RoswellVoter
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Have a good day.
Roswell residents crying foul over proposed URS tower
- Thread starter MTS2000des
- Start date
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Have a good day.
Amusing how that is totally ignored, and the poster is somehow "hurting his cause"
Y'all are a trip.
RoswellVoter
Member
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- Oct 12, 2014
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Option #82?? But how can that be? MT2000DES said that was the only appropriate site. He saw (wink wink) the secret documents explaining this...
RoswellVoter
Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2014
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- 28
MTS2000des
5B2_BEE00 Czar
as usual, you and the other troll don't get it.
This system is GOING to happen REGARDLESS of who complains.
It is long overdue. Project moving forward. Those opposed are wasting their time. Pick another fight. Come here to my county and protest the gross waste of $397 million dollars on a colossal nightmare of traffic gridlock and rising taxes.
That is worth fighting. Not your city replacing a 25 year old dying radio system for public safety.
If RoswellVoter wants to ask valid questions about NFRRS, he/she should inquire why the North Fulton folks refuse to work with Fulton county to use the new Fulton county system which will be going live next year. Building duplicate networks that cover the same geographic areas is the epitome of waste, but the separatist mentality that is North Fulton is all about spending money and not working with others.
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"NoFear", it is somewhat amusing that you follow right behind "MTS2000DES" so closely, but it is getting old. What is your opinion of this whole situation, the lack of government transparency, the whole thing, besides just rubber-stamping what he says?
And to MTS200DES; what does your counties waste have to do with this? You reprimanded me pretty good a few pages back for making a comparison, or drawing attention to a similarity in something else. Practice what you preach. -Which what I perceive is; to not allow citizen input on what happens (several hundred feet from their houses), because the local government can't "waste time" with citizens input anymore. Am I wrong?
Interesting thread this is.
And to MTS200DES; what does your counties waste have to do with this? You reprimanded me pretty good a few pages back for making a comparison, or drawing attention to a similarity in something else. Practice what you preach. -Which what I perceive is; to not allow citizen input on what happens (several hundred feet from their houses), because the local government can't "waste time" with citizens input anymore. Am I wrong?
Interesting thread this is.
MTS2000des
5B2_BEE00 Czar
Everything, putting in perspective how "RoswellVoter" went through great lengths to block the city of Johns Creek and now Roswell from expanding public safety communications because they simply do not like antenna structures, crying "lack of government transparency" and "corruption" yet one county away we have the most prolific example of blatant waste, fraud and abuse in decades.
People HAVE spoken out (including myself) and been SILENCED to the point of being escorted OUT of open, public meetings (and no we were not disruptive). Just putting it all in perspective.
Building a working public safety radio network that is without question needed SHOULD be a priority. Wasting $397 million dollars of taxpayers money to destroy the quality of life, increase crime and add to the already WORST traffic in the nation (which WILL actually have a domino effect to those in North Fulton...it's called I-285...google it someone).
Get the picture? Or do you need a slide rule to figure it out?
Your comparison about encryption had no merit or relevance anymore than "NoFear2005's" constant stalkerish chiming in behind every single post. For the record, I have him on ignore for a reason.
Here's the real problem, the "citizen input" comes too late in the process. If the "citizens" are/were so concerned, why did they wait until this late in the game to cry foul?
The URS has been in the planning stages for YEARS. Since 2009. Fact is most "citizens" do not bother to attend city council meetings, county commission meetings, etc. until they have something to complain about. They don't read the public notice section of the paper. They don't read the minutes that are posted on websites.
These are the same people who sit and stare at corporate media filling their heads full of crap blaming prezBo for everything, yet they cannot even tell you WHO their city councilman/woman is. I find it amusing that when their government is actually doing something that serves the public interest, they are quick to gripe and put out hilariously inaccurate flyers in mailboxes citing "aircraft landing" yet they were nowhere to be found 3 years ago when the very document they just filed a public records request for was created. It wasn't done in secret. It was not hidden. They just were not interested.
So this is not a case of a government going encrypted (which, sad for scanner folks, but the NFRRS will make heavy use of encryption) to hide their traffic like Little Rock, ARK. This is a case of typical sheeple not paying attention to what their government is doing until the last minute when a project is in it's final stages then they want to blow a gasket.
It's not like a $400 million dollar stadium project that came out of nowhere. Oops...you don't think that is relevant. My bad.
jim202
Member
Roswellvoter, let me ask these questions.
What are you expecting to get from your local government on a daily, weekly, monthly or even yearly?
Do you have children that are home taught, or do they go to the local public school?
Do you take your trash to a collection center your self or is it picked up by the local government as part of your property taxes?
If your having a stoke and laying on the floor of your house, who are you going to call for help?
If you have a house fire, are you going to call 911 to report your house is on fire?
If someone is breaking into your car on your driveway, are you going to call 911 to report the break in?
Most people would call 911 to report these issues. But your giving the impression that you don't need these services. Well guess what, without a functional radio system, these services are not going to be available. You might as well live out in the middle of the Arizona desert if this is how you feel.
Needing emergency services is going to happen to all of us at one time or another. We all take for granted that when we dial 911 to obtain emergency services that the process will work to have those responders show up. But without a functional radio system, these services are not going to be able to be told by the dispatcher there is an emergency and they need to respond. We might as well send up a red flare and hope someone will see it and come to your help.
As was mentioned earlier, a simulcast radio system is designed under very specific technical requirements. Maybe you should get involved with the local government and become part of that process. Waiting till the end to voice a NIMBY (not in my back yard) feeling about a radio tower is way too late.
What are you expecting to get from your local government on a daily, weekly, monthly or even yearly?
Do you have children that are home taught, or do they go to the local public school?
Do you take your trash to a collection center your self or is it picked up by the local government as part of your property taxes?
If your having a stoke and laying on the floor of your house, who are you going to call for help?
If you have a house fire, are you going to call 911 to report your house is on fire?
If someone is breaking into your car on your driveway, are you going to call 911 to report the break in?
Most people would call 911 to report these issues. But your giving the impression that you don't need these services. Well guess what, without a functional radio system, these services are not going to be available. You might as well live out in the middle of the Arizona desert if this is how you feel.
Needing emergency services is going to happen to all of us at one time or another. We all take for granted that when we dial 911 to obtain emergency services that the process will work to have those responders show up. But without a functional radio system, these services are not going to be able to be told by the dispatcher there is an emergency and they need to respond. We might as well send up a red flare and hope someone will see it and come to your help.
As was mentioned earlier, a simulcast radio system is designed under very specific technical requirements. Maybe you should get involved with the local government and become part of that process. Waiting till the end to voice a NIMBY (not in my back yard) feeling about a radio tower is way too late.
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RoswellVoter
Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2014
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- 28
I agree towers and new systems are needed. There were equally viable and effective sites. The City Administrator opted for a $24K per year 15 year lease of private land to avoid public and Council input. I'm sorry that some of you have your fisticuffs so ready to go that you miss what I am saying.
Have a good day.
Have a good day.
rapidcharger
Member
Why are they needed?
I have a ham radio system that has digital mobile coverage in that area and the antenna isn't on a 400' tower, it's in my attic 20 miles away. Now granted my house is on a hill but my point is the proposed system is wasteful and requires more Afghanistanistan-like towers than would otherwise be necessary. There are alternatives that haven't been considered. Some outrage is in order.
Curious, how on earth do they talk now, where the proposed tower exists? I mean, is it really that bad there that there HAS to be a tower right there, and not at one of the other 80-something locations that were considered?
Do they HAVE to have a simulcast system?
City government officials sure seem to be trying some underhanded moves to push this through, they certainly do not care for the input of the residents, you know, the ones who are paying for this.
I think folks are tired of hearing "the government knows what is best for you" and now want to see some proof as to how they come to that conclusion.
Remember "We have to pass the healthcare law to find out whats in it"?
Do they HAVE to have a simulcast system?
City government officials sure seem to be trying some underhanded moves to push this through, they certainly do not care for the input of the residents, you know, the ones who are paying for this.
I think folks are tired of hearing "the government knows what is best for you" and now want to see some proof as to how they come to that conclusion.
Remember "We have to pass the healthcare law to find out whats in it"?
It's rather humorous too see who's involved in this discussion actually know something about public safety radio system and those who simply feel they are qualified to do so because they can program a scanner and make a RR account. Just because a user may have thousands of post counts on here, doesn't mean they are qualified to be involved in public safety radio engineering....at all.
As I sad earlier, tower site spacing for P25 simulcast is critical. You CAN NOT simply throw in a tower site here and there and expect overlapping coverage to just work. There is a bunch of math involved here. Many systems that were poorly engineered on P25 simulcast have ended up to be money pit failures due to improper site spacing.
Did you ever stop to think that the proposed site was considered due to simulcast overlap engineering calculations ? I know this doesn't compute because it's above most scanner operator's ability to understand this.
Microwave paths. You do know you need a little bit more than just being able to see the other sites ? There's this thing called the Fresnel zone that needs to be free from obstructions to prevent reflections, refractions...etc. Again, this is above the comprehension of Joe public or John Scanner Engineer. Perhaps this site was also picked due to clean microwave paths. Fresnel zone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So a ham station can talk 20 miles and he has an antenna in his attic....wow. Stunning. Again, this shows the posters lack of credibility in the public safety communications field. I wont even begin to rip this apart, as it's just absurd.
Why simulcast ? A few reasons. In a trunking system type of world, if you had a 5 site 5 channel trunking system, you would need 5 frequencies licensed to the system. There would also be no worry about affiliation between sites as a radio moves around. In a non simulcast system with 5 sites and 5 channels, you would need 25 trunked frequencies for the system. This adds huge costs to licensing and coordination and inter modulation concerns, and radios now will have to affiliate as they drive from site to site. I would think for a city as big as Roswell, a small P25 simulcast trunking system would be perfect. In a large statewide or wide area system, it's not practical to do simulcast.
Either way it goes, if the city needs it's communications needs met, it will get done one way or another. By being a NIMBY terrorist you can sleep well knowing you saved your "awesome view" and smile paying more for your property taxes knowing you added a few million dollars to the cost of a new system due to having to workaround a site that couldn't be had.
As I sad earlier, tower site spacing for P25 simulcast is critical. You CAN NOT simply throw in a tower site here and there and expect overlapping coverage to just work. There is a bunch of math involved here. Many systems that were poorly engineered on P25 simulcast have ended up to be money pit failures due to improper site spacing.
Did you ever stop to think that the proposed site was considered due to simulcast overlap engineering calculations ? I know this doesn't compute because it's above most scanner operator's ability to understand this.
Microwave paths. You do know you need a little bit more than just being able to see the other sites ? There's this thing called the Fresnel zone that needs to be free from obstructions to prevent reflections, refractions...etc. Again, this is above the comprehension of Joe public or John Scanner Engineer. Perhaps this site was also picked due to clean microwave paths. Fresnel zone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So a ham station can talk 20 miles and he has an antenna in his attic....wow. Stunning. Again, this shows the posters lack of credibility in the public safety communications field. I wont even begin to rip this apart, as it's just absurd.
Why simulcast ? A few reasons. In a trunking system type of world, if you had a 5 site 5 channel trunking system, you would need 5 frequencies licensed to the system. There would also be no worry about affiliation between sites as a radio moves around. In a non simulcast system with 5 sites and 5 channels, you would need 25 trunked frequencies for the system. This adds huge costs to licensing and coordination and inter modulation concerns, and radios now will have to affiliate as they drive from site to site. I would think for a city as big as Roswell, a small P25 simulcast trunking system would be perfect. In a large statewide or wide area system, it's not practical to do simulcast.
Either way it goes, if the city needs it's communications needs met, it will get done one way or another. By being a NIMBY terrorist you can sleep well knowing you saved your "awesome view" and smile paying more for your property taxes knowing you added a few million dollars to the cost of a new system due to having to workaround a site that couldn't be had.
CapStar362
Member
very well put 8000.
i say we drop it, let them fight.... when property taxes go up to pay for this "re-engineered" system and crime goes up in their neighborhood and first responders start delaying fire/ems and LEO services to just outright refusing to due to safety concerns for their own safety, it gets thrown right in the face, their ignorance to what the "Educated" people attempted to enlighten them to see. keep your modest homes and rich neighborhoods... when they get overrun don't cry foul!
id STILL like to see these "Manufacturer Acknowledged Defects" as claimed by the tower idiot... evidence links. i cant find any myself, so im already shouting foul at misinformation and deception.
have yet to see this, and that was requested what..... 1.5 weeks ago?
i say we drop it, let them fight.... when property taxes go up to pay for this "re-engineered" system and crime goes up in their neighborhood and first responders start delaying fire/ems and LEO services to just outright refusing to due to safety concerns for their own safety, it gets thrown right in the face, their ignorance to what the "Educated" people attempted to enlighten them to see. keep your modest homes and rich neighborhoods... when they get overrun don't cry foul!
id STILL like to see these "Manufacturer Acknowledged Defects" as claimed by the tower idiot... evidence links. i cant find any myself, so im already shouting foul at misinformation and deception.
have yet to see this, and that was requested what..... 1.5 weeks ago?
jim202
Member
I also agree with 8000 that there seem to be 2 factions on here about the tower in question. Those that just oppose it and those that are trying to bring the physical facts of life to the group.
It doesn't matter if you have only one posting on here or 3000, what counts is your ability to present the facts. So far it has been clear that some think a digital ham repeater at their house can cover the whole county. What about inside all the buildings in the county? You need radio coverage inside schools, big box buildings like Target, Wall-mart, Lowe's, Home Depot and the list goes on. Emergency service still need to use their portable radios inside these places.
Just how many public meetings have these non supporters gone to? Did they ask any questions about the tower in any of these meetings? Did they even read the local paper where public notices are posted? I could go on, but it would be a waist of space here.
These few in the minority I guess just don't want any public services where they live. Too bad you can't put a notice for all of them in the dispatch CAD system that indicates they have indicated they have no need of any public services. Shut off their water, shut off their sewer access, stop clearing the streets, don't respond for any medical calls or law enforcement calls. These people don't want communications for public safety agencies, shut off all services to them.
Those people that think they know how a radio trunking system works and what it takes to provide good coverage, why don't you get involved with the process and provide your knowledge to the public safety agencies in your area. I am sure they will welcome that knowledge to build the best radio system with the funds they have to work with. Go out and help do microwave path surveys and see what kind of obstructions may be in the planned path of a link between towers. Help work with the agencies in obtaining land leases for the property these towers require. Work with the public safety agencies in designing the radio system so it provides the required penetration into buildings and land areas that the emergency responders go to.
Just sticking an antenna up in the air 50 feet with a hunk of RG-8 coax isn't going to cut it. If you haven't done it, try to plot coverage and signal strength from a tower to see if you have a good location for the tower. Make sure the distance from the next tower over is within the required time delay distance so simulcast delays can be aligned. Also work with the field techs as they set the system up and make sure the audio delays are all set correctly. Wrong time delays can cause garbled audio on your receiver.
It was mentioned why use a simulcast trunking system? It was answered by it doesn't require as many different frequencies than a normal system where different voice channels are used at adjacent tower sites. If your having trouble understanding this, then by all means jump in and help locate the additional frequencies so you can support your position. You can volunteer to be part of the solution in making the system work. You seem to have more of an understanding than the vendor engineers that are trying to provide a working and usable system.
Don't be a stranger on here, tell the group just what your background is for the expert statements your making about why this tower isn't needed. Let the group know just how you are coming up with those engineering positions. We would all like to know.
It doesn't matter if you have only one posting on here or 3000, what counts is your ability to present the facts. So far it has been clear that some think a digital ham repeater at their house can cover the whole county. What about inside all the buildings in the county? You need radio coverage inside schools, big box buildings like Target, Wall-mart, Lowe's, Home Depot and the list goes on. Emergency service still need to use their portable radios inside these places.
Just how many public meetings have these non supporters gone to? Did they ask any questions about the tower in any of these meetings? Did they even read the local paper where public notices are posted? I could go on, but it would be a waist of space here.
These few in the minority I guess just don't want any public services where they live. Too bad you can't put a notice for all of them in the dispatch CAD system that indicates they have indicated they have no need of any public services. Shut off their water, shut off their sewer access, stop clearing the streets, don't respond for any medical calls or law enforcement calls. These people don't want communications for public safety agencies, shut off all services to them.
Those people that think they know how a radio trunking system works and what it takes to provide good coverage, why don't you get involved with the process and provide your knowledge to the public safety agencies in your area. I am sure they will welcome that knowledge to build the best radio system with the funds they have to work with. Go out and help do microwave path surveys and see what kind of obstructions may be in the planned path of a link between towers. Help work with the agencies in obtaining land leases for the property these towers require. Work with the public safety agencies in designing the radio system so it provides the required penetration into buildings and land areas that the emergency responders go to.
Just sticking an antenna up in the air 50 feet with a hunk of RG-8 coax isn't going to cut it. If you haven't done it, try to plot coverage and signal strength from a tower to see if you have a good location for the tower. Make sure the distance from the next tower over is within the required time delay distance so simulcast delays can be aligned. Also work with the field techs as they set the system up and make sure the audio delays are all set correctly. Wrong time delays can cause garbled audio on your receiver.
It was mentioned why use a simulcast trunking system? It was answered by it doesn't require as many different frequencies than a normal system where different voice channels are used at adjacent tower sites. If your having trouble understanding this, then by all means jump in and help locate the additional frequencies so you can support your position. You can volunteer to be part of the solution in making the system work. You seem to have more of an understanding than the vendor engineers that are trying to provide a working and usable system.
Don't be a stranger on here, tell the group just what your background is for the expert statements your making about why this tower isn't needed. Let the group know just how you are coming up with those engineering positions. We would all like to know.
CapStar362
Member
hey Jim, curious... did you happen to see the website that countered the Johns Creek tower?
Stop the 400 Foot Tower in Johns Creek
just look at the deception!
Stop the 400 Foot Tower in Johns Creek
just look at the deception!
RoswellVoter
Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2014
- Messages
- 28
The Lackey Road site was a fall-back location after the public notices required by the other options resulted in politically unfavorable responses. The Lackey Road option was specifically selected from the vetted sites after the others had pushback because of how they could get it approved. Kay Love's email even discussed her wanting to avoid public and Council involvement. The $24K/year 15 year lease adds to the insult as the other options would have resulted in income to the city (costs are split between 4 cities) with the same coverage. But some of you just want to read what you want or assume I have motives which don't exist. Staggering, really.
Have a good day.
Have a good day.
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