San Francisco Zoo Employees Shocked Over Alleged Spying Scandal

[karldotcom]

Every email and phone call in this country is recorded. How are people not aware of this yet? You have no expectation of privacy.

 

[MTS2000des]

I know right.

To put it in perspective, here's Icom America's demonstration of how a typical LMR user might use remote monitor on an iDAS (NXDN) digital radio. Kind of puts it all in perspective:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Y3O2Z0_dlj0

 

[radioman2001]

It's one thing to remotely monitor when the employee knows about it, such as an audible beep notification or some other means. Using the emergency button would be allowed since the operator initiated it, and that would cover liability in the event of an emergency. Man down sensor would cover the unintended events as is required in all radios in the EU.
To randomly just bring up someones mic to see whats going on is another, it's called bugging or wire tapping. I know NYPD had a specific clause in their contract years ago that prohibited any means of identification (MDC ID) or monitoring of their radios, and I don't know if that still applies in this piss poor post 911 world.
I see the good and bad of this, but the fact that the employees were NOT advised that they were being monitored remotely if it were to occur in New York that is a felony. I suspect most States have similar laws or should. Most unions have contracts that say you have to carry a portable, but it doesn't have to be on, plus you are not responsible for what happens to the radio. Lost stolen damaged etc, and you could place tape over the mic, put the radio in your pocket or just leave it off.
I have an employee that refuses to take his portable since we told him it had GPS in it. It didn't but it does show the mentality of some individuals.
Yes there are those that come to work and get paid but not work. Using remote monitoring radios is not a way to solve this. I suspect that if an incident ever came up that required remediation the company would lose and possibly be held accountable for invasion of privacy by local or even federal law. Bad all around, but especially for the company.
I would love to be the first one to sue not only the company but the radio manufacturer for offering a device to the company that breaks the law. Maybe that can be a way to slow down the forthcoming 1984.

 

[mitbr]

So what if management uses remote monitor? These employees are whining infants. When you are on your employer's property using their equipment, they have every right to monitor what you do.

If you are doing your job, you have nothing to worry about, right?

If they are that worried about it, they just implemented the Streisand Effect. Now they've just called themselves out even more.

Hey San Fran zoo employees, if you think management was listening before, REST ASSURED they are listening and watching you now.

+1
Guys when at work your management is watching you period. Even if you think they are not they are.
Tim

 

[radioman2001]

Quote"
Guys when at work your management is watching you period. Even if you think they are not they are. Quote"

Maybe but they aren't using your own body to accomplish it. Plus they have to abide the Law and common sense, something government agencies seem to forget.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=Y3O2Z0_dlj0

I think the radio has to be set up for remote monitor. Plus that actually is a good way to defeat it, leave it by a FM radio playing AC DC.

 

[PACNWDude]

I guess I should tell everyone I have sold or provided a Motorola radio to, that this feature may or may not be enabled.
Please bring it back at $50 per hours for me to read its codeplug and see if it is enabled. Once status has been determined, I can enable or disable the feature at the same rate. Note that that is a discounted rate, only for me to determine the status of this one feature, additional programming costs extra.

 

[WQPW689]

Again, nothing in this incident involves recording, unless I misunderstood the report. So all your mantra about unauthorized recording doesn't apply in the situation at hand.

Makes no difference whatsoever. If it's an intended electronic interception of an oral communication, it's covered under the various federal and State wiretapping laws.

Unless the required permissions are there, whether they're statutory or contractual, these type of things will land you in big trouble.

In any event, if this is such a minor kerfuffle, why did the Zoo Director hasten to let everyone know the feature's disabled?

Doubt it's going much of anywhere since the steps taken, but anyone who thinks an employer can monitor oral communications at will in any manner they wish is very much mistaken.

 

[MTS2000des]

Makes no difference whatsoever. If it's an intended electronic interception of an oral communication, it's covered under the various federal and State wiretapping laws.

How so? You're telling me if I run a business I cannot monitor my employee's while on my property? Uhm, okay. I guess Target, Wal-Mart, Kroger, and every retailer in America is in trouble then. Better call the FBI/DOJ. They regularly monitor their employees, record them in public and private areas (including break rooms).

Unless the required permissions are there, whether they're statutory or contractual, these type of things will land you in big trouble.
.

That's the concept you fail to grasp. When you are on someone else' private property, you are subject to their rules, their recording, their observing you. Don't like it? Do not go onto their premises. It is voluntary. One grants their permission when they enter upon to the premises of another. Again, if one doesn't agree, one is free to leave.

In any event, if this is such a minor kerfuffle, why did the Zoo Director hasten to let everyone know the feature's disabled?
.

Don't know, why don't you ask them? Maybe because they want to get the news media out of their face. Maybe because they want those employees to think the feature is disabled.

but anyone who thinks an employer can monitor oral communications at will in any manner they wish is very much mistaken.

On private property it happens all day, everyday. If you think otherwise, you are the one who is mistaken. There is hardly a place you can go where monitoring and recording isn't going on. When you are outside of your own property, you have no reasonable expectation of privacy. Welcome to 2015.

 

[radioman2001]

All of what MTS2000des says runs a fine line of breaking the law. Target, Walmart are private companies and yes can do what they want WITHIN THE LAW. Does it mean they can pry into the bathrooms because someone MIGHT steal by putting objects in their pockets NO. The semantics of recording or listening still have to meet the letter of the law pertaining to electronic survellance. Doesn't matter whether it is on private property or the street, most states do not allow listening or recording of voice or now even video without at least one party who is being surveilled knowing (in some cases needs a warrant). Plus we are talking about public employees who ARE protected, unlike the public who roam around within the public space. That's why you see sign's stating you are being video taped whenever you enter public buildings these days, This meets the letter of the law, but not by using a device you carry as part of your daily activitiies and not being told that it has that capability.
Maybe if the Zoo had notified the union of the fact that employees were being monitored all this hyperboly wouldn't have happened, and the union would have told the employees to turn the radio off when not being used.
Those who think ultra survellance is the cure for societies ills is worse than the government that seeks it.

Personnaly I would have the union take my radio to an independant radio shop and have it read to determine if the feature is disabled, and if not call out the director for lying, and possibly sue to set a precedent. Something California is great for.

 

[MTS2000des]

All of what MTS2000des says runs a fine line of breaking the law.

Everyone on the internet is a lawyer. If these corporations were breaking the law, I am sure they would be prosecuted and would be out of business from paying out lawsuits. Fact is they aren't. Fact is we live in a society where technology allows monitoring and recording just about everywhere. It's not 1977.

Target, Walmart are private companies and yes can do what they want WITHIN THE LAW.

and they do. Having worked retail LP, employees, we were authorized to observe them in break rooms, bathrooms were off limits, but pretty much everywhere employees went a camera was on them. It was perfectly legal. Employees consented to it when they took the job. (We are a right to work state, no union crap either). Don't agree? No job for you.

Employee theft is one of the biggest loss factors businesses face. To suggest that a PRIVATE business cannot utilize cameras and monitoring technology is ludicrous.

The semantics of recording or listening still have to meet the letter of the law pertaining to electronic survellance. Doesn't matter whether it is on private property or the street,

The courts have ruled differently when it comes to public places. You have no reasonable expectation of privacy on a public street or in public places.

Private property: in a one party consent state like mine, if you are on my property, I am a party to the conversation, and I can record and listen all day long. If you don't agree, don't come onto my property. You consent to my rules when you encroach upon my property. I pay the bills here. I make the rules. Don't like it? The door is that way. Help yourself out.

Plus we are talking about public employees who ARE protected, unlike the public who roam around within the public space.

That's a matter of union contract wording. Do you have a copy of their contract law that applies in this case? We don't know what it says. Protected from what exactly?

That's why you see sign's stating you are being video taped whenever you enter public buildings these days, This meets the letter of the law,

Exactly. So what's to say the employees were not notified that, once you accept an offer for employment, the employee is subject to being monitored and recorded while on company time? If that is the case, then there argument they didn't know has no merit. I am pretty sure these employees were told that any employer provided and authorized electronic communications are subject to monitoring and recording. You want to file an OR request for the contract? Go right ahead. I'd be willing to bet you a six pack of your favorite beer that wording is in there.

but not by using a device you carry as part of your daily activitiies and not being told that it has that capability.
.

So you are saying a COMPANY owned device cannot be monitored by the one who is paying for it? I guess this means a company cellphone's GPS tracking should be illegal. Or they should not be allowed to monitor company data use or email.

That is simply ABSURD.

Maybe if the Zoo had notified the union of the fact that employees were being monitored all this hyperboly wouldn't have happened, and the union would have told the employees to turn the radio off when not being used.
.

Maybe if these whiny infant union employees had an IQ over 55 they would know that any modern radio communication device can be monitored by the one who is issuing it. Time for a little reality dose of something called personal accountability.

Those who think ultra survellance is the cure for societies ills is worse than the government that seeks it.

I am the last person who is for a government police state, but we aren't talking about the government using StingRay devices to tap into private citizens personal phone calls, or the NSA monitoring your emails or Internet use.

We are talking about an employer's right to use available technology to ensure their employee's safety, compliance with employer rules and regulations, and to ensure that in the case of publicly paid employees, that waste, fraud and abuse does not occur.

I have no problem with that so long as it is done for those purposes.

No evidence has come forth that the use of this feature has been abused.

Personnaly I would have the union take my radio to an independant radio shop and have it read to determine if the feature is disabled, and if not call out the director for lying, and possibly sue to set a precedent. Something California is great for.

And if the communications system manager is smart, I would have all users sign an NDA and if they attempt unauthorized programming, they would be committing a computer crime and subject to criminal prosecution. See, it works both ways.

 

[rapidcharger]

One might also question whether using the radios for eavesdropping is a violation of §90.405 Permissible communications. Of course, the FCC is not the plaintiff in this case.

 

[radioman2001]

That's some of the reasons why I DON"T live, work, or buy, in or from a right to work state. Business thinks it is the Govenment, and I get the loss factor, but the store still does have to abide by local laws with respect to these kind of intrusions. The only reason this type of nonsense happens is exactly what you state, don't like it don't work here well that might work in today's economy but when things get better these stores can't find help. I used to work for the Big Orange Box and yes they were sued and management were fired and they paid big fines and settlements with employees who rights were violate in respect to illegal survailance on their own property. You think that because you live in a right to work state that it's OK to be treated this way I don't so we agree to disagree. California is not a right to work state so you points are moot. These workers are more than probably protected, even though you don't like it. I am not a big union fan but I have seen both sides as employee and manager. I wouldn't think of ever running survailance without proper permissions, legal oversight and reasonable notifications.
Let me know where you have a business so I can boycott it.

Quote Every email and phone call in this country is recorded. How are people not aware of this yet? You have no expectation of privacy."Quote

Maybe so but why do we allow it, for some obscure reason of National Security? None of these programs ever delivered any usable intelligence. It's more of getting us used to being under this kind of Government
control so eventually everything will be monitored and I suspect at some time in the future a way to generate revenue. Just like speed and red light cameras.

 

[SCPD]

Not responsible? Union policy or not last I checked most places your radio is assigned and signed for to you. During work hours it is a tool and if you loose that tool you have to report it. Now is it your fault if shop gets broken into at night and yours is at shop? No. But take it home and it goes missing guess who pays for it. Seen it hundreds of times and some loose jobs over loosing a radio.

I disagree remote monitoring has been around and is a key feature when a device is stolen. Any job i had i didnt csre about remote monitoring. Taking a leak just turn it off. Break turn it off use cell phone during that period. Now as for suing the manufacturer. Ha good luck doubt you will get far snd lucky if they don't counter sue for paying the attorneys to take time to deal with you. As for management maybe if they abused it or some sissy union has found loops in wording and looking for a slam dunk which in end won't benefit the employee just the union. seems all it is at this point is a rumor leading to a union rep seeing a way to get even On speculation. like said before if evidence shows no laws were broken you bet after there will be wording in policy to utilize the remote feature and you bet they'd use it after this if they can. They kind of stirred a lions den.

It's one thing to remotely monitor when the employee knows about it, such as an audible beep notification or some other means. Using the emergency button would be allowed since the operator initiated it, and that would cover liability in the event of an emergency. Man down sensor would cover the unintended events as is required in all radios in the EU.
To randomly just bring up someones mic to see whats going on is another, it's called bugging or wire tapping. I know NYPD had a specific clause in their contract years ago that prohibited any means of identification (MDC ID) or monitoring of their radios, and I don't know if that still applies in this piss poor post 911 world.
I see the good and bad of this, but the fact that the employees were NOT advised that they were being monitored remotely if it were to occur in New York that is a felony. I suspect most States have similar laws or should. Most unions have contracts that say you have to carry a portable, but it doesn't have to be on, plus you are not responsible for what happens to the radio. Lost stolen damaged etc, and you could place tape over the mic, put the radio in your pocket or just leave it off.
I have an employee that refuses to take his portable since we told him it had GPS in it. It didn't but it does show the mentality of some individuals.
Yes there are those that come to work and get paid but not work. Using remote monitoring radios is not a way to solve this. I suspect that if an incident ever came up that required remediation the company would lose and possibly be held accountable for invasion of privacy by local or even federal law. Bad all around, but especially for the company.
I would love to be the first one to sue not only the company but the radio manufacturer for offering a device to the company that breaks the law. Maybe that can be a way to slow down the forthcoming 1984.

 

[radioman2001]

As far as I am concerned this topic is going to go the route of the encryption ones. Just be prepared to have every little, tiniest, minuite aspect of you life be inspected by the Government in the future. I am fortunate that I probably will not see it.

I remember watching reruns of some 1960's shows and how they depicted the life in Communist Block Countries. I was shocked to realize that they were exactly how the world is here now in a supposed free county. While the story in the depicted country is where personal radio possesion( other than state run radio TV) is illegal here we now basically have the same with wide-spread encryption, and all news and entertainment is either filtered or made to entice you to buy a product.

Quote"I would love to be the first one to sue not only the company but the radio manufacturer for offering a device to the company that breaks the law. Maybe that can be a way to slow down the forthcoming 1984.Quote"
Companies have been sued for less and lost. think Toy Teddy Bears and their plastic eyes.

 

[Triangulum]

As far as I am concerned this topic is going to go the route of the encryption ones. Just be prepared to have every little, tiniest, minuite aspect of you life be inspected by the Government in the future. I am fortunate that I probably will not see it.

Government has already been beaten to the punch by consumer products. An example would be Smart TVs, especially earlier models that tried to keep the setting covert for the average person. Track what you watch (or say) for advertising purposes. Even in the past there have been patents for cameras to identify consumer-related products in the viewing room. Other examples would be: Facebook buying a facial recognition company seems rather self-explanatory. The white elephant in the room of the massive business of buying and selling user/consumer data. The list goes on and on. You put all these things together and you get what you are talking about.

The fact is the infrastructure that you speak of is being built in front of your eyes, right here and now. The infrastructure isn't being built by Government, but all it takes is a little cooperation (or back-door'ing). At least a Government can ultimately be held accountable by the voters. What is going on right now cannot be.

 

[Evgeni]

I used to work at a retailer, and with finding out that the 900mhz Motorola DTRs I used could be monitored, I am not happy.

 

[SCPD]

Why does everyone make it. A big issue? Of the employer doesn't abuse or misuse the feature then what's the big deal? So what's next wal mart employees sue because the public can hear them? I can see it now when they take the cheap murs rdu radios home tp talk to cp worker down couple houses smd house in middle records it all. I think these folks need to stick to fast food and any job with a radio not even apply for. What's funnier is I'm willing to bet half the people love video taping others in public or posting pictures of people in public on walls online. But forbid anyone do the same to them.

 

[NYG]

There is a fine line with any technology that allows monitoring. If I'm setting up security appliances for a company that intercepts/scans/logs SSL traffic, I tell them personal financial and medical should be considered off limits and all employees should be aware that any communication on the corporate network is subject to monitoring.

If Sally is unaware that her mic can be opened remotely on her HT, and she's on her cell phone speaking with her daughters doctor while Joe in the management office is listening to her conversation you can be damn sure that's grounds for a lawsuit.

 

[radioman2001]

Quote"
If Sally is unaware that her mic can be opened remotely on her HT, and she's on her cell phone speaking with her daughters doctor while Joe in the management office is listening to her conversation you can be damn sure that's grounds for a lawsuit. Quote"

+1 on that, finally a use for HIPA.

 

[SCPD]

A common sense would say turn it off and nkt be in a hall ot office with cameras. Then again Nothings common to the simple.