Roswell residents crying foul over proposed URS tower

Status
Not open for further replies.

MTS2000des

5B2_BEE00 Czar
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
5,848
Location
Cobb County, GA Stadium Crime Zone
The Lackey Road site was a fall-back location after the public notices required by the other options resulted in politically unfavorable responses. The Lackey Road option was specifically selected from the vetted sites after the others had pushback because of how they could get it approved. Kay Love's email even discussed her wanting to avoid public and Council involvement.

So, are you privy to the technical details, specifically delay spread, that were the main reasons for Lackey Road being selected, despite it requiring a lease? There is much more at play than you understand to get the specified DAQ and body worn portable coverage.

The cost of the lease for the site pales in comparison to having to re-engineer the ENTIRE system to get the optimized delay spread to prevent imbalanced coverage towards the edges of the system. But you don't want to hear that, because you are stuck on the fact that the city wants to move forward with this project. Remember this is a SHARED system that the other north county cities are waiting on too, sans Johns Creek, who is staying on Fulton's system and will be moving to their new DUPLICATE P25 system also being built in your backyard. I am surprised you aren't fuming about that, which you might actually have a valid argument for forcing the north county cities to save money and become a stakeholder in the new Fulton county system which goes live in January. But you north Fultoners want "separate but equal"...

Shame on them for getting them off a 25 year old radio system that is on it's last leg and outright dangerous! I know, you think they should just use their cellphones right? :roll:
 

RRR

OFFLINE
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 6, 2005
Messages
2,051
Location
USA
What you are failing to realize, or comprehend ....or acknowledge, is the site the Roswell voter is concerned about is not even the "prime" site they wanted in the first place, it is a "fall back" location.

So much for your theory of "it HAS to be right there"

Do you even care about the facts, or are you too emotional about this to bring it to fair reasoning?
 

rapidcharger

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2012
Messages
2,382
Location
The land of broken calculators.
It's rather humorous too see who's involved in this discussion actually know something about public safety radio system and those who simply feel they are qualified to do so because they can program a scanner and make a RR account. Just because a user may have thousands of post counts on here, doesn't mean they are qualified to be involved in public safety radio engineering....at all.

As I sad earlier, tower site spacing for P25 simulcast is critical. You CAN NOT simply throw in a tower site here and there and expect overlapping coverage to just work. There is a bunch of math involved here. Many systems that were poorly engineered on P25 simulcast have ended up to be money pit failures due to improper site spacing.

Did you ever stop to think that the proposed site was considered due to simulcast overlap engineering calculations ? I know this doesn't compute because it's above most scanner operator's ability to understand this.

Microwave paths. You do know you need a little bit more than just being able to see the other sites ? There's this thing called the Fresnel zone that needs to be free from obstructions to prevent reflections, refractions...etc. Again, this is above the comprehension of Joe public or John Scanner Engineer. Perhaps this site was also picked due to clean microwave paths. Fresnel zone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So a ham station can talk 20 miles and he has an antenna in his attic....wow. Stunning. Again, this shows the posters lack of credibility in the public safety communications field. I wont even begin to rip this apart, as it's just absurd.

Why simulcast ? A few reasons. In a trunking system type of world, if you had a 5 site 5 channel trunking system, you would need 5 frequencies licensed to the system. There would also be no worry about affiliation between sites as a radio moves around. In a non simulcast system with 5 sites and 5 channels, you would need 25 trunked frequencies for the system. This adds huge costs to licensing and coordination and inter modulation concerns, and radios now will have to affiliate as they drive from site to site. I would think for a city as big as Roswell, a small P25 simulcast trunking system would be perfect. In a large statewide or wide area system, it's not practical to do simulcast.

Either way it goes, if the city needs it's communications needs met, it will get done one way or another. By being a NIMBY terrorist you can sleep well knowing you saved your "awesome view" and smile paying more for your property taxes knowing you added a few million dollars to the cost of a new system due to having to workaround a site that couldn't be had.

Since you're obviously referring to me, and since I evidently don't know anything about public safety radio systems (no disagreement from me there) how about you do your best to explain it to me why this is necessary. No, not why the tower spacing is necessary but why is a P25 simulcast trunking system necessary when so many small, medium and large cities alike are doing just fine with analog conventional. Or digital conventional for that matter, Or single site DMR or NXDN. What I find the most perplexing is all of the money wasted for this additional complexity when it invites so many problems later down the road, so many "systems" appear to be poorly engineered and have problems or are unreliable for some reason or another. And before I get accused of hijacking the thread, this is relevant to the discussion because if it weren't for operation on 7/800 mHz and if it weren't for this overly complicated race-to-waste DTRS in a semi-rural hilly area, they could do just fine without multiple large towers. I just want to know why would anyone insist on going with this kind of "system" in this particular area.

It's a fair question.
If you know so much more than I do, an explanation is in order. Thanks.
And Have a Nice day.
 

zz0468

QRT
Banned
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Messages
6,034
Having lived through the process of trying to build sites and towers in areas where the public doesn't want them qualifies me to make a few comments directed to those who oppose the tower...

First off, we can't compare what's currently being required of new systems with they way it's been done in the past, or the way some other smallish jurisdictions do it. Every system is unique, it has it's own politics, it's own topography, it's own channel loading requirements. There are a lot of decisions that aren't necessarily in the public domain, nor are they required to be.

Public Safety communications requirements aren't what they were even just a few years ago. There are a lot of lessons learned from the first generations of 800 MHz systems, and new specifications are tighter. 95/95 (95% area coverage, 95% of the time) requirements for portable-on-hip coverage, and requirements to cover inside commercial and industrial structures require multiple sites to replace older systems that consisted of a single site in the past. Interoperability requirements add to channel loading plans. Updated ANSI specifications (TIA-222-G) require heavier duty towers, especially those required for public safety systems. And on and on and on...

In siting towers and doing coverage design, a number of factors come into play. From the engineering perspective, it's all about location, and tower elevations. From a financial perspective, it's all about cost of land acquisition and permitting. From a political perspective, it's where you are now. No one WANTS to piss off the public just to build a tower in a specific place. What's at issue is the public perception vs project manager perceptions as to what constitutes a good reason to put it there.

Frequently a search radius is drawn and a tower can be acceptably placed anywhere within the search radius. That's a nice tool to have, when it works, but sometimes that search radius can be awful damned small. There can be circumstances where a single tower that can't be built must be replaced by two or more located elsewhere. There can also be mitigating circumstances that can take a proposed location off the preferred list, and an alternate gets pushed, lending the public perception that a secondary site location is being jammed down their throat when a better location was previously chosen.

Why not the preferred location? Sometimes it's because of frequency coordination issues. Sometimes it's land ownership, sometimes a critical right-of-way can't be obtained or modified. Thing is, every site is a unique one-of-a-kind situation, and it can be incredibly complicated. I've seen projects drag out several years beyond their due date because of site acquisition issues. Site and land acquisition is chock full of pitfalls, and it's not at all unreasonable for an agency to sidestep some sites where the legal costs alone can exceed the cost of the hardware for a site, and have no guarantee of being successful. An intelligent and cost effective choice is to favor a piece of land that is relatively unencumbered by legalities. Trouble is, that parcel could very well be next door to YOU.

Designing these systems can be extremely complex, and extremely stressful, especially when the time comes for public input. The general public decries things like radiation from microwave dishes (harmless beyond about 18" of even the largest, highest power point to point links), to bird kills caused by towers built in migratory paths. I've never seen a dead bird at the base of a tower, BTW, in a career spanning over 35 years and maybe 150 mountain tops.

The aesthetic thing is a tough one to fight. To those of us in the business, a new tower and a new site is a work of art to be appreciated. To the general public, a tower site is, at best ugly, and at worst, a waste of taxpayer money. The problem with the public perceptions, however, is that they seldom come with useful alternative suggestions. Lacking the technical background that goes behind these things, the public comes up with many creative reasons to protest the project, or maybe just the site. Sometimes these are based on half truths, and pseudoscience, and sometimes it's just raw emotion - "It's UGLY and DANGEROUS and I don't want the damned thing in my backyard!"

There are no easy answers. Those building the project need to be as sensitive as they can to these public perceptions. The agency I work for recently built a disguise site in a sensitive area, without a huge amount of heartache from the neighbors. And those protesting the tower site need to realize that there are going to be some reasons beyond their level of expertise that are driving that site to be THERE, and alternatives are either not possible, or are economically prohibitive. And pushing for a particular location is not always a scandal or a power play - the site may just NEED to be there - the laws of physics trumps everything else.
 
Last edited:

RRR

OFFLINE
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 6, 2005
Messages
2,051
Location
USA
Something that continues to be ignored, is that some of you are demanding that that tower site HAS to be right where the Roswell citizen does not want it, yet there were several other alternatives that were considered before, and were not chosen because obviously the city did not want the public input.

If the system in question is so sensitive that it HAD to be right there, then why are there (were there) many other tower sites in that general area for that site that are/were under consideration?

That being said, it completely dispels the argument of "it HAS to be right there, or the fire dept. can't put a fire out at your house" and other such emotional BS.
 

rapidcharger

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2012
Messages
2,382
Location
The land of broken calculators.
Something that continues to be ignored, is that some of you are demanding that that tower site HAS to be right where the Roswell citizen does not want it, yet there were several other alternatives that were considered before, and were not chosen because obviously the city did not want the public input.

If the system in question is so sensitive that it HAD to be right there, then why are there (were there) many other tower sites in that general area for that site that are/were under consideration?

That being said, it completely dispels the argument of "it HAS to be right there, or the fire dept. can't put a fire out at your house" and other such emotional BS.

I must say, it reminds me a lot of the new Braves Stadium being built where the people who live in that area clearly did not want it. There were alternative places to build it yet nobody would listen.
 

rapidcharger

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2012
Messages
2,382
Location
The land of broken calculators.
First off, we can't compare what's currently being required of new systems with they way it's been done in the past, or the way some other smallish jurisdictions do it. Every system is unique, it has it's own politics, it's own topography, it's own channel loading requirements. There are a lot of decisions that aren't necessarily in the public domain, nor are they required to be.)))

That's a nice introduction however it doesn't help me understand why it's necessary to go with a band that is inappropriate, a system type that is unnecessary and overly complex and one of the largest expenses most cities and towns run into nowadays.

(((Public Safety communications requirements aren't what they were even just a few years ago. There are a lot of lessons learned from the first generations of 800 MHz systems, and new specifications are tighter. 95/95 (95% area coverage, 95% of the time) requirements for portable-on-hip coverage, and requirements to cover inside commercial and industrial structures require multiple sites to replace older systems that consisted of a single site in the past)))

One of the biggest lessons that should have been learned from the first generations of 800mHz is that it's a band that requires a lot more infrastructure to get coverage, particularly in areas that have hilly terrain and heavily forested such as the area being discussed. As I also pointed out already it is a semi-rural area, portable on-hip coverage in 95% of the area is a nice goal but it's an unnecessary goal. It's like asking for cell phone coverage in 95% of Alaska. It'd be great but it won't be used. However that is essentially what they are constructing and demanding although they have never before needed it and they don't need it now.


(((. Interoperability requirements add to channel loading plans.
Interoperability is a post 9/11 concept that has never been proven to be used, at least not often enough to warrant the cost of DTRS solely for that purpose and from what I've read and learned from the users, interoperability is most often not required over large multi-county distances but instead at close range distances when switching the channel to a common interagency interop frequency has proven to be adequate for decades.
It's like spending billions of dollars a year to take off the shoes of toddlers who are boarding an airplane to inspect for explosives.

I was recently removed from my homeowners association's board of directors for asking too many questions about why things cost what they cost now when they have never cost that much before and why only one bid ever gets obtained anymore.
A couple of notable recent examples are

1.) Why does it cost $4,000 to pressure wash a fence now, with a sole source bidder when the most we've ever paid was $500? I know what we paid in the past because I wrote and signed the checks. The board voted unanimously to approve the $4000 anyway even though we didn't have it in our budget to pay that much. The only person who even bothered to go and walk the fence to see if it even needed to be cleaned was ME. And it wasn't that dirty.

2.) Why did it cost us $750 last year to limb up 50 street trees to school bus height and this year the sole bid comes in at $1500 for only 30 trees, only 7 of which were actually needing to be pruned per the school bus driver? And this was the exact same tree service as the year before.

So pardon me if I'm just incredibly dense. But when numbers don't add up, and things seem unnecessary, I ask WHY? :confused: Getting removed from the board was an accomplishment I'll wear like an honor badge until the day I die. It only confirms that I was right in asking about those expenditures and the rush decisions and corruption.

Public safety radio procurement has turned into the $4,000 sole bid pressure washing job. By the way, I made a few phone calls the very next day and found someone who washed the whole fence for $600 and did a great job.

There's nothing wrong with asking;
Why does this have cost this much?
Why is this suddenly needed?
What are other cities doing?
What are other cities in the area doing?
How many proposals have we obtained?

You are coming from the engineering standpoint of the extremely complex technicalities of building out what amounts to a private cellular network for police and fire walkie talkies to be used in a hilly, wooded rural area with unreasonably narrow tolerances.

I am coming from the business and accounting standpoint.
I am not saying you're wrong with the technical aspects, I am merely trying to understand why it is necessary to do this at all. I have not heard of the tower debates or complexities or delays in neighboring counties that have recently installed DMR radio systems on 450 and 150 mHz. Not to mention they cost many millions less.
 

MTS2000des

5B2_BEE00 Czar
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
5,848
Location
Cobb County, GA Stadium Crime Zone
The real questions that should be asked is why the citizens of North Fulton need to pay for an additional radio system at all when Fulton county is rolling out a similar network built to the SAME specifications for portable coverage in the ENTIRE county (which includes the planned coverage of the NFURS). Sites have already been selected, equipment is here, waiting to be turned on and optimized. Same vendor, same everything.

The cost for the north county cities would be about 1/4th of what building out a duplicate, disparate network will be, and keep in mind, the new county Phase 2 system will cover the ENTIRE county, which means more interagency interoperability, no need to ISSI when north cities units go downtown for jail runs, court, mutual aid, etc. They were offered a buy-in but declined opting rather to spend considerably MORE of their taxpayers money to build a separate system that is yet another isolated island. Other counties like Cobb, DeKalb, Gwinnett, Walton, Forsyth, and Coweta/Heard/Carroll all share countywide owned and controlled systems with their cities and share the costs across the board.

This is the tough question RoswellVoter SHOULD be asking. He/she may not even have to waste their ink printing up hilariously technically inaccurate flyers. If the cities of Roswell, Alpharetta, Milton and Sandy Springs would do what Johns Creek is and just get on board with the county's new system, they would be live on a reliable digital phase 2 system much sooner (like January of next year sooner or there about) and for MUCH LESS MONEY. Every North Fulton resident is also a FULTON COUNTY taxpayer and are ALREADY PAYING for the new county system anyway!

But snobbery has it's price. I guess they can afford it. Just don't whine about new tower site needed. It's already been established why (from a technical standpoint). Get over it. You want to be separate? Pay the cost to be the boss. Your choice, your consequence.
 

K4SVT

Completely Banned for the Greater Good
Banned
Joined
Nov 21, 2003
Messages
1,157
I was hanging out Rural/Metro today...they have some busted up Mcs2000s and Mts2000s i really think they deserve a upgrade...

Sent via LG G2 on Sprint 4G LTE Spark
 

RoswellVoter

Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2014
Messages
28
Something that continues to be ignored, is that some of you are demanding that that tower site HAS to be right where the Roswell citizen does not want it, yet there were several other alternatives that were considered before, and were not chosen because obviously the city did not want the public input.

If the system in question is so sensitive that it HAD to be right there, then why are there (were there) many other tower sites in that general area for that site that are/were under consideration?

That being said, it completely dispels the argument of "it HAS to be right there, or the fire dept. can't put a fire out at your house" and other such emotional BS.

Correct. The ORR response from Roswell backs this up. But some people here don't want facts...
 

K4SVT

Completely Banned for the Greater Good
Banned
Joined
Nov 21, 2003
Messages
1,157
Applied for a job..they were showing me around..

Sent via LG G2 on Sprint 4G LTE Spark
 

K4SVT

Completely Banned for the Greater Good
Banned
Joined
Nov 21, 2003
Messages
1,157
But i was just saying..

Sent via LG G2 on Sprint 4G LTE Spark
 

RRR

OFFLINE
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 6, 2005
Messages
2,051
Location
USA
Man, chill. Nobody is debating if their radios are ok, or if they need a new system, they may or may not, that's an aside.

We do know you rubber stamp everything MTS2000DES says, that's very obvious. Still nothing you have offered is very useful to the discussion at hand.
 

hitechRadio

Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2010
Messages
556
It pretty simple, scare the $*!% out of people by putting up a web site Stop the 400 Foot Tower in Johns Creek and handing out flyers.

Most people have no clue about this type of stuff. No fault of there own.
I might be scared to if I didn't work in the industry.

Note: Still trying to figure out how scared I should be of Ebola, I don't work in the Infectious disease field.

The person/s who made up al that BS, should take some Gorginite with Chemtrail lube, and shove it up there, you no what.

Just say you don't want the dang tower in your back yard, cause it's ugly (I would disagree there ugly).

But if the web site had been honest and didn't have out right lies, they would of had little support.


Hmmmmmm sounds familiar. They took the play right out of the governments play book. Scare the crap out of the people, they will do as we say!

There getting more RADIATION from there cell phones and WIFI AP's then they ever would from the tower.
 
Last edited:

zz0468

QRT
Banned
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Messages
6,034
One of the biggest lessons that should have been learned from the first generations of 800mHz is that it's a band that requires a lot more infrastructure to get coverage, particularly in areas that have hilly terrain and heavily forested such as the area being discussed.

This is true. It's long been my opinion that 800 MHz is not the optimum place to put these types of services but there are a couple of mitigating circumstances that make it necessary:

1. It's where the available spectrum has been.
3. The same propagation characteristics that make it challenging to provide coverage allow for a greater amount of frequency reuse.

As I also pointed out already it is a semi-rural area, portable on-hip coverage in 95% of the area is a nice goal but it's an unnecessary goal.

Unnecessary? You tell that to the police, who are demanding that, if they are expected to maintain law and order in 100% of their jurisdiction, they expect to be able to call for help when they need it. I've talked to cops who tell me stories about being alone on a rural patrol, wrestling with a suspect who's grabbing for their gun, trying to cuff the guy with one hand, and call for help on his HT with the other, and praying that they're not in one of those many dead areas.

The engineers and manufacturers are merely catering to their customer, and it is the customer that defines what is, and isn't needed. In this day and age, building a new system with coverage deficiencies designed into it is not an acceptable answer to the people in the field.

Public Safety agencies are demanding greater bandwidth, more features, more redundancy to guard against failure, better coverage, and more reliable hardware. Their perception is that police work is changing. The caliber of threats they are expected to face is growing. Terrorism is a buzz word that's way overused, but criminal gangs are getting more violent, and broaching territory where they've never before been seen. Drug cartels are getting bolder, and crossing border areas more and more frequently. And so on. The perception of law enforcement is that the sleepy little rural areas have as much potential for violent crime as rural areas.

It's not my job to second guess that perception.

It's like asking for cell phone coverage in 95% of Alaska. It'd be great but it won't be used. However that is essentially what they are constructing and demanding although they have never before needed it and they don't need it now.

That's making some pretty wild assumptions.

Interoperability is a post 9/11 concept that has never been proven to be used, at least not often enough to warrant the cost of DTRS solely for that purpose...

No trunked system is built "solely for that purpose". Interoperability is simply one of MANY reasons to build a larger system.

There's nothing wrong with asking;
Why does this have cost this much?
Why is this suddenly needed?
What are other cities doing?
What are other cities in the area doing?
How many proposals have we obtained?

Those are all good questions that need to be asked. So ask them. But please, please give public safety agencies the common courtesy of actually listening to the answers.

There are a lot of factors out of local control that force the price of communications systems upward. FCC mandates for spectrum efficiency are what drives the need for trunked radio systems in the first place. FCC and Congressional mandates are what created the available spectrum at 700/800 MHz in the first place.

You are coming from the engineering standpoint of the extremely complex technicalities of building out what amounts to a private cellular network for police and fire walkie talkies to be used in a hilly, wooded rural area with unreasonably narrow tolerances.

As technology advances, everyone wants to apply it to their particular field of endeavor. Police and Fire agencies are no different in that regard. Many of the features that are available now, have been wanted by police for 50 years. Some level of privacy, enough channels so different functions can operate unencumbered with another divisions radio traffic, coverage whereever, and whenever circumstances dictate that they operate from. Emergency man-down buttons, automatic location services, mobile data, instant access to wants and warrants information, etc. etc. etc.

It is these user requirements that drive the need for these massively expensive systems. I, for one, would feel really uncomfortable telling some law enforcement agency who is asking for up to date modern communications that no, you're getting a single low band voice channel.

...I am not saying you're wrong with the technical aspects, I am merely trying to understand why it is necessary to do this at all.

Hopefully some of my explanations above have answered some of your questions as to the why. Society is evolving, and as it evolves, what was deemed adequate 30 or 40 years ago is now deemed as dangerously inadequate. You used the analogy of your homeowners association. I'll use the analogy of our military.

As the military requests more advanced fighter aircraft to counter current threats, not all of which have happened yet, this would be like telling them to deploy a fleet of P-51's because, what the hell, they were the premier fighter airplane back in the last world war. They oughta be good enough for the next one.

I have not heard of the tower debates or complexities or delays in neighboring counties that have recently installed DMR radio systems on 450 and 150 mHz. Not to mention they cost many millions less.

It's a big country. That doesn't mean they're not happening.
 
Last edited:

RRR

OFFLINE
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 6, 2005
Messages
2,051
Location
USA
Um, y'all do know the John's creek tower and the Roswell tower are two different things, and two different issues, don't you? I keep seeing reference to this. I think the Roswell fella actually has his head on his shoulders.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top