams have also used InReach with great success to communicate with the ICP on missions into remote areas. In general they seem to work better than Sat Phones for that.

I'm not dissing PLBs (I own one). But the InReach has proven to be working out very well, not only for routine texting, but also for SOS and emergency communication. InReach seems to be rapidly becoming the device of choice for hard core outdoors folks in Alaska.

No device is perfect. You pays your money, and makes your choice.

 

[AK_SAR]

EDIT: Outdoor Gear Lab has a side by side comparison of some options. I don't always agree with their methodology or conclusions, but it does make interesting reading:: Best Satellite Messengers and Personal Locator Beacons in 2019

 

[alcahuete]

Forgive me for asking a crazy question here, but how far out in a lake are you going to be in a Kayak where we are spending 3 pages talking about signal flares, PRBs, and Satellite Phones? We're not talking about the ocean here...we're talking about a small lake, and not even in a boat. This is a kayak! Are you really going to be so far away that if your boat sinks (which I assume is about the worst case scenario for a kayak), you can't just float back to shore with your life vest and walk home? I'm so very confused.

If you're just looking for comms. back to your house, it's really quite simple. You use a handheld something, your wife uses a base something at the house with a good antenna. Nobody is really going to know what that something will be unless you try it. Me personally, I would go Marine Radio, GMRS, MURS in that order, since your wife doesn't have her ham license. This is not 3 pages difficult.

 

[mmckenna]

This is not 3 pages difficult.

No, of course it isn't. And we pretty much established that in the first couple of posts.
But then everyone has an opinion and wants to share it. That's OK, that's what forums like this are about. No one gets charged by the post...

As for the PLB/Satellite stuff, that probably could be spun off to a separate topic, but I don't see any harm in talking about it. Other will read this post and maybe pick something up out of it. AK_SAR was able to help me out, and ultimately that's what this site is for.

 

[alcahuete]

No, of course it isn't. And we pretty much established that in the first couple of posts.
But then everyone has an opinion and wants to share it. That's OK, that's what forums like this are about. No one gets charged by the post...

As for the PLB/Satellite stuff, that probably could be spun off to a separate topic, but I don't see any harm in talking about it. Other will read this post and maybe pick something up out of it. AK_SAR was able to help me out, and ultimately that's what this site is for.

And I don't disagree with such open discussion, especially if it's an ocean liner we're talking about or sailboat crossing the Atlantic or something. Just saying that some people are making this endeavor way more difficult than it needs to be for the poor OP. As of a few posts up on Page 3, he still says he's trying to determine the best solution for RADIOS, yet everyone else is talking about completely unnecessary emergency equipment, and search and rescue. It's a kayak...in a lake.

Guess I'm still tying to determine the best long term solution for my watercraft/home base comm - based on the fact I'm headed towards an amateur license I'd like to sink money into that option if feasible rather than build out two options, say an amateur and a GMRS, but if marine band is the best for the lake then separate equipment it will be.

I'm always of the opinion that any time I'm on a body of water, I will have a marine radio with me. Even though they are rarely used by recreational boaters anymore in most places, there is usually somebody somewhere with one on, i.e. a fueling station, or boat facility, etc. Would I rely on it in an emergency situation? Absolutely not, unless I'm in the ocean or on a body of water with commercial vessels. But I still carry one with me, and 3+ if I'm in the ocean. So it's good to have.

As far as the ham radio, you didn't hear it from me, because I would never recommend anything that is not lawful (cough cough), however, people may or may not be known to buy a good Motorola or Kenwood or other Part 90 VHF radio and program it for both marine and ham frequencies. Many older Kenwood models (I'm not sure about the newer) were actually Part 90 and Part 80 (Marine) certified. So you get the best of both worlds. You have a nice mil-spec radio for water resistance and such that covers ham frequencies for getting between you and the house, and then marine frequencies in the event you need to contact others. I've run Motorola gear in boats as the tertiary marine radio/primary ham radio for years, with absolutely flawless performance, in both salt water and fresh water environments.

 

[mmckenna]

Many older Kenwood models (I'm not sure about the newer) were actually Part 90 and Part 80 (Marine) certified.

The newer Kenwood's have Part 80 and Part 90, I mentioned that in one of the earlier posts.

 

[alcahuete]

Well then there you go, that's exactly what I would do. Get a Kenwood handheld that's certified in both for the kayak. Program it with Marine VHF and 2m. Then you also have a ham handheld for when you're not on the lake. At home, build out the ham station as much as your heart desires. Just put a really good base antenna up for 2m.