Wayne TRS help

[ka2aradio]

I can receive it on my 396t but modulation is garbled about 90%. Same on my 996t. At first I thought they might be using some type of voice inversion. But think about it. Why is the SID number changed unless the system changed. I have played around with system options to no avail.

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[Trunk240]

I messed with the P25 Adjust Mode settings yesterday between 3 and 11. I think the higher numbers were better, but it's still pretty bad.

I upgraded to the 1.11.01 firmware to see if that has any effect.

 

[rpurchases10]

A P25 system on a newer Uniden will not allow any setting other than NFM on the system frequencies. This only works on Moto Type-II systems with ASTRO voice.

What about the existing 25khz spaced (FM) "T-Band" systems? As soon as Obama.gov administration threw in the spectrum "giveback" language in one of the early "stimulus" bills, the FCC eliminated the requirement to "narrowband" those freq's as they were going to be gone soon....

I know of about 5 systems (conventional analog / conventional p25 / trs p25) that never made the narrowband programming changes to existing gear. Tx and Rx on these in a newer (aka apx) radio w/o the "wideband EID" and the audio is significantly lower.

I'm just about to upgrade from the 996xt to the 536hp and wonder if it's affected by this.??

Thx!

 

[902]

As soon as Obama.gov administration threw in the spectrum "giveback" language in one of the early "stimulus" bills, the FCC eliminated the requirement to "narrowband" those freq's as they were going to be gone soon....

Your history is off. The current administration had nothing to do with the giveback legislation except sign it into law. The architect of the "giveback" was Representative Peter King, who directed the House Energy and Commerce Committee, Subcommittee on Communications and Technology spectrum policy staffers to include it in the final draft as-is. It flew in under the radar in an omnibus bill which was ostensibly for "Middle Class Tax Relief," but had substantial other stuff in it (read Title VI). The prior drafts of that bill are all public record. You can see where the first version that made it out of the back room required a give-back of 420 - 440 and 450 - 470 as 20 MHz of paired spectrum for wireless broadband. The one that didn't make it out of the back room at Energy and Commerce was a complete giveback of ALL spectrum below 512 MHz, essentially making the only place for "mission critical" voice traffic 700/800 and subscriber over cellular (radio emulation evolving into Voice over LTE).

The administration DID have people who set the stage for broadband in the FCC, like Dr. Jon Peha from Carnegie Mellon, and several other people from the "wireless" industry, but did not do that.

Here's some more background, including citations - click on the arrow by the 902.

Don't get me wrong, this post isn't defending any politician or bashing any other. Nor do I want to take the wind out of your sails. Losing T-Band is a big deal to NJ (my home state) and I just want to make sure the history behind it is not rewritten.

Also, as soon as the FCC froze T-Band licensing (which has somewhat lifted, you can modify licenses now if you stay within the currently licensed footprint) they eliminated the narrowbanding requirement for it. Unfortunately a number of proactive communities went through the effort to redesign their system and spend to put it all into action when the ones who held off didn't have to follow through.

 

[n2kkz]

So has there been a consensus as to what has changed with Wayne TRS?

 

[W2SJW]

If the system is a 'true' P25 (9600 baud) the subscriber radios have no other option than to run in narrow mode (I owned an APX for a number of years & got quite intimate with all the nooks & crannies of the CPS!).

A system like Edison Twp, Bucks County, and a few others that are Type-II & use almost all digital voice are where you can tailor the scanner to get the most out of the audio. There is one trick that usually can be followed:

Almost all of Edison's frequencies are 3-digit after the decimal - usually a sign of a system that was NFM from the start (which it is). Same with Burlington County's 500 system (they both have 12.5k spacing).

Bucks County, PA has all of it's frequencies as 4-digit after the decimal (25k spacing), and are best left as 'FM' in the scanner.

If it's an 800 system, it's a crap-shoot at this point. You would have to read the system in to UniTrunker (or similar) to see what kind of info the system is using (most 800 mix-mode I've found are 'FM').

 

[902]

If the system is a 'true' P25 (9600 baud) the subscriber radios have no other option than to run in narrow mode (I owned an APX for a number of years & got quite intimate with all the nooks & crannies of the CPS!).

A system like Edison Twp, Bucks County, and a few others that are Type-II & use almost all digital voice are where you can tailor the scanner to get the most out of the audio. There is one trick that usually can be followed:

Almost all of Edison's frequencies are 3-digit after the decimal - usually a sign of a system that was NFM from the start (which it is). Same with Burlington County's 500 system (they both have 12.5k spacing).

Bucks County, PA has all of it's frequencies as 4-digit after the decimal (25k spacing), and are best left as 'FM' in the scanner.

If it's an 800 system, it's a crap-shoot at this point. You would have to read the system in to UniTrunker (or similar) to see what kind of info the system is using (most 800 mix-mode I've found are 'FM').

Pure P25 doesn't make a provision for "Wide Pulse Astro." The waveform is the same, but the deviation conforms to within a 20K0 channelspace. My experience with XTS and Astro Spectras has been that WPA will make the receiver pop out in high signal level areas if the subscribers are set to C4FM and the system was configured for WPA. We spent a considerable amount of time troubleshooting why deputy cars could not receive within a mile of a simulcast site. Ironically, other radios with looser filtering could demodulate the signal, and radios with very tight compliance to P25 could not.

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe a 9.6 kbps control channel locks out WPA as a choice for overcoming simulcast delays. The signal might be CQPSK or LSM, which is compatible with P25 but achieves a looser window for simulcast. You can tell to some extent by scoping the waveform and looking at the periods between the cross-overs. If they're wider, (WPA deals with wide deviation, not timing), then they're probably one of the other techniques.

You're right on with the 3 digit frequencies. The "interstitial" coordinations had to be implemented in 11K2 (or less) because of incursion into the adjacent channel. The selection of that frequency had to meet both a geographic separation requirement from its closest co-channel, as well as not bleed over into adjacent wideband operations (who may or may not have narrowbanded depending on if they held out or chose to comply early), so the deviation on those should be less. If the system has both frequencies in its list, they all should be on the lower deviation emission (but no guarantees), otherwise some channels would have different characteristics from others.

 

[shield5535]

Good Morning same issues here and not getting anything at all. Using WIN 500 I deleted the system and imported it again from RR for PSR600 which did not work as well. I did notice that the trunking tables for Hi Channel, Offset, Base Frequency, and Step were not populated after the import. Could this be an issue with the RR database for the Wayne system?

 

[Trunk240]

I don't believe it's an issue with the RR database. My 396XT is picking up the control channel as 471.28750, which is what the database says. In fact, that's the only frequency I have programmed in, and I've heard communications on all of the talkgroups over the past week.

The FCC site shows an "effective date" of February 28, 2015 for the system. However, it looks like the changes were purely administrative: changing the licensee (from one Lieutenant to another) and contact information (from APCO's Spectrum Licensing Division to the superseding Lieutenant).

It's clear that something changed since we're all having trouble. Does a change in SID tell us anything at all?

Where are you in NJ?

 

[n2kkz]

Trunk240, if you are receiving the TG's on your 396 can you tell me how you have it programmed? I'm not getting any intelligible audio on my 396.

 

[Trunk240]

Sure. Standard P25, one site with 471.28750 as the only frequency. I am running 1.11.01 firmware now, but I don't think it had any effect.

 

[Markscan]

I just loaded Wayne into my HomePatrol2 straight from the database. I am in western Essex county and am getting full signal. I will listen and report my findings, for what it's worth. I get them loud and clear on a 436 in Fairfield so I don't know what's going on.


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[Pursuit]

I noticed significant improvement on this system by doing 1 simple thing. For everyone having issues what is your squelch set to? i had mine at about 10 and it was garbled and cutting out, the signal for the control channel was dropping constantly. After putting the squelch at 0 the system comes in 100 times better. Soon as i turn it up back towards 10 the control channel starts dropping audio is garbled put it back on 0 control channel holds and breaking up is a minimum. If you wanna take it a step further put the site hold time on the max of 255. I know that is not an ideal setting for most of you if you scan other systems but give it a try and test it out. The squelch being lowered seems to make a HUGE difference. Squelch on 1 and 2 also seems to work okay but anything after that it starts breaking up.

 

[n2kkz]

My 396 (not XT) allows me to enter the frequencies as FM (not NFM). Now the trunking is working fine.

Does anyone know how to overcome that issue for my 396xt?

 

[Markscan]

Had my Homepatrol 2 running Wayne for the last 3 hours and everything seems normal. Loud and clear. Squelch set at 2 .


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[n2kkz]

I reconfigured my 396 & 396xt from NFM to FM. Everything is working again. (Don't know what was changed on their end, but all is well now). Cheers. -.-

 

[Trunk240]

I listened last night for a couple hours, alternating between FM and NFM using the Fn + 9 (Mod) key combination. I'm not sure I can tell the difference. What is really bothering me is that some transmissions have error rates as low as 1 or 2 and others bounce between 30 and 70. I've been monitoring with Pro96Com to see if any particular frequency is problematic and I don't see any correlation.

Does simulcast distortion fluctuate between full, clear transmissions and unintelligible ones? I've never experienced it before, and I've been primarily listening to Wayne in Wayne for the last several years.

Also, FWIW, Pro96Com is saying that the Site is 015 now, not 010 like the RR database says.

 

[665_NJ]

I listened last night for a couple hours, alternating between FM and NFM using the Fn + 9 (Mod) key combination. I'm not sure I can tell the difference. What is really bothering me is that some transmissions have error rates as low as 1 or 2 and others bounce between 30 and 70. I've been monitoring with Pro96Com to see if any particular frequency is problematic and I don't see any correlation.

Does simulcast distortion fluctuate between full, clear transmissions and unintelligible ones? I've never experienced it before, and I've been primarily listening to Wayne in Wayne for the last several years.

Also, FWIW, Pro96Com is saying that the Site is 015 now, not 010 like the RR database says.

The site number was corrected in the DB yesterday from 10 to 15. Max

 

[shield5535]

Okay and not sure what to make of this as still having issues. As suggested I loaded just the control channel of which I should be getting a decent signal as PSR600 and RS 106 are showing 3-4 bars as well as 92-94%. The issue appears to be that the site, system id, ect fields are blank.

I deleted and reloaded several times just using the control channel as well as the both the control and alternate channels with the same results.

So at this point not sure if it is me, WIN500, RR, or scanner issue.

Trunk240 I am in Bergen Co (Midland Park area) and work in Paterson. Thanks to all for reading and any advise/suggestions would be great

 

[ka2aradio]

Yesterday I took a ride with my 396t through Wayne. Surprisingly the scanner was picking up the system fine. Signal was good through the Pompton Lakes area also. However when returning to my home area in Bloomingdale the system trouble returned. I believe that the RF output may have been lowered making monitoring marginal in some of the fringe areas. Has anyone experienced this same issue?

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