Trunking systems ins and outs

[speedway_navigator]

You might find PoC aka PTT over cellular would fit your friend's needs at a much more economical level. The upside is you only buy user equipment, the downside is you don't have any control over the transport medium.

You can do a single site with what Hytera calls pseudo trunking, basically a single freq DMR repeater with 2 time slots/talk paths. Users are normally assigned a time slot, if group A is talking and group B is on the same slot they can't key up while the channel is busy, even if the other slot is open. Pseudo trunk dynamically lets group B use the other slot. This is a single freq trunking system.

If there are multiple repeaters at a site Hytera has XPT, extended pseudo trunking, which makes each slot in any repeater a resource available to any user so they don't have to change channels to find an open slot. Other radio mfgs have their own names for it, this was a game changer for us at Bearcom when we did large rental events.

 

[surfacemount]

someday I would like to be able to implement one for one of my friend's business. I have never used or worked on one of these things before nor have the equipment yet.

He currently does not run any businesses, but this will be in the future when he starts one. It is currently unknown at this time since it will be 5 to 10 years down the road

I don't think you appreciate what you're asking.
You are asking, how do I build a tractor trailer for a friends business that doesn't even exist yet. From the lugnuts up. And have it be the right thing/size/everything for this business that is going to change 800x before it gets the front doors open.

If you just want to learn trunking, get your wallet out. Go to motorola's Motorola Solutions or EFJ TrainingOLD (among others), and pay for their training.

It took me years, and that was because I loved radios. I still don't know much about the latest revision.

LMR is a dead technology. I wonder if trunking will exist in ten years; it's all going to RoIP or who knows with terrestrial satellite that far out?

You certain this is what you want to do with your life?

 

[Pr999]

I guess I'll just stick with a conventional repeater then. I'm sorry this topic has been done to death. I'm just very curious about the world of automated systems. Trunking seems very cool, I would love to play with it someday if ever, but I probably won't be setting up such an expensive system except for a friend or family with a budget. Luckily there are some sparse, but local trunking systems within my area that I could rent a talkgroup or two from. I only need 3 or 4 radios on our property, so I can't be too expensive, I just didn't want to have to pay for talkgroups on some nearby system, so to solve that I would create my own system.


I know LMR is going out of fashion in favor of WiFi and cellular services which makes listening to those systems more difficult, but I still want to experience using this technology since it's so off the grid.


Thank you all so much for the information you all on this forum could give me, I wouldn't have learned more without this forum since googling about it only takes you so far.

 

[speedway_navigator]

I don't see LMR going away, we heard a similar argument about not needing outside antennas for TV once cable got poplar, now folks have gone to satellite dishes or even OTAR antennas again.

The biggest advantage is owning the infrastructure so users always know they will get access to the repeater at some point, even if there is a 90 second delay like happened in the I34W bridge collapse in Minnesota.

Step 1 should be a user needs survey to determine what coverage you need both by number of users, expected about of traffic and the area.
Once you do that then look at what technology is out there to meet these needs. If the company is expected to grow then the number of uses and maybe area might alter your design.

Most conventional repeaters sold for commercial use can be trunked just by enabling features in the software. Since DMR is 2 slots just having 2 repeaters means 4 conversations can take place at once. I had 4 repeaters at winter X games for almost 600 users, never did fill the 8 talk paths.


Feel free to keep the questions coming, we have a great talent pool here.
Merry Christmas

 

[surfacemount]

I guess I'll just stick with a conventional repeater then. I'm sorry this topic has been done to death. I'm just very curious about the world of automated systems. Trunking seems very cool, I would love to play with it someday if ever, but I probably won't be setting up such an expensive system

I haven't gone and looked, but some older analog capacity PRIVACY plus type trunking controllers and ephemera might be a lower cost way to sandbox a system if that's really what you want to do.

I don't see LMR going away, we heard a similar argument about not needing outside antennas for TV once cable got poplar, now folks have gone to satellite dishes or even OTAR antennas again.

Boy I do.
Have you not really considered the implications of APX N? It's a cellphone that was molded to look like a police radio so that the frog gets boiled more gently. I don't honestly even see much more use of conventional repeaters in the nascent era of DMR. Don't get me wrong, there will always be niche applications; but like racing radios? I see that morphing over to LTE with rebadged picocells / extenders within the next 15 years. (shrugs)

edited for to repair the radtardation

 

[KevinC]

I haven't gone and looked, but some older analog capacity plus type trunking controllers and ephemera might be a lower cost way to sandbox a system if that's really what you want to do.

That's a new one one me. What is analog Capacity+? Did you maybe mean PrivacyPlus?

 

[surfacemount]

That's a new one one me. What is analog Capacity+? Did you maybe mean PrivacyPlus?

dammit.

Yessss

 

[DeoVindice]

Have you not really considered the implications of APX N? It's a cellphone that was molded to look like a police radio so that the frog gets boiled more gently. I don't honestly even see much more use of conventional repeaters in the nascent era of DMR. Don't get me wrong, there will always be niche applications; but like racing radios? I see that morphing over to LTE with rebadged picocells / extenders within the next 15 years. (shrugs)

Relying on a third party's infrastructure that doesn't even work especially well? No thank you. LMR at least has the ability to fall back to simplex if the system is implemented by competent persons.

Where PTToC excels is in replacing DMR trunking systems used by assorted service businesses. LTE is fundamentally unsuited to be the sole means of safety-critical communications. Converged LMR/LTE devices actually make sense, but I expect Android integration will be a dead end due to the service life discrepancy between a portable radio and a smartphone. IIRC the original APX NEXT uses a Qualcomm chip from 2017. APX N30 and N50 are traditional LMR devices with no LTE capability, with no cell phone characteristics beyond a slightly larger screen.

Now I'm curious how many Ion units Motorola has actually sold...

 

[KevinC]

You people do realize any "system" the OP is thinking about is just hypothetical...

He currently does not run any businesses, but this will be in the future when he starts one. It is currently unknown at this time since it will be 5 to 10 years down the road but I would start him off with an LTR system since it seems simpler and a good system for beginners, but I would like to know some licensing ins and outs and other functions for when I actually employ this.

...and may not even happen. The LMR world will change a lot in the next 5 years and even more in 10 years.

 

[speedway_navigator]

Boy I do.

If it does we will lose 2/3 of the forums in this commercial, professional and personal radio catagory.

 

[surfacemount]

Relying on a third party's infrastructure that doesn't even work especially well? No thank you. LMR at least has the ability to fall back to simplex if the system is implemented by competent persons.

Where PTToC excels is in replacing DMR trunking systems used by assorted service businesses. LTE is fundamentally unsuited to be the sole means of safety-critical communications. Converged LMR/LTE devices actually make sense, but I expect Android integration will be a dead end due to the service life discrepancy between a portable radio and a smartphone. IIRC the original APX NEXT uses a Qualcomm chip from 2017. APX N30 and N50 are traditional LMR devices with no LTE capability, with no cell phone characteristics beyond a slightly larger screen.

Now I'm curious how many Ion units Motorola has actually sold...

Hey, I didn't say it was the smart plan. I just said that all of this is based on money, and pushing tower and base radio maintenance off on someone else sounds... cheaper lol. Kinda like how there is dwindling copper plant in favor of wireless. Not smart, but it is what's happening around me until they get off their ass and lay some fiber to the home.

If it does we will lose 2/3 of the forums in this commercial, professional and personal radio catagory.

Nah. I still belong to an elevator operator forum and an MTS operator forum. We're safe

 

[alcahuete]

I guess I'll just stick with a conventional repeater then. I'm sorry this topic has been done to death. I'm just very curious about the world of automated systems. Trunking seems very cool, I would love to play with it someday if ever, but I probably won't be setting up such an expensive system except for a friend or family with a budget. Luckily there are some sparse, but local trunking systems within my area that I could rent a talkgroup or two from. I only need 3 or 4 radios on our property, so I can't be too expensive, I just didn't want to have to pay for talkgroups on some nearby system, so to solve that I would create my own system.

I was going to ask some questions in your closed thread, but fell asleep after eating too much ham.

If you're just looking to put something together on your property for your family and friends to use, you are in WAY over your head with any sort of real trunking system, and it's way overkill for what you want to do. Your best bet would just be a single digital repeater (DMR comes to mind, with the 2 talk paths). That would be more than enough for what it sounds like you're trying to do with 4 radios. Even with that, I don't think you realize how expensive that project is going to be: Repeater, duplexer, good quality coax, antenna, etc. There's nothing cheap about it.

 

[Pr999]

I was going to ask some questions in your closed thread, but fell asleep after eating too much ham.

If you're just looking to put something together on your property for your family and friends to use, you are in WAY over your head with any sort of real trunking system, and it's way overkill for what you want to do. Your best bet would just be a single digital repeater (DMR comes to mind, with the 2 talk paths). That would be more than enough for what it sounds like you're trying to do with 4 radios. Even with that, I don't think you realize how expensive that project is going to be: Repeater, duplexer, good quality coax, antenna, etc. There's nothing cheap about it.

yeah, exactly. I already plan to install a GMRS repeater on my property as well but for public use and net use during severe weather.

 

[mmckenna]

I just didn't want to have to pay for talkgroups on some nearby system, so to solve that I would create my own system.

Didn't we talk about this a few months ago, or was that someone else?

While it would be fun to play with, the cost of setting up your own radio system, even a single channel DMR system, can get very expensive, require a lot of very, very expensive test equipment, and a lot of upkeep.

There's a reason why radio shops run these systems, it's because they can spread the cost of the system over a large customer base. $15/$20 radio per month to access someones system is kind of a good deal when you look at how much it would cost to build your own.

On the other hand, these radio shops will sell you -their- radios with -their- programming and they will be locked down. You won't get to play with the programming or controller. You'll have what is essentially a very expensive walkie talkie that someone else controls.

If you really want your own radio system, and you have the funds, time, knowledge and test equipment to make it work, then a single repeater system (like 2 slot DMR) would be a good choice.

For this sort of learning, you really probably want to get your ham or GMRS license first, learn the basics, and once you have that, think about setting up your own repeater.

 

[surfacemount]

I was rereading to glean more smarts from the people that actually know what's going on...

APX N30 and N50 are traditional LMR devices with no LTE capability, with no cell phone characteristics beyond a slightly larger screen.

It is my speculation that is how they get the camels' nose under the tent. Relatively less expensive subscriber units with a similar UI to get people indoctrinated as to that form factor and UI as the baseline radio.

Make no mistake, I think people who have comms as life safety tools have no business on cell. But it appears to be an increasingly harder and harder sell when you have SOMEONE with a black sim saying that with picocell buildout, we can give you the same footprint, and no DAS buildout in the city and fighting farmer ted to use 50 feet of his easement to get to your tower site in the county... Nobody wants to learn how to shift gears on a radio, but everyone seems to be able to navigate eight layers of an app on a phone. Plus, it is duplex. Plus, cool people and leaders carry a cell, none of them carry a radio.

I was at least able to kind of prophesy about a future with terrestrial solutions. Starlinks green radio side has thrown all that in the toilet. I think that the cell companies will blood oath and do musk like the Company and the mob did kennedy...

 

[MTS2000des]

Make no mistake, I think people who have comms as life safety tools have no business on cell. But it appears to be an increasingly harder and harder sell when you have SOMEONE with a black sim saying that with picocell buildout, we can give you the same footprint, and no DAS buildout in the city and fighting farmer ted to use 50 feet of his easement to get to your tower site in the county... Nobody wants to learn how to shift gears on a radio, but everyone seems to be able to navigate eight layers of an app on a phone. Plus, it is duplex. Plus, cool people and leaders carry a cell, none of them carry a radio.

I was at least able to kind of prophesy about a future with terrestrial solutions. Starlinks green radio side has thrown all that in the toilet. I think that the cell companies will blood oath and do musk like the Company and the mob did kennedy...

BDA's have become a "more harm than good" debacle. Too many are implemented by morons who have zero idea they are putting stuff on the air that pollutes the spectrum, can cause life threatening interference, and do the opposite of the intended goal which is to enhance, not hinder, public safety LMR.

At this point, I'd much rather someone rely on "maybe" wi-fi or LTE than to have every Chuck and a Truck throwing up BDA/DAS that vomit hash and trash out of a donor and into our systems rendering them useless. Just my 2 cents from someone spent 6 months of his life and didn't sleep tracking down one of these RF fart machines that nearly crippled out system.

 

[surfacemount]

Cash grab. Was made mandatory, then all the wish products started showing up. Also, all the 600ish MHz wireless products still floating around. Got in an argument with a plant manager that didn't give a **** about all the body packs... until the police showed up. LOL

 

[12dbsinad]

BDA's have become a "more harm than good" debacle. Too many are implemented by morons who have zero idea they are putting stuff on the air that pollutes the spectrum, can cause life threatening interference, and do the opposite of the intended goal which is to enhance, not hinder, public safety LMR.

At this point, I'd much rather someone rely on "maybe" wi-fi or LTE than to have every Chuck and a Truck throwing up BDA/DAS that vomit hash and trash out of a donor and into our systems rendering them useless. Just my 2 cents from someone spent 6 months of his life and didn't sleep tracking down one of these RF fart machines that nearly crippled out system.

100 percent dead nuts the truth right here!

 

[speedway_navigator]

Just my 2 cents from someone spent 6 months of his life and didn't sleep tracking down one of these RF fart machines that nearly crippled out system.

Have you had problems with a professionally installed DAS getting into your site? A guy I was on an APCP SME committee with said the LA Orange county area was seeing that.

 

[MTS2000des]

Have you had problems with a professionally installed DAS getting into your site? A guy I was on an APCP SME committee with said the LA Orange county area was seeing that.

Yep. Several. We must have run into the same person. Had a long convo with him at APCO if it is who I am thinking of. This madness needs to stop before someone gets killed.