SaiaNet/DMR Questions in WNY

[rs16]

I finally upgraded my 436HP with the DMR upgrade. I’ve been scanning the whole system with various service types enabled. I’m trying to make sure I’m understanding everything correctly. Any explantations would be appreciated.

1. Is SaiaNet considered simulcast? I’m thinking it’s just digital trunking but wanted to confirm that. Or is it analog trunking since I’m seeing NFM often?

2. I keep hearing transmissions from Buffalo PD Ch 2, TG ID 500123, from UB Cooke Hall. Does that mean it would always come from Cooke Hall?

3. Why would Buffalo PD come from UB Amherst instead of a site in Buffalo?

4. What does Color mean in my display?

5. I see S1 or S2 flashing at the bottom. Does that refer to the frequency at particular sites?

 

[dave3825]

I finally upgraded my 436HP with the DMR upgrade.

I’m thinking it’s just digital trunking but wanted to confirm that. Or is it analog trunking since I’m seeing NFM often?

TRS means Trunk Radio System. DMR is Digital Mobile Radio

I keep hearing transmissions from Buffalo PD Ch 2, TG ID 500123, from UB Cooke Hall. Does that mean it would always come from Cooke Hall?

Why would Buffalo PD come from UB Amherst instead of a site in Buffalo?

Units will be heard off any site they affiliate to.

What does Color mean in my display?

If you mean Color Code, its like a pl or ctcss tone. Used to allow different agencies the ability to transmit on the same freq.

I see S1 or S2 flashing at the bottom. Does that refer to the frequency at particular sites?

S1 and S2 are time slots.

Physical and Logical Channels | Tait Radio Academy

This topic covers the two kinds of channels that are included in a DMR system. DMR uses physical hardware channels, which is a receiver and a transmitter operating in a 12.5-kilohertz narrow bandwidth. You can see in the diagram below, a base station split into a receiver and a transmitter...

www.taitradioacademy.com

 

[Whiskey3JMC]

1. Is SaiaNet considered simulcast? I’m thinking it’s just digital trunking but wanted to confirm that. Or is it analog trunking since I’m seeing NFM often?

Some sites yes, some no. Go to the RRDB listing, click on the site name in question. If you see more than one blue antenna icon on the map this can be an indicator but to be absolutely sure, click on each site's callsign(s) and take a look at the frequency listing for each site (location). If the same frequency pattern is observed at each location then the sites are simulcast. Some sites are single-cell and this is typically denoted by one antenna icon on the site map as shown for example on Site 2

DMR/MotoTRBO systems are always digital, never analog. NFM refers to the bandwidth of the frequency(ies) not the voice protocol used

4. What does Color mean in my display?

Color CODE? This is the DMR equivalent of an analog PL or DPL tone in a way. Numbers (despite the misnomer "color") range from zero to 15

5. I see S1 or S2 flashing at the bottom. Does that refer to the frequency at particular sites?

These are timeslots (slot 1 and slot 2 respectively). Basically two talkgroups can be carried within a single frequency (TDMA). Read more here

 

[sallen07]

I finally upgraded my 436HP with the DMR upgrade. I’ve been scanning the whole system with various service types enabled. I’m trying to make sure I’m understanding everything correctly. Any explantations would be appreciated.

You don't want to scan the whole system. Only scan the site(s) that are close enough for your scanner to 'hear'. Based on some of your other questions, I can assume that you are in the Buffalo metro area somewhere. If that is the case, then it makes no sense for you to try and scan sites that are 50 or more miles away like Bristol, Rochester, or Jamestown. What I would do (and have done for Saianet) is give each site its own quick key, then go through them one at a time and see which ones you can receive. Even then you may want to pare down to one or two sites.

1. Is SaiaNet considered simulcast? I’m thinking it’s just digital trunking but wanted to confirm that. Or is it analog trunking since I’m seeing NFM often?

You are seeing "NFM" because the scanner is trying to find a control channel for a site that is too far away for you to receive. If it finds a control channel for a site you will see the frequency, not "NFM".

I started looking through the sites and did see a couple that showed multiple tower locations, but honestly I am skeptical that they are correct. I will let someone who knows more about Saianet to weigh in.

 

[rs16]

You don't want to scan the whole system. Only scan the site(s) that are close enough for your scanner to 'hear'. Based on some of your other questions, I can assume that you are in the Buffalo metro area somewhere. If that is the case, then it makes no sense for you to try and scan sites that are 50 or more miles away like Bristol, Rochester, or Jamestown. What I would do (and have done for Saianet) is give each site its own quick key, then go through them one at a time and see which ones you can receive. Even then you may want to pare down to one or two sites.

You are seeing "NFM" because the scanner is trying to find a control channel for a site that is too far away for you to receive. If it finds a control channel for a site you will see the frequency, not "NFM".

I started looking through the sites and did see a couple that showed multiple tower locations, but honestly I am skeptical that they are correct. I will let someone who knows more about Saianet to weigh in.

I set my range to 8 miles, so I was only getting local things, but your point is well taken.

 

[rs16]

Why would Buffalo PD come from UB Amherst instead of a site in Buffalo?

Units will be heard off any site they affiliate to.

Does that mean it’s fixed to and will always come from Cooke Hall in Amherst? It’s the only site I’ve seen so far for BPD on SaiaNet.

 

[Whiskey3JMC]

Units will be heard off any site they affiliate to.
Does that mean it’s fixed to and will always come from Cooke Hall in Amherst? It’s the only site I’ve seen so far for BPD on SaiaNet.

Affiliation

 

[GTR8000]

None of the SaiaNet sites are simulcast cells. Multiple markers showing up on the site details page map simply means that more than one physical location falls under the license(s) assigned to the site; it is not an indicator of a simulcast cell.

 

[rs16]

None of the SaiaNet sites are simulcast cells. Multiple markers showing up on the site details page map simply means that more than one physical location falls under the license(s) assigned to the site; it is not an indicator of a simulcast cell.

Thanks, I think the NFTA is the only simulcast around here, but not totally sure.

 

[sallen07]

None of the SaiaNet sites are simulcast cells. Multiple markers showing up on the site details page map simply means that more than one physical location falls under the license(s) assigned to the site; it is not an indicator of a simulcast cell.

Thank you for clarifying that!

 

[rs16]

Affiliation

OK…I was doing OK reading that for a while…and then totally lost the plot. I’m thinking it’s affiliated with Cooke Hall in Amherst, but doesn’t have to be? Still not sure really.

Why wouldn’t it just be affiliated with a site in the city for Buffalo PD?

 

[GTR8000]

Trunked systems, especially ones that cover a wide area, allow radios (known as "subscribers") to join (affiliate with) sites that might be outside of their normal coverage area. This is normal behavior and happens quite often. So yes, you might get activity on a Buffalo PD talkgroup on a site outside of the city from time to time, for any number of reasons. Could be as simple as a PD car is on a detail and has traveled outside of the area. Or a supervisor lives outside of the city and turns his radio on at home. Or....insert any number of scenarios.

Oh and no, just because you hear them today doesn't mean you always will. You might, but there is never any guarantee when the site and talkgroup combination don't fall within "normal coverage area".

 

[Wackyracer]

I monitor West Seneca on Saianet, I use the Lancaster site because it has less traffic and less frequencies than the Seneca One tower and works for my location (YMMV), therefore the scanner can cycle through those frequencies faster and when parked on that sytsem with that site I catch more of their transmissions.

Figure out what you want to hear, pick a site (you more than likely will not need ALL the Saianet sites programmed in) Only use that site for that entity.

 

[ak716]

OK…I was doing OK reading that for a while…and then totally lost the plot. I’m thinking it’s affiliated with Cooke Hall in Amherst, but doesn’t have to be? Still not sure really.

Why wouldn’t it just be affiliated with a site in the city for Buffalo PD?

I thought we beat this horse dead a while ago in prior post with other members....

TG's are "resources" on a TRS, regardless of is being DMR, NXDN, P25, etc. Wherever a subscriber (radio) goes, as long as that subscriber and that TG have the correct provisions, that resource will go with it. UB is a good example of dragging TG's to other towers. Wherever a subscriber for UB PD goes, their TG goes with them (assuming the system allows it). Say the UB PD subscriber goes to Syracuse, and the BPD patch TG's are provisioned to go systemwide, and that UB radio is provisioned to go systemwide, it will or can come with it. So, BPD's patch channel that the UB PD subscriber radio is affiliating with (affiliating meaning that channel is actually selected on that radio, because scanning is a whole other potential issue) will come across the tower with the best signal for that subscriber. UB, again, good example, their PD operates in at least two jurisdictions (Buffalo and Amherst). So, while in Amherst, and potentially affiliating with the Cooke Hall site, could still have a need, or want, to listen to BPD. The system knows what sites the radios are operating on, and what TG's need to be broadcasted over those sites, and does all the "magic". Does that make sense?

 

[rs16]

A little bit…I appreciate your efforts. If it’s a dead horse topic, it’s because it’s so complex. I don’t really have the capacity to absorb this level of radio knowledge.

As you said, some magic happens so I’m able to hear what’s going on in WNY, so I’m good.

 

[chrismol1]

A little bit…I appreciate your efforts. If it’s a dead horse topic, it’s because it’s so complex. I don’t really have the capacity to absorb this level of radio knowledge.

As you said, some magic happens so I’m able to hear what’s going on in WNY, so I’m good.

Think of it this way, similar to cellular technology. The radio "roams" & "connects" to the nearest best site as it moves thru coverage areas

 

[k2hz]

I think some of the confusion is that the Buffalo PD and NYS Thruway links are for use only by SaiaNet subscribers and not directly by units of those agencies. So the Buffalo PD link will be heard only over the site(s) where a subscriber such as the UB Police have an affiliated unit at the time which may not necessarily be in Buffalo. Links will also generally not be active on any site if no subscribers are affiliated.

Also, even actual user TGs are heard only on sites where their subscriber units are affiliated at the time.

Be careful about scanning multiple sites or you will miss calls. When not monitoring an actual call, the scanner has to tune to each site one at a time checking the Control Channel data for active TGs on your scan list.

 

[Wackyracer]

"TGs are heard only on sites where their subscriber units are affiliated at the time"

My experience with Saianet in Buffalo NY area is.....A subscriber TG can be affiliated on 2 sites or more at the same time. Therefore as I said before, you do not necessarily need all the sites in the system programmed in. If UB is closer use that one, If Seneca One is closer use that one. If you still are not sure, then set up one site per entity, then duplicate using only one site (different one every time you duplicate the system) until you figure out which ones catch the most transmission of the TG you're interested in, then delete or turn off the other entries.

 

[GTR8000]

A subscriber TG can be affiliated on 2 sites or more at the same time.

Let's be clear here...the terms "subscriber" and "talkgroup" refer to two different things. A subscriber is a radio authorized to operate on a system, a talkgroup is a virtual "channel" on the system. That said, a talkgroup being carried across multiple sites of a multi-site system of any kind (P25, DMR, NXDN, etc.) is common practice, not unique to SaiaNet.

But again, the most important point is that the talkgroup will only be carried at a site if a subscriber (radio) is affiliated with (operating on) that site. Unless the system admin forces a talkgroup to always be carried at a site, the default operation of trunked systems is to only carry traffic if there is an affiliation at the site(s).

Bottom line: Talkgroups can come and go at sites based on this very basic premise of how these systems work. Maybe you get lucky and your favorite talkgroup is carried at your local site 99% of the time, but in some circumstances that's not always a guarantee.

 

[jmbialk1]

Ok I have a hopefully simple question, I live Near UB North Campus (cooke hall tower) and I want to only monitor UBPD, would it be safe to assume I can get away with only programming the cooke hall site into my scanner and get away with hearing 99% of the communication. I currently monitor 3-4 sites and feel like that is not needed?