Roswell residents crying foul over proposed URS tower

[RoswellVoter]

Um, y'all do know the John's creek tower and the Roswell tower are two different things, and two different issues, don't you? I keep seeing reference to this. I think the Roswell fella actually has his head on his shoulders.

Thank you and zz. I have no involvement with Johns Creek, although I note that their political issues unfortunately kept them out of the NFRRSA. The dysfunction in Fulton was bad enough to start. The Authority members and Ed Sweeney were pretty harsh in their criticisms of JC at their last meeting, and I cannot say it was unfounded. Their inclusion would have been preferred. I expressed the same to a JC Chamber director in passing at an unrelated state election campaign reception.

I understand the need for towers. I support them. If the Lackey Road tower was the optimal location and there was no increased cost to place it there to avoid public debate and a Council vote, I would grumble a bit at my personal impact, while accepting it for the betterment of public safety. But that is not the case...

In any event, I understand more media coverage is forthcoming, and I hope the focus is on the process that this went through, and not some wacky tinfoil hat fears of radio waves. I have personally admonished neighbors for making those suggestions, and asked that they not present those unfounded concerns.

 

[MTS2000des]

. I have no involvement with Johns Creek, although I note that their political issues unfortunately kept them out of the NFRRSA. T..

Maybe they don't think building, and paying for a second, duplicate radio system is needed? Have you ever considered this fact? God forbid one should be prudent with their money these days. I for one, applaud them.

The dysfunction in Fulton was bad enough to start.

What dysfunction?

Are you familiar with the new Fulton county system? Guess what, all your north county cities WILL BE ON IT come January, because the build out on the North Fulton RRS won't even begin until next Spring at earliest, and that's if you get out of the way today.

Oh so know we know what this REALLY about. More separatism. Fine. I get it. So quit your whining about your tower sites. You don't want to become a stakeholder on the county system. You build your own. Pay your cost to be that big boss on the Northside. If that means a 400' tower, than so be it. Deal with it. Your choice, your consequence.

I understand the need for towers. I support them. .

Than what is your problem other than you don't like it? Can't have your cake and eat it to. The more you talk, the more you epitomize the typical elitist mentality that permeates that area. It's really unseemly.

You people are mad at Fulton county, calling them "dysfunctional". Pot meet kettle. When you start realizing and adding up the costs of that little private Idaho you are building, you complain about things like public safety radio sites.

Amazing, really, truly, amazing. You folks are so spoiled it isn't even funny anymore.

In any event, I understand more media coverage is forthcoming, and I hope the focus is on the process that this went through, and not some wacky tinfoil hat fears of radio waves..

Knowing the corporate media in this town, they will focus on your nutty flyers and get the most ignorant fools they can to stick a microphone and camera in front of. Count on it.

Good luck on your quest for the perfect world. Fear not, when 192C gets turned off and your police, fire and EMS are on the new Fulton county phase 2 system with it's 14 sites next year because your cities have NOWHERE ELSE TO GO, you will be asking yourself,

Just why ARE we buying a separate system when this new county one works so great?

Oh well, you can afford it. Just do us a favor, quit whining about the towers. You wanted it, well...you got it.

 

[RRR]

This is exactly the reason people don't want to post on here. Arrogant self proclaimed know-it-all's like you, who admonish and criticize others whom you think should just take what they get, and leave everything to the professionals. Sorry man, the tide is changing, people are holding elected officials and hired help accountable more and more. Gone are the days we just "accept it for your own good" I would suggest you prepare yourself for more of these debates in the future.

I am curious, Mr. Bagby, what exactly, (aside from an "observer" or a "peeker of documents") is your apparent extensive knowledge of all this based on, aside from hobby ham radio, or hospital dispatching? I do think it's fair to ask your background and direct involvement with the process of site location for public safety is in order, considering you attack with your own facts, and basically leave with the impression that if it isn't how you claim it is, then it's wrong....

 

[rapidcharger]

The real questions that should be asked is why the citizens of North Fulton need to pay for an additional radio system at all when Fulton county is rolling out a similar network built to the SAME specifications for portable coverage in the ENTIRE county (which includes the planned coverage of the NFURS). Sites have already been selected, equipment is here, waiting to be turned on and optimized. Same vendor, same everything.

Like I said...
"There's nothing wrong with asking;
Why does this have cost this much?
Why is this suddenly needed?
What are other cities doing?
What are other cities in the area doing?
How many proposals have we obtained?"

I was hanging out Rural/Metro today...they have some busted up Mcs2000s and Mts2000s i really think they deserve a upgrade...

First of all, Rural/Metro is a private company and I'm sure they will be making decisions to buy new radios based on whether or not it's necessary to do so without eating too much into their profits.

Second of all, I think most reasonable people would agree there's nothing wrong with an upgrade when the following is true.
- There is something wrong with the equipment requiring it to be replaced rather than repaired.
- There proposed upgrade is needed given the technology will change to something that many agencies that switch to it report having very serious problems.
- There is money to pay for it
- All options have been considered and multiple proposals and bids have been obtained from a variety of vendors, including local ones.
- The price is reasonable considering the use and the overall budget.

This is true. It's long been my opinion that 800 MHz is not the optimum place to put these types of services but there are a couple of mitigating circumstances that make it necessary:

1. It's where the available spectrum has been.
3. The same propagation characteristics that make it challenging to provide coverage allow for a greater amount of frequency reuse.
)))

Luckily the bands are wide open now that so many agencies have migrated to 800. Plenty of space in the neighborhood

(((Unnecessary? You tell that to the police, who are demanding that, if they are expected to maintain law and order in 100% of their jurisdiction, they expect to be able to call for help when they need it.)))

First of all, we're talking about a rural area that at the most is going to be using the radios to run license plates for speeders. Portable coverage on the roadways should be reliable. However 95% portable coverage down in the creek bottoms and netherworlds of the uninhabited areas is not. And if it is, that's what mobile extenders are for.

((( I've talked to cops who tell me stories about being alone on a rural patrol, wrestling with a suspect who's grabbing for their gun, trying to cuff the guy with one hand, and call for help on his HT with the other, and praying that they're not in one of those many dead areas. )))

From what I read in the news and announcements room, it seems like spending tens of millions of dollars does not guarantee that an officer will have reliable portable or even mobile coverage.

(((The engineers and manufacturers are merely catering to their customer, and it is the customer that defines what is, and isn't needed. In this day and age, building a new system with coverage deficiencies designed into it is not an acceptable answer to the people in the field. )))

I got the notion the customer hired a consultant to tell them what their needs are because they didn't know.

(((Public Safety agencies are demanding greater bandwidth, more features, more redundancy to guard against failure, better coverage, and more reliable hardware. Their perception is that police work is changing. The caliber of threats they are expected to face is growing. Terrorism is a buzz word that's way overused, but criminal gangs are getting more violent, and broaching territory where they've never before been seen. Drug cartels are getting bolder, and crossing border areas more and more frequently. And so on. The perception of law enforcement is that the sleepy little rural areas have as much potential for violent crime as rural areas. )))

But at the end of the day, it's a sleepy rural area and terrorism and criminal gangs are not a problem. Cow tipping might be a problem but that's about it. Creating lots of wild scenarios like they do at Urban Shield may be fun and exciting for the officers in a place where they dream of one day getting an exciting call and fantasize about being prepared and having all this military grade equipment at their disposal.

The fact of the matter is there are very large cities that actually do have genuine reasons to be concerned about terrorism such as NYC and Boston yet they have resisted changing to 7/800 DTRS. One must ask, if NYC and Boston and St. Louis County and Pittsburgh and LA and Miami Dade Fire Rescue can do with analog conventional on the lower bands, then chances are pretty good all those wild scenarios are a crock of b.s.

(((It's not my job to second guess that perception. )))

Of course not. It's your job to sell radios. (I'm guessing)
But it should be SOMEBODY's job.

(((
As technology advances, everyone wants to apply it to their particular field of endeavor. Police and Fire agencies are no different in that regard. Many of the features that are available now, have been wanted by police for 50 years. Some level of privacy, enough channels so different functions can operate unencumbered with another divisions radio traffic, coverage whereever, and whenever circumstances dictate that they operate from. Emergency man-down buttons, automatic location services, mobile data, instant access to wants and warrants information, etc. etc. etc. )))

Emergency man down buttons are available on Baofengs.
Privacy doesn't require a multi million dollar anything.
There are no other divisions in this case
Instant access to warrants is going to require a separate purchase. That's optional equipment sold separately.

(((It is these user requirements that drive the need for these massively expensive systems. I, for one, would feel really uncomfortable telling some law enforcement agency who is asking for up to date modern communications that no, you're getting a single low band voice channel. )))

There is lot in between "single low band voice channel" and a DTRS from a sole source vendor that costs tens of millions of dollars. And even if there wasn't, at the end of the day, if you didn't have the money to migrate from low band after all these years (not the agency in question, just to disclose), then how on Earth are you going to have the money to upgrade when your DTRS has reached the end of it's life in just a few short years?

It's the whole planning ahead part that number-crunchers have to do. Not just dreaming about all the cool features that will be possible with an endless stream of money funding it. If there is no money to fund it, then a single low band channel will be a dream come true over a DTRS that is unusable.

(((Hopefully some of my explanations above have answered some of your questions as to the why. Society is evolving, and as it evolves, what was deemed adequate 30 or 40 years ago is now deemed as dangerously inadequate. You used the analogy of your homeowners association. I'll use the analogy of our military.
)))

I appreciate the effort you made to help me understand why this is needed but I'm afraid to say that after all of that time you spent on explaining that I remain unconvinced this type of system is needed. There are still many large agencies that should have those needs that haven't migrated to this type of system. They have resisted doing so in fact. You know it and I know. Using the military is a great example because it's an endless stream of money that we don't have to pay for operations most of the country doesn't want to be involved in. Similarly, we don't have the money (and this goes back to the HOA analogy) to pay for these things. And if we did, the money is needed on other things. There are higher priorities when you've got a radio system that works already in place that can be piggy backed on top of, sites that can be outsourced for a plan that can be simplified. And just like with the board of directors of the HOA, they have no business experience and are relying on a corrupt outside management company to tell them what to do. Just like the consultant.

 

[MTS2000des]

This is exactly the reason people don't want to post on here. Arrogant self proclaimed know-it-all's like you, who admonish and criticize others whom you think should just take what they get, and leave everything to the professionals. Sorry man, the tide is changing, people are holding elected officials and hired help accountable more and more. Gone are the days we just "accept it for your own good" I would suggest you prepare yourself for more of these debates in the future.

No, I take issue with people who clearly have an agenda and call it out. Flyers depicting military aircraft landing lights, myths about radiation, and outright lies are what I take issue with.

I also take issue with hypocrites. You see, the core of the issue is coming out. It's the old, trite "us versus them" North/South crap again. The North Fulton folks want to "secede" from Fulton county, and the creation of the NFRRS is the first power play to do just that.

Problem is, those involved are so arrogant they are being exactly like those they criticize, taking all they can from the county and not wanting to pay. Furthermore, in their haste to create their own system, they apparently don't have the full support of their constituents. The same constituents who describe the very county as being "dysfunctional". Ironic isn't it?

So you want to attack ME for calling out someone who registers here not to participate as a radio enthusiast (which, correct me if I am wrong, but that is what the basis and purpose of these forums are, correct?) and just use it as a springboard for their misdirected political agenda.

All I did was say in effect, "hey, you want your own private separate system for your new separate land soon to be known as Milton county,great. I am for giving public safety adequate tools to be safe on the job. Just do not complain and cry foul when you get what you pay for. Part of that means all the associated infrastructure. Deal with it. Your choice, your consequences."

It's called adulthood, accepting consequences for your actions. This issue is much deeper than radio systems. It is the elitist mentality that is "North Fulton" county and has been going on for decades. Not that you would understand, because you don't live here, or do you?

I am curious, Mr. Bagby, what exactly, (aside from an "observer" or a "peeker of documents") is your apparent extensive knowledge of all this based on, aside from hobby ham radio, or hospital dispatching? I do think it's fair to ask your background and direct involvement with the process of site location for public safety is in order, considering you attack with your own facts, and basically leave with the impression that if it isn't how you claim it is, then it's wrong....

My background is in land mobile radio, worked in the business since I was 17. Got my novice ham ticket when I was 9. Worked for a small business that closed when Nextel came to town. Some of the accounts I worked on at the time: city of Smyrna, GA, Life University, Coca-Cola Service Group were some of the ones that come to mind. Attended Motorola subscriber training on Jedi/MCS radios, most recently Kenwood factory service center training on NXDN subscriber units in Suwanee, GA in 2012. Before my current employment, my past position was a communications manager for a private ambulance company where I managed a fleet of UHF LTR and 800MHz subscriber radios, fire pagers, and other ancillary equipment (MDTs, cellular phones, et al). I currently maintain an amateur repeater site in Marietta, GA as well as assist with procuring and maintaining radios for my current employer. Any more questions?

Not that this is any of your business. But since you called me out by name, who exactly are you, and what are your qualifications other than some self-proclaimed wanna-be government watchdog? What organization(s) are you affiliated with? What qualifications do you hold? Are you even a ham, if so, what is your call sign? What is on your resume that is relevant to this discussion? Time to put your cards on the table since you demanded I show mine. Or shut up.

If you are going to call others out by name, then be an adult and offer yours up too. Gotta be willing to do the same you demand of others, or you are just being a hypocrite like many others on this forum.

Your posts are nothing more than troll attempts and attacks. Name calling and insults are usually an indicator of how right the attacked person is. The documents I have seen are available through public record request. If you are too lazy/inept/incompetent to follow those instructions, that is your problem, not mine.

I already posted links to sources in this thread, if you choose not to follow them but instead make it personal and attack me and others, then your intentions are pretty clear. You are just another little basement troll sitting behind a keyboard. My real name is associated with my account unlike you and I have nothing to hide.

What dog do you even have in this fight? It was mentioned you live in South Georgia. Why do you even care what goes on here in metro Atlanta?

 

[K4SVT]

Woah...

Sent via LG G2 on Sprint 4G LTE Spark

 

[RoswellVoter]

Woah...

Sent via LG G2 on Sprint 4G LTE Spark

Sock puppet account. Even PM'd me to try to get a real email address from me likely for nefarious reasons...

73

 

[MTS2000des]

Sock puppet account. Even PM'd me to try to get a real email address from me likely for nefarious reasons...

73

His ham call is K4SVT. Mine is N4XTS, previously KB4TPP since 1986. My GMRS was WQJU329, let it lapse, inactive on GMRS.

And yours is? Bueller? Anyone? Bueller?

Come on now...let's all play "who's on first" since RRR is so interested in who everyone is and how "qualified" they are. (Still waiting on him to come forward and enlighten us with his resume).

 

[RoswellVoter]

More media interviews occurred today with some interested neighbors, at least one of whom is an active LEO...

 

[CapStar362]

You must be proud of yourself. I won't bother to read anything else you post.

Have a good day.

likewise, have a awful night!

probably has me on ignore now..... like i care.


YO MTS! i feel your pains in people dirty'ing the hobby with political agenda's but man, let it die. when the house they cherish burns down because Fireside and EMS refuse service for safety reasons, or likewise when some troubled young adults are terrorizing the neighborhoods with vandalism and theft, and PD refuses to enter because of dead zones. they'll be crying real FOUL then.... but they know deep down, the city will just remind them of the "Ignorance" they used to block the building of a effective radio system to that tower location.

not very religious myself, but "God doesn't like ugly" he has his ways, and nothing will stop it.


aside to that, RRR spill the credentials bud. im no Radio Professional, but as a Tier II PC Tech and now working on Tier II Network Tech.... i do have a good bit of various fields of study i am fluent in. i understand to a certain extent these systems. though my focus is PC work.


but when you spit out someone's name like that? you're asking for retaliation.

 

[zz0468]

Luckily the bands are wide open now that so many agencies have migrated to 800. Plenty of space in the neighborhood

Easier said than done. That freed up spectrum isn't necessarily available to everybody who wants it. A small handful of years ago, I participated in the writing of a bid specification that called for VHF frequencies in the rural part of the system to try to reduce site expenses. The process in itself was difficult and expensive, and only marginally successful. Co-channel sharing at VHF is an order of magnitude more difficult than at 700/800.

First of all, we're talking about a rural area that at the most is going to be using the radios to run license plates for speeders.

Is that really YOUR decision to make? The above mentioned bid spec faced the very same issue. The response of the end user, a law enforcement agency, stated that occasionally, things DO happen in those God forsaken nowhere places, and the lives of their people, and the lives of the public are worth the expense.

Portable coverage on the roadways should be reliable. However 95% portable coverage down in the creek bottoms and netherworlds of the uninhabited areas is not. And if it is, that's what mobile extenders are for.

And the argument will be case studies of foot chases, plane crashes, and 4X4 accidents well outside the range of the extenders parked on the roadside.

The way I look at it is this: These guys are out there on a daily basis, THEY know what they need better than I do. My job is to build it and keep it working.

From what I read in the news and announcements room, it seems like spending tens of millions of dollars does not guarantee that an officer will have reliable portable or even mobile coverage.

To be sure, there's been a lot of poorly implemented systems out there. But personal experience has taught me that the real problem isn't that these systems just don't work, the real problem is simply a disconnect between customer expectations, and the implemented reality. If the cops are sold a system based on 100% coverage of their area, and it only provides 75% coverage, it's going to make the press, in spite of the fact that the system is operating perfectly according to it's design parameters.

Making reality meet expectations can be VERY expensive.

But at the end of the day, it's a sleepy rural area and terrorism and criminal gangs are not a problem...

Not today... yet. What would you tell your taxpayers after it's too late? "Sorry, we thought it would never happen here"? More and more, that's becoming less and less of an acceptable answer.

Cow tipping might be a problem but that's about it...

I know some rural area cops who would be extremely offended by that statement. Drug labs, booby trapped marijuana fields, domestic terrorist training camps, plane crashes, train derailments with hazmat spills, etc. etc... I've seen them all happen in the rural jurisdictions I've worked for.

Of course not. It's your job to sell radios. (I'm guessing)

Bad guess... but I suppose I can understand why the uninitiated here would think that. I'm the guy in engineering that solves the unsolvable problems. But after 30something years of talking to cops and firemen about their radio problems, trying to solve them, I have become very sympathetic to the people in the field doing the dirty work. I have learned to see the problems through their eyes.

Emergency man down buttons are available on Baofengs...

LOL... ok.

For what it's worth, I won't even use a Baofeng on a ham band. But I'm an acknowledged RF snob.

Privacy doesn't require a multi million dollar anything.

Oh? You've priced out encryption for a large system?

I appreciate the effort you made to help me understand why this is needed but I'm afraid to say that after all of that time you spent on explaining that I remain unconvinced this type of system is needed.

That's quite all right. Hopefully you learned something, and I have no illusions about changing anyone's mind on an internet forum anyway. If I want to impart anything to you, and folks with similar points of view, it's that there are some solid reasons behind the complex and expensive systems being built. It's not all perfect, but I think the vast majority of project managers building these things really do have their hearts in the right place. What's often mistaken for corruption is sometime just a passionate feel for some particular system configuration.

I've come to realize that it's impossible to please everyone, whether it's the taxpayers footing the bill, the cops and firemen who want a new radio system, or the neighbors who don't want a new tower in their backyard. They're all valid points of view, but sometimes what's RIGHT isn't necessarily even what the majority wants.

 

[MTS2000des]

YO MTS! i feel your pains in people dirty'ing the hobby with political agenda's but man, let it die. when the house they cherish burns down because Fireside and EMS refuse service for safety reasons, or likewise when some troubled young adults are terrorizing the neighborhoods with vandalism and theft, and PD refuses to enter because of dead zones. they'll be crying real FOUL then.... but they know deep down, the city will just remind them of the "Ignorance" they used to block the building of a effective radio system to that tower location.

Trust me, I've accomplished my objective. "RoswellVoter" has their true colors exposed when they started downing the county they pay taxes to. Just another "separatist" that is mad because the cost of being "separate but equal" is coming due and they don't want to pay up.

Notice "RoswellVoter" won't comment on why the NFRRS is even necessary when he/she is already funding a concurrent replacement for the county system that will be the EXACT SAME (and then some) before the NFRRS even sees the light of day.

Just another person who wants to have their cake and eat it too. Their choice, their consequences.

aside to that, RRR spill the credentials bud.

He/she won't. They are going to troll elsewhere now. Because then that exposes them to scrutiny. Those who have nothing to hide and actually stand behind what they say will sign their name/call to it. Those with "virtual balls" are a plenty on the forums.

but when you spit out someone's name like that? you're asking for retaliation.

I don't intend on retaliation, but I really am curious what "RRR's" background is but then again, like most hypocrites, they live in a world of double standards.

He demanded I "show my ID" and I did, yet he is eerily absent when held to the same standards. Imagine that.

 

[RoswellVoter]

Well, that was some Wall of Text to skip... Here is a fun article which may really help some of you: The 12 cognitive biases that prevent you from being rational

Seriously.

 

[RRR]

My credentials aren't stake here, I am not an expert on tower placement, never said I was, but I feel the residents pain, having those who claim to be experts, or those with ulterior motives tell them what HAS to be, thus my replies. I wanted those whom have basically claimed to be an expert here on these things, and basically tell the rest of us "it's for your own good because we say so" to produce theirs.

...And so far, I just see a lot of "almost" experts, but no real expert. I would hardly think simply working for a couple of radio shops, or setting up HAM radios, or dealing with a businesses radio system or dispatching would qualify someone to tell others that a tower in question that a multi site trunking public safety radio system in a county they don't even live or work in, HAS to be right there, or their house will burn down because public safety can not communicate. That's pure ridiculous emotional exaggeration. "Create a crisis, and then you can create your own solution"

Of course, the whole "It HAS to be right there" theory was dispelled when internal government communication came to light that was one of many sites that will work. So how can that be, if it HAD to be "right there" or it wouldn't work?

I saw nowhere where "Roswell voter" mentioned John's creek, their tower, or their plight, yet that's all the self proclaimed "know it all's" will debate.

This is not about Johns creek, their flyer, or their radio system.

....And if you have cake, .....you should eat it.

 

[rapidcharger]

Sock puppet account. Even PM'd me to try to get a real email address from me likely for nefarious reasons...

73

LOL! Take it from me, while it may seem that way that's not a sockpuppet account. There is a long back story there.
I won't get into the whole thing but suffice it to say, one of the people doesn't want to have anything to do with the other and the other continues to brown nose him in this thread.

Trying to get people's email addresses is what he does. He just does that. He does that with everyone. If you search the forum for his posts the majority of them say "email me, email me! I can help!"

 

[CapStar362]

My background is in land mobile radio, worked in the business since I was 17. Got my novice ham ticket when I was 9. Worked for a small business that closed when Nextel came to town. Some of the accounts I worked on at the time: city of Smyrna, GA, Life University, Coca-Cola Service Group were some of the ones that come to mind. Attended Motorola subscriber training on Jedi/MCS radios, most recently Kenwood factory service center training on NXDN subscriber units in Suwanee, GA in 2012. Before my current employment, my past position was a communications manager for a private ambulance company where I managed a fleet of UHF LTR and 800MHz subscriber radios, fire pagers, and other ancillary equipment (MDTs, cellular phones, et al). I currently maintain an amateur repeater site in Marietta, GA as well as assist with procuring and maintaining radios for my current employer. Any more questions?

My credentials aren't stake here, I am not an expert on tower placement, never said I was, but I feel the residents pain, having those who claim to be experts, or those with ulterior motives tell them what HAS to be, thus my replies. I wanted those whom have basically claimed to be an expert here on these things, and basically tell the rest of us "it's for your own good because we say so" to produce theirs.

...And so far, I just see a lot of "almost" experts, but no real expert. I would hardly think simply working for a couple of radio shops, or setting up HAM radios, or dealing with a businesses radio system or dispatching would qualify someone to tell others that a tower in question that a multi site trunking public safety radio system in a county they don't even live or work in, HAS to be right there, or their house will burn down because public safety can not communicate. That's pure ridiculous emotional exaggeration. "Create a crisis, and then you can create your own solution"

Of course, the whole "It HAS to be right there" theory was dispelled when internal government communication came to light that was one of many sites that will work. So how can that be, if it HAD to be "right there" or it wouldn't work?

I saw nowhere where "Roswell voter" mentioned John's creek, their tower, or their plight, yet that's all the self proclaimed "know it all's" will debate.

This is not about Johns creek, their flyer, or their radio system.

....And if you have cake, .....you should eat it.

i guess MTS's above quote doesn't qualify as a "Expert" enough for you, despite though he has been working on and from what i see, maintaining radio systems from a young age. and not just mom and pop shops from what your claiming. commercial companies that employ these systems.

so RRR, you have no education in radios at all other than hobby level? how do you determine what is "Expert" enough? im pretty sure when someone is officially trained by manufacturers themselves, they become "EXPERTS". at least for my IT Experience, that is how it works. when you get certified by a manufacturer, you become a "Expert". when you maintain a entire system, you become a "Expert"

MTS has done MORE than enough to support evidence that he understands, has the full technical knowledge about how to design and deploy this system. rather than understand the issue you, Roswell and couple others ( not as harshly though ) want to make the tax payers spend a phenomenal more amount of money and not cry foul when they are going to have to re-pay that for causing the situation to start with.

forgetting about Johns Creek now, I'd like to see the evidence supporting Roswell's case, that the City does in fact have "Better" choices that would NOT cause a substantial increase in exponential terms the "Other" more appropriate locations that he and the others are claiming were ignored. I know Roswell area, MTS is dead on about that too. 80% if not more of that area is pretty much snobby elitist rich filth. even if the evidence is there, they have the money to pay for re-designing the system, I can 99.9% promise you though, they won't just sit there and NOT cry foul when those property taxes and other various fee's and surcharges start showing up. they want to keep that elitist money in their own pockets so they can go squander it on more Starbucks, Jaguar's, BMW's and Mercedes Benz' that they really don't need.

whats funny is, you RRR, have also failed to get the evidence yourself. those proposals are there.... MTS ( and i think ZZ ) nailed that one too. they ( the citizens ) never came to hardly any of the meetings ( or read the local paper for time and date of these meetings and also some of the agenda for said meetings) at the BEGINNING of the this to see where the tower was going to be built, but then oh no!! here comes the day they find out its a Lackley Rd..... SNAP!! NIMBY !! maybe they should use that money they have and get the documents and see for themselves.


then i spot this:

I understand the need for towers. I support them. If the Lackey Road tower was the optimal location and there was no increased cost to place it there to avoid public debate and a Council vote, I would grumble a bit at my personal impact, while accepting it for the betterment of public safety. But that is not the case...

oh..... so now after they looked at the information, people failed to use public knowledge and attend the meetings... it was determined that Lackey Rd was the most optimal location ( which you Roswell have failed to provide any info proving that Lackey Rd is NOT ) after reviewing the data as MTS has already established. it may very well be a initial "Alternate", but reviewing and revising the data will usually change that.

then you say "no increased cost" ...... PFFT .... a single tower vs. a WHOLE NEW SYSTEM? I fail to see the logic here how a SINGLE tower, will cost more than a ENTIRE SYSTEM consisting of more than one tower by far! that logic is most certainly flawed there, but what do you care? the money is there for the "modest" and "exquisite" population of Roswell, and like i said, don't go crying foul when taxes and surcharges start popping up.

again, initial designs are ALWAYS flawed in some way or another. what was once considered a "Alternate" after review and analysis has been re-designated "Optimal". it happens every day with designing things.








there is my cake, consumed and absorbed.

 

[rapidcharger]

Easier said than done. That freed up spectrum isn't necessarily available to everybody who wants it.)))

Great but these agencies all have licenses and frequencies already. Some of them even keep their analog/conv repeaters in working order to fall back on. They're narrowbanded and working and just sitting idle. Sometimes the cops get on there for a rag chew when they're waiting around to nab speeders because they think nobody listens to that anymore.

(((And the argument will be case studies of foot chases, plane crashes, and 4X4 accidents well outside the range of the extenders parked on the roadside.
)))

Would you personally buy a $450,000 diamond encrusted, solid gold toilet bowl in the chance you may come down with food poisoning for a week every 20 years? Because that's what this is like. A very elaborate system with features that are need needed and not used and providing *body worn* portable coverage where it is not needed is also just a big of a waste of money as buying a solid gold toilet bowl. In those cases where a body is found down at the creek, you can have units at the top relaying traffic to those down in the hole.... OR... you can simply take the radio out of its holster and use it like radios were used before every cop in america had a RSM. If they didn't weight 5 lbs each, they could wear the entire radio on their shoulder like they do in every other continent on earth. There's no sense in spending tens of millions of dollars for that once in a generation use that makes it possible to have the convenience of not having to lift your radio out of the holster. That's just silly.

(((The way I look at it is this: These guys are out there on a daily basis, THEY know what they need better than I do. My job is to build it and keep it working. )))

Well said. You left out the folks that have to figure out
HOW TO PAY FOR IT.
and
WHERE IS THE MONEY GOING TO COME FROM

I want a lot of things too. I have a lot of WANTS. Just like the cops, they want this and they want that. They don't NEED it, but they WANT it.

And YOU... your job is to provide what they want and keep it working.

And as a taxpayer, my job is to sit down and shut up about it.

But somewhere in there, there needs to be at least one person who has to figure out where is the money going to come from. Why do we need to blow money on this all of a sudden when we have bigger priorities. Or in this case, an existing radio system that works fine and another new one coming online in january that would be less costly to use. There needs to be that bean counter who says "Why are we spending $4,000 to pressure wash a fence when we've never paid more than $500 to do it in the past?"

(((I know some rural area cops who would be extremely offended by that statement. Drug labs, booby trapped marijuana fields, domestic terrorist training camps, plane crashes, train derailments with hazmat spills, etc. etc... I've seen them all happen in the rural jurisdictions I've worked for. )))

Sowwy. Cops are really sensitive.

(((Bad guess... but I suppose I can understand why the uninitiated here would think that. I'm the guy in engineering that solves the unsolvable problems. But after 30something years of talking to cops and firemen about their radio problems, trying to solve them, I have become very sympathetic to the people in the field doing the dirty work. I have learned to see the problems through their eyes. )))

You know what they dislike even worse than not having working radios???
They dislike not having any backup. They dislike having a day full of back to back calls because there's not enough staff. And often times that's the price these race-to-waste radio systems come at because the tens of millions of dollars have to come from somewhere. The one that really gets me peeved is when it's a jurisdiction that relies on VFDs. You can't even pay your fire fighters but you can muster millions for a digital, encrypted radio system.

(((Oh? You've priced out encryption for a large system? )))

I didn't say encryption. I said Privacy.
Encryption is unnecessary and prohibitively expensive for non-profit government agencies. Maybe for the secret service or military but civilian cops don't need it.

((( If I want to impart anything to you, and folks with similar points of view, it's that there are some solid reasons behind the complex and expensive systems being built. It's not all perfect, but I think the vast majority of project managers building these things really do have their hearts in the right place. What's often mistaken for corruption is sometime just a passionate feel for some particular system configuration. )))

Perhaps, that just like this homeowners association, there is no longer anyone to cut them off when they're living outside of their means. When they want something and waste money on it and have no clue where that money is going to come from and no clue where the money is going to come from to maintain it and replace it. But it sure is neat!

But we have to look at some of these deals and question how these got through. Areas that are notoriously wrought with corruption and improprieties.

 

[MTS2000des]

My credentials aren't stake here,

You called me out by name. So, either man up and tell us who YOU are, what YOUR qualifications are, or are you too afraid? My call sign is right next to my user name. Put up or shut up "RRR". You can't hold me to a standard and you be the exception. Doesn't work that way. Sorry, not gonna let this one go.

...And so far, I just see a lot of "almost" experts, but no real expert. I would hardly think simply working for a couple of radio shops, or setting up HAM radios, or dealing with a businesses radio system or dispatching would qualify someone to tell others that a tower in question that a multi site trunking public safety radio system in a county they don't even live or work in, HAS to be right there, or their house will burn down because public safety can not communicate. That's pure ridiculous emotional exaggeration. "Create a crisis, and then you can create your own solution"

Again, Mr. Anonymous ...did I ever assert I was an expert? YOU were the one who called me out by name, demanding I "show ID" and qualify my statements. Obviously you are deflecting and avoiding the question. I am merely holding you to the same standard you raised. In case you missed it, WHO are YOU, WHAT is YOUR NAME/CALL SIGN, and what experience do YOU HAVE? Why do you feel you are the only one who can have an opinion? What basis do you base yours on? What experience do YOU have with any of this?

I only ask this because YOU brought it up. You can't take it? Don't dish it out.

Still waiting for the answer....

....And if you have cake, .....you should eat it.

And if you aren't willing to put up or shut up, then well, quite frankly...
I can think of something else you can eat, begins with S and ends with T.

 

[MTS2000des]

Encryption is unnecessary and prohibitively expensive for non-profit government agencies.

It is not expensive on today's modern digital radio systems. Basic software based encryption like ADP, is $10 per radio, sometimes a "throw in" if needed to seal the deal. It isn't 1990 and the days of DES-XL.

On NXDN and DMR, basic encryption is included for free. Just a click of the mouse away.

Maybe for the secret service or military but civilian cops don't need it.

The civilian cops feel they do need it. Why, well who knows. Maybe they are not proud of what they do for the same reason some people in this thread refuse to put up their credentials they demand of others, or aren't proud of what they say to sign their name to their posts. Regardless, they feel there is a need, and the cost is not prohibitive as it may have been 10 to 20 years ago with digital.

When they want something and waste money on it and have no clue where that money is going to come from and no clue where the money is going to come from to maintain it and replace it. But it sure is neat!

But we have to look at some of these deals and question how these got through.

I don't disagree, which is why I asked "RoswellVoter" who made it a point to register here and is vehemently opposed to a tower site for a public safety radio network being built that really is not needed IF his agency chooses to SAVE ALMOST 8 MILLION DOLLARS and remain on the NEW Fulton county digital system which is set to go live next year.

But "RoswellVoter" has already slipped up and revealed the true motivations for what the NFRRS is all about, the desire for his/her fellow citizens to "secede" from Fulton county.

That's fine. For the record, I have NO PROBLEM with that at all. What I do have a problem is the whining and crying by him/her and others about the citing of towers for their new, separate network. If they want to be separate, then pay the cost and let it run it's course. It is, after all, what THEY want.

There is no disputing the current Fulton county owned Smartnet system is way past it's useful life and is in dire need of replacement. In less than 2 years, the county has properly bid out the replacement for the exact same thing "RoswellVoter" and his/her fellow taxpayers are ALREADY PAYING FOR through their county tax bill: a new Motorola Astro 25 phase 2 simulcast DTRS with the same body worn portable coverage throughout the ENTIRE Fulton county area from North to South.

Reality is those future NFRRS users will most likely migrate to the new Fulton system when it goes live as the existing analog system is shut down in the interim. This will really make one wonder why a separate, duplicate system is necessary at all. And this is the question that "RoswellVoter" should be asking.

The real "race to waste" is when taxpayers choose to pay twice for the same services they are already paying for. But that is THEIR choice. It is also THEIR bill to pay up. When they start complaining about the process they chose to invoke, this is where I stand up and call B.S.

 

[RRR]

And if you aren't willing to put up or shut up, then well, quite frankly...
I can think of something else you can eat, begins with S and ends with T.

Naughty boy! Name calling and insinuations of profanity is not allowed here. I would expect better from you. Be respectful, please.

I never claimed to be an expert, or had "expert" credentials, nor are my credentials at issue. You have presented your opinions as those of an expert. I called you out on that. You put up, but it wasn't quite enough. I do not believe you are an expert on trunking site tower placement from what was presented at hand. You may feel you are, and your friends here may be dazzled by your "credentials" and believe so too, but you are not, based on what qualifications you have presented. Knowledgeable on this kind of stuff? Sure, but not an "Expert"

I myself have Motorola training in Mototrbo, thus I am knowledgeable, but that doesn't make me an expert.

You have presented your opinions as those of an expert. I don't think they are enough to make a determination that a particular tower site in Roswell Georgia HAS to be right where the RoswellVoter guy doesn't want it. But I forgot, you peeked at the "secret documents"

And on that note, I still haven't seen anyone debate how you claim that can be the only site, IE; it HAS to be there, but there were also other options/sites presented, right there in public record. Sounds fishy to me, but what do I know, I'm not an expert either.

Lots has changed since you were a young lad hanging around the radio shops...