MLee3008
KN4VEO
Sounds like a viable option. I'll have to search thru the Kenwood series for a HT is rated IP67 or better.
Range of 2 meter vs MURS vs marine band
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mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
Maybe.
New/Reliable radios with both certifications will be expensive, as would be one with IPX7 or similar immersion ratings. Maybe immersion ratings are overkill if you keep them in a proper waterproof enclosure.
Most of the basic Marine VHF portables have this rating, as do several of the amateur only transceivers.
While Part 90 radios work fine for amateur use (it's what I use), not having a really good front panel programmable function or a VFO is a problem for some. Might not be the best choice for someone new to ham radio.
But, it is an option, as long as the limitations are clear to the user.
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All these comments are very good.
But............I can't but come back to my original premise that we are dealing with MLee's original inquiry, that is, he wants something to talk back to his wife while kayak'ing on an (apparently) peaceful eastern lake.
He is not going down the Yukon River, or across the Great Slave Lake**-- so I question whether he needs a PLB, or any emergency beacon, or maybe anything other than a 'cel phone.
For one thing, my experiences with any kayak or canoe'ing emergency (see above-- "Lauri's last Yukon River Adventure") --is that things happen so fast nothing on the water in those flipping contraptions that anything emergency communications-wise will matter a Rat's Azz... you are either going to live or die in a matter of a few moments-- it all will depend on how clever, skillful --or lucky you are-- and all the 'cel phones, EPIRB's, PLB's, sat phones, marine band HT's.............even some bloody CB radio.................. can all be damn'd.
A Marine Band radio is not the panacea- but a good idea.
A 'cel phone is probably the best thing to take along.
But I fear relying on a radio, a beacon, or any of their likes- its only going to assist in a body recovery- not a rescue.
........... Probably the most important survival piece of equipment in that kayak is that gray matter between the ears; that, and a good life vest, aka a "PFD."
Lauri
_________________________________________________________________
**Georaphy lesson... and yes, I did...........
But............I can't but come back to my original premise that we are dealing with MLee's original inquiry, that is, he wants something to talk back to his wife while kayak'ing on an (apparently) peaceful eastern lake.
He is not going down the Yukon River, or across the Great Slave Lake**-- so I question whether he needs a PLB, or any emergency beacon, or maybe anything other than a 'cel phone.
For one thing, my experiences with any kayak or canoe'ing emergency (see above-- "Lauri's last Yukon River Adventure") --is that things happen so fast nothing on the water in those flipping contraptions that anything emergency communications-wise will matter a Rat's Azz... you are either going to live or die in a matter of a few moments-- it all will depend on how clever, skillful --or lucky you are-- and all the 'cel phones, EPIRB's, PLB's, sat phones, marine band HT's.............even some bloody CB radio.................. can all be damn'd.
A Marine Band radio is not the panacea- but a good idea.
A 'cel phone is probably the best thing to take along.
But I fear relying on a radio, a beacon, or any of their likes- its only going to assist in a body recovery- not a rescue.
........... Probably the most important survival piece of equipment in that kayak is that gray matter between the ears; that, and a good life vest, aka a "PFD."
Lauri
_________________________________________________________________
**Georaphy lesson... and yes, I did...........
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Correct. Honestly, I personally would just get a used Part 90 radio and call it a day (~$150 or less on eBay), or even just a ham HT, but I'm not huge on leading people in the not-so-lawful direction. Is anybody going to know or care if he's using a Part 90 radio on Marine VHF? Of course not. And that would very likely be my go-to. Heck, the FCC doesn't even care about the hunters and taxi cab companies who use it all the time.
The way I look at it with my Part 90 gear (which as mentioned, I use for my tertiary VHF on boats) is that if I'm in an emergency situation where I really need to use it, at least I'm alive to pay the FCC fine.
Seems like a fair trade.MLee3008
KN4VEO
This has been a lively discussion that may have gotten a little overboard but it's been a huge learning opportunity for me and it sounds like a few others have picked up some tidbits along the way. It's all good and again I appreciate the time put it and thoughts you all have shared.
My original question was answered quickly - there is no magic frequency, amateur or otherwise, that trumps all others, each have their strengths and weaknesses. To hear that explained from those with some pretty vast experience was valuable to me and hopefully to others.
Back in the day I did enjoy some white water rafting in West Virginia but I'm not going to be doing class 4 or 5 rapids, more along the lines of a little fly fishing and hope to snap some pictures of bald eagles catching more fish than me, so as Lauri stated some of the responses may have been a bit much.
On the other hand, at the risk of TMI, my concerns are along the lines of a medical issue. While I am a veteran of 30+ marathons, half marathons, etc. and a life of decent exercise and eating habits heredity finally stepped in and I had a surprise octuple (Yeah, 8) bypass surgery a couple years ago. While the surgeon did a remarkable job and I'm back doing most of I want I'm not getting any younger. This will be my retirement home and I plan on enjoying the outdoors and nature. As Jimmy Buffett says I'd rather die while I'm living than live while I'm dead. My wife has accepted that but if I can give her some confidence I've taken some safety precautions it's all good.
Having a waterproof handheld attached to my PFD that I can just use is preferable to me. Still leery of acceptable cell phone coverage in the area of the 29,000 acre lake I will be using but that may be a limitation of any radio comm as well.
Picking up amateur radio as a hobby has grabbed my attention. I should be able to spend a little on some nice toys, could be overkill in the beginning, but if I can grow into them as I gain experience then that could be a route I would want to take.
My original question was answered quickly - there is no magic frequency, amateur or otherwise, that trumps all others, each have their strengths and weaknesses. To hear that explained from those with some pretty vast experience was valuable to me and hopefully to others.
Back in the day I did enjoy some white water rafting in West Virginia but I'm not going to be doing class 4 or 5 rapids, more along the lines of a little fly fishing and hope to snap some pictures of bald eagles catching more fish than me, so as Lauri stated some of the responses may have been a bit much.
On the other hand, at the risk of TMI, my concerns are along the lines of a medical issue. While I am a veteran of 30+ marathons, half marathons, etc. and a life of decent exercise and eating habits heredity finally stepped in and I had a surprise octuple (Yeah, 8) bypass surgery a couple years ago. While the surgeon did a remarkable job and I'm back doing most of I want I'm not getting any younger. This will be my retirement home and I plan on enjoying the outdoors and nature. As Jimmy Buffett says I'd rather die while I'm living than live while I'm dead. My wife has accepted that but if I can give her some confidence I've taken some safety precautions it's all good.
Having a waterproof handheld attached to my PFD that I can just use is preferable to me. Still leery of acceptable cell phone coverage in the area of the 29,000 acre lake I will be using but that may be a limitation of any radio comm as well.
Picking up amateur radio as a hobby has grabbed my attention. I should be able to spend a little on some nice toys, could be overkill in the beginning, but if I can grow into them as I gain experience then that could be a route I would want to take.
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Excellent ! MLee........
May you enjoy your lake for many many years, there, Cowboy !
Lauri
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(Oh, and I love that saying by Jimmy Buffett ...." I'd rather die while I'm living than live while I'm dead......"
I have a feeling a lot of my friends will be hearing that soon............Smiles )
.
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May you enjoy your lake for many many years, there, Cowboy !
Lauri
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
(Oh, and I love that saying by Jimmy Buffett ...." I'd rather die while I'm living than live while I'm dead......"
I have a feeling a lot of my friends will be hearing that soon............Smiles
).
.
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IIRC the National Park Service dispatchers monitor Marine Channel 16 out at Lake Powell or Lake Mead near Las Vegas. So there is some precedent for having a government agency keeping an ear on things. And along the coasts and the Great Lakes, the US Coast Guard dispatchers / watchstanders constantly monitor Marine Channel 16. (maybe the great rivers also)
AA4TX
Member
I am in the same boat, so to speak, but in a different location. I do a lot of kayaking in Southwest Florida My solution was the following:
Standard Horizon HX400 clipped to my PDF. It has:
Part 80 and part 90 certification.
IP67 rating.
40 slots (beyond the standard marine channels) for programming any channels from 136 MHz to 174 MHz, including CTCSS and DCS.
I have programmed in all local VHF Amateur repeaters and a few simplex channels in these 40 slots.
For kayak to kayak, other boats, dock, or US Coast Guard: I use the appropriate Marine Channels.
For kayak to house, car: I use local Amateur repeaters, or, if within range, Amateur simplex.
If I am kayaking outside of the local area repeaters, I also carry a VX-7r for UHF because we have the wonderful Florida SARNet that I can get communications from almost anywhere in the state back to the house.
There are a few other radios that have the same capability, but the HX400 suits me very well.
Standard Horizon HX400 clipped to my PDF. It has:
Part 80 and part 90 certification.
IP67 rating.
40 slots (beyond the standard marine channels) for programming any channels from 136 MHz to 174 MHz, including CTCSS and DCS.
I have programmed in all local VHF Amateur repeaters and a few simplex channels in these 40 slots.
For kayak to kayak, other boats, dock, or US Coast Guard: I use the appropriate Marine Channels.
For kayak to house, car: I use local Amateur repeaters, or, if within range, Amateur simplex.
If I am kayaking outside of the local area repeaters, I also carry a VX-7r for UHF because we have the wonderful Florida SARNet that I can get communications from almost anywhere in the state back to the house.
There are a few other radios that have the same capability, but the HX400 suits me very well.
MLee3008
KN4VEO
That is a great solution, if only I could convince my wife to get her license..... I'm working on a list of compelling reasons she needs to do that.
zerg901, you are correct about the monitoring of channel 16 on rivers. I live in Louisville and there is a fair amount of conversation on the marine channels, especially with the locks and barge traffic on the Ohio river.
zerg901, you are correct about the monitoring of channel 16 on rivers. I live in Louisville and there is a fair amount of conversation on the marine channels, especially with the locks and barge traffic on the Ohio river.
AA4TX
Member
MLee3008,
I am not sure that this helps in your situation (you will have to determine that, there are conditions) but please be aware that the FCC has, with the Report and Order adopted on August 30, 2016, and released on September 1, 2016, expanded the use of Marine radios on shore. In addition to allowing those with a Coast License to use marine radios on shore, the FCC has added the following:
§ 80.115 Operational conditions for use of associated ship units.
(a) Associated ship units may be operated under a ship station authorization. Use of an associated ship unit is restricted as follows;
1) It must only be operated on the safety and calling frequency 156.800 MHz or 156.525 MHz or on commercial or noncommercial VHF intership frequencies appropriate to the class of ship station with which it is associated.
(2) Except for safety purposes, it must only be used to communicate with the ship station with which it is associated or with associated ship units of the same ship station. Such associated ship units may be used from shore only adjacent to the waterway (such as on a dock or beach) where the ship is located. Communications from shore must relate to the operational and business needs of the ship including the transmission of safety information, and must be limited to the minimum practicable transmission time.
(3) It must be equipped to transmit on the frequency 156.800 MHz or 156.525 MHz and at least one appropriate intership frequency.
(4) Calling must occur on the frequency 156.800 MHz or 156.525 MHz unless calling and working on an intership frequency has been prearranged.
(5) Power is limited to one watt.
(6) The station must be identified by the call sign of the ship station with which it is associated and an appropriate unit designator.
I am not sure that this helps in your situation (you will have to determine that, there are conditions) but please be aware that the FCC has, with the Report and Order adopted on August 30, 2016, and released on September 1, 2016, expanded the use of Marine radios on shore. In addition to allowing those with a Coast License to use marine radios on shore, the FCC has added the following:
§ 80.115 Operational conditions for use of associated ship units.
(a) Associated ship units may be operated under a ship station authorization. Use of an associated ship unit is restricted as follows;
1) It must only be operated on the safety and calling frequency 156.800 MHz or 156.525 MHz or on commercial or noncommercial VHF intership frequencies appropriate to the class of ship station with which it is associated.
(2) Except for safety purposes, it must only be used to communicate with the ship station with which it is associated or with associated ship units of the same ship station. Such associated ship units may be used from shore only adjacent to the waterway (such as on a dock or beach) where the ship is located. Communications from shore must relate to the operational and business needs of the ship including the transmission of safety information, and must be limited to the minimum practicable transmission time.
(3) It must be equipped to transmit on the frequency 156.800 MHz or 156.525 MHz and at least one appropriate intership frequency.
(4) Calling must occur on the frequency 156.800 MHz or 156.525 MHz unless calling and working on an intership frequency has been prearranged.
(5) Power is limited to one watt.
(6) The station must be identified by the call sign of the ship station with which it is associated and an appropriate unit designator.
Rescue 21 Distress System Coverage
8th District shows USCG Ch16 & Ch70 coverage for Ohio Valley and Mississippi River
8th District shows USCG Ch16 & Ch70 coverage for Ohio Valley and Mississippi River
Radio Information For Boaters
this says that Ch 9 can be used as a "calling channel" (for initial contact) by a shore unit to call a recreational boater - as established by the FCC
U.S. VHF Channel Information
this says that Ch 9 is 156.45
Reading between the lines a little bit, it seems that Uncle Sam would not get upset if the OP used Ch 9 for his initial comms - especially in a rural area.
Also -
Federal Communications Commission (FCC) Radio License Information
An FCC ship station radio license is no longer required for any vessel travelling in U.S. waters which uses a VHF marine radio, radar or EPIRB, and which is not required to carry radio equipment.
this says that Ch 9 can be used as a "calling channel" (for initial contact) by a shore unit to call a recreational boater - as established by the FCC
U.S. VHF Channel Information
this says that Ch 9 is 156.45
Reading between the lines a little bit, it seems that Uncle Sam would not get upset if the OP used Ch 9 for his initial comms - especially in a rural area.
Also -
Federal Communications Commission (FCC) Radio License Information
An FCC ship station radio license is no longer required for any vessel travelling in U.S. waters which uses a VHF marine radio, radar or EPIRB, and which is not required to carry radio equipment.
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A range test a friend of mine & I performed in the ham service was between 144 MHz (2M) and 220 MHz, and based on our observations estimated about a 10% decrease in range when we went up in frequency. Assuming this is a linear function, going from 144MHz to 440 MHz (MURS & etc.), there'll be about a 20% decrease in coverage (assuming everything else like power levels, antenna efficiency, etc. are the same).
DeepBlue
Member
"(assuming everything else like power levels, antenna efficiency, etc. are the same)."
This is somewhat due to absorption by things like trees, etc. This is true until you hit a certain frequency after which you can actually make good use of signal reflections. When I was an engineer-type for an NBC OnO television station it was (and remains) quite common to bounce microwave signals off of taller buildings, especially if you couldn't find a path out of a downtown metro area. We often would point 180 degrees off to make a bounce back to the antennas at the station. This made the range increase for us. This is not helpful to the OP really, just informational about freq vs path.
Sean
KB8JNE
This is somewhat due to absorption by things like trees, etc. This is true until you hit a certain frequency after which you can actually make good use of signal reflections. When I was an engineer-type for an NBC OnO television station it was (and remains) quite common to bounce microwave signals off of taller buildings, especially if you couldn't find a path out of a downtown metro area. We often would point 180 degrees off to make a bounce back to the antennas at the station. This made the range increase for us. This is not helpful to the OP really, just informational about freq vs path.
Sean
KB8JNE
Lauri, on this point I have to respectfully disagree.
Having spent many a day "messing about in boats", mostly in Alaska, but also the PNW, there are very few situations on the water where "...you are either going to live or die in a matter of a few moments". With the exception of white water strainers and foot entrapment situations, if wearing a PFD you actually have quite a bit of time to deploy and use various signaling options. As has been demonstrated numerous times, even in Alaska cold waters, you typically have at least 10 minutes of useful function of hands, more than enough time to activate a PLB or use a marine handheld. For a person with flotation, actual death by hypothermia typically takes hours, even in ice water.
On this we agree. Especially the last part about WEARING A PFD! Without a PFD, even a strong swimmer will drown in 10 minutes or less in cold water situations.
That certainly brought back memories of Motorola field tests in the cellular field I was part of! We put up several different directional antennas and compared the signal scatter between buildings in downtown Chicago and compared signal paths to a unidirectional antenna. There were so many different refractions & reflections of the signal it was often hard to tell which antenna gave the best results! Thank you for the trip back in time!
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