Where to get help mapping Motorola programming fields to CHIRP?

[plarkinjr]

Hi folks,

I'm an almost complete newbie to radios (I remember being amazed as a kid in the 70's by WWV and the "number" stations on Dad's old SW rig, and I tagged along with Grandad when he did S&R drills by CB VUE meter with his buds).

So, I'm the IT/tech guy at my local volunteer fire department and was handed a Baofeng radio and asked to "make it work". (We want our "support services" folks to be able to communicate on the fireground amongst themselves, and have the ability to talk to County and other mutual aid departments should the need arise -- mostly simplex, but a little duplex repeater stuff too) I've discovered CHIRP and messed around with it and can scan some channels... and with all this research I think I'm "catching the bug" -- considering getting an Amateur license, looking into SDR, etc.

Anyway, I was more recently given a printout of the channel list table (80 channels) from the department's Motorola gear. I think I've got the basics, but I'm getting hung up trying to translate all the fields for PL and DPL (TX and RX) to CHIRP's Tone Mode, ToneSql, DTCS Polarity, etc etc etc. And then there's the "Personality" and "Channel Announcment" stuff on the Motorola list (mostly all the same) that I am not sure what to do with.

Is this the place to ask these? Should I be using a different forum?

Many thanks,

 

[K4EET]

<snip> So, I'm the IT/tech guy at my local volunteer fire department and was handed a Baofeng radio and asked to "make it work". <snip>

I see where you joined Radio Reference years ago but this is your first post. Just wanted to first say: Welcome to Radio Reference! (belated).

QUESTION: As for the Baofeng radio, what model number is it? I kind of doubt if it is FCC approved to use in your Public Safety radio service under the Federal Communications Commission's (FCC's) Rules and Regulations.

As for being in the correct sub-forum, a moderator will move this thread if needed.

Before going any further, I'll await your reply to my question.

Cheers! Dave

 

[K4EET]

H<snip> ... and with all this research I think I'm "catching the bug" -- considering getting an Amateur license, looking into SDR, etc. <snip>

That's great to hear of your interest! You might want to post in the following forum to learn more about the Amateur Radio hobby:

https://forums.radioreference.com/getting-your-license-new-operators/

Cheers! Dave

 

[tdeater]

From your motorola list, you are looking for this info:

Alias, or channel name
TX Frequency
TX Tone System (PL or DCS)
TX Tone or DCS
RX Frequency
RX Tone System (PL or DCS)
RX Tone or DCS

There will be some translations from the commercial world to the ham terminology world. Hopefully I can translate:

In Chirp:
*Frequency will be the RX or Receive frequency


*Name will be what it shows on the radio's screen

*Tone Mode: Tone will just transmit a PL Code, TSQL will transmit a PL code and require one for receive, DTCS is the DCS 3 digit code (if it is used), Cross lets you specify a different PL code for RX and TX.

*Offset is where you set the TX frequency, if it is a repeater. If you take the TX frequency and subtract it from the RX frequency on your Motorola list, that will give you the offset. You then set which way that offset goes with the duplex field. (- if the TX frequency is below the RX frequency, + if it is above) There is also a split option which allows that to be typed in, but the radio has to support that for it to work.

*Tone, ToneSQL, DTCS Code, DTCS RX Code is where you set whatever PL/DCS code is being used from above.

*DTCS POL is the DCS Polarity, from my experience leave it at NN for DCS coded channels.

I hope that helps, once you figure one out, it is pretty straight forward. Others have chimed in about making sure the radio is actually certified for this use by the FCC.

If they printout they gave you comes from the Motorola software, most likely it will have something specified for every field. You have to look for other clues like what type of tone is set to decide if you need to pay attention to the PL or DCS fields, unless it is CSQ, then there is no tone.

Clear as mud?

 

[djpaulino]

You're kidding right? A Baofeng radio being used in the fire service? I wouldn't program it. I wouldn't want the liability.

 

[cmdrwill]

QUESTION: As for the Baofeng radio, what model number is it? I kind of doubt if it is FCC approved to use in your Public Safety radio service under the Federal Communications Commission's (FCC's) Rules and Regulations. /QUOTE]

Excellent point Dave, most all Baofeng radios do NOT have a valid Part 90 Type Certification.

 

[davidzimmerman]

i would like to see his list of frequencys hes trying to program

 

[plarkinjr]

Hi K4EET,
It's a UV-5R, but is that really relevant to mapping motorola software data fields to the "CHIRP" software.

As for FCC, you may be right, but this is a very small all-volunteer department with tiny budget, and this is just a proof-of-concept exercise at this time.

Our Moto HTs need to be replaced, but for the cost of one Moto we could buy TWO HUNDRED UV-5Rs, or 18 months of fuel for our trucks and engines. Its difficult to justify it for EVERY member of the department; those who really need a fire-service rated HT will have one.

Also, it is my understanding that most of the FCC regs can be bent in the case of genuine major emergency events, and massive tornadoes are not uncommon here, bringing in a dozen different fire services. The intended users of these UV-5Rs would not use them to transmit in violation of FCC regs; primarily listen and have an ability to reach out if need arises.

Hope this helps. Thanks for the welcome!

 

[plarkinjr]

tdeater,

Thanks for the info. I'm still digesting it, but I think your info on ToneMode and ToneSQL will help me sort it out. And indeed moto has every field (including some I don't think mean anything in CHIRP). I think I'm also getting hung up with importing a CSV into CHIRP, like for example it requires a PL code, so in the case of CSQ I have to put 88.5.

 

[plarkinjr]

You're kidding right? A Baofeng radio being used in the fire service? I wouldn't program it. I wouldn't want the liability.

Hopefully my reply to K4EET helps explain what we're doing here. But to be clear, Firefighters will not be entering a hot zone with Baofengs. As I said in my original post, this is intended for support services: folks doing paperwork, shagging gatorade, swapping SCBA bottles, etc. ...unless the SHTF.

i would like to see his list of frequencys hes trying to program

Yeah, I bet. Truth is, most of these FCC licensed radio stations are also very small volunteer agencies limited to 40km or 20km ranges, so unless you're near, you won't hear. A good number are publicly available here on RadioReference.com, and some I simply am not authorized to share. Hope you understand.

 

[mmckenna]

Our Moto HTs need to be replaced, but for the cost of one Moto we could buy TWO HUNDRED UV-5Rs, or 18 months of fuel for our trucks and engines. Its difficult to justify it for EVERY member of the department; those who really need a fire-service rated HT will have one.

If you are paying that much for a Motorola that can be duplicated in function by an $18.00 Chinese radio, then your Motorola dealer is taking your department to the cleaners.

There are plenty of suitable -legal- radios that will fit the role (even in active fire fighting) that can be had much cheaper.

Also, it is my understanding that most of the FCC regs can be bent in the case of genuine major emergency events, and massive tornadoes are not uncommon here, bringing in a dozen different fire services.

To put it simply, your understanding is incorrect. There is no waiver for volunteer fire departments, major emergencies, low budget, didn't know, thought it was OK, some guy on the internet told you, we won't get caught, etc. The FCC rules are there for a reason. If you do not understand radios, how they work, how to program them, and how they can interfere with each other, you should not be assuming that you understand the FCC rules. Violating those rules puts the agencies license at risk. Fines can range into the thousands of dollars very easily.

I understand you are new to radio, but please, take some advice from those of us that have been in the radio industry for a long time, follow the FCC rules. It's not hard to do.

 

[Citywide173]

I would take a close look at this thread: https://forums.radioreference.com/b...rs/374635-fcc-finally-goes-after-baofeng.html

Just because you can make them work on your frequency, it doesn't mean that it isn't throwing harmful spurs onto other frequencies. Do you have a spectrum analyzer to guarantee that isn't the case? If not, you, as the department rep that programmed the radio may be liable.

 

[plarkinjr]

I
...
There are plenty of suitable -legal- radios that will fit the role (even in active fire fighting) that can be had much cheaper.
...

We're totally receptive to such details. Please share. Thanks!

 

[nd5y]

If you looked at the Chirp web site you would have found https://chirp.danplanet.com/projects/chirp/wiki/MemoryEditorColumns. If none of that makes sense then you should not be programming public safety radios.



Please post the area that your department serves so that people who value their safety can avoid traveling there.

 

[davidzimmerman]

Yeah, I bet. Truth is, most of these FCC licensed radio stations are also very small volunteer agencies limited to 40km or 20km ranges, so unless you're near, you won't hear. A good number are publicly available here on RadioReference.com, and some I simply am not authorized to share. Hope you understand

well its sad you feel NO need to share the frequency's or a list of what your trying to program. plarkinjr like nd5y said If none of that makes sense then you should not be programming public safety radios.

 

[ResQguy]

We're totally receptive to such details. Please share. Thanks!

Also, since you implied this is a decision based primarily on cost savings: www.firegrantshelp.com

 

[plarkinjr]

If you looked at the Chirp web site you would have found https://chirp.danplanet.com/projects/chirp/wiki/MemoryEditorColumns. If none of that makes sense then you should not be programming public safety radios.



Please post the area that your department serves so that people who value their safety can avoid traveling there.

Yes, I have been over that page, understand most of it, but parts of it are obtuse or ambigious. For example, it says
"Tone: A single CTCSS tone is transmitted, receive squelch is open or carrier-triggered. The tone used is that which is set in the Tone column.
TSQL: A single CTCSS tone is transmitted, receive squelch is tone-coded to the same tone. The tone used is that which is set in the ToneSql column."

The list from Moto has columns for "TX PL FREQ" and "RX PL FREQ" which is quite clear. "TSQL", "Tone" and "ToneSQL" not so much. Maybe I'm over analyzing, but if TSQL presents the same tone both ways, why does it need a different column from Tone? Has me wondering if I'm missing some implied detail. Thanks to 'tdeater' who wrote it in a more understandable way.

And geez, seems there's a fair bit of rudeness here (along with some kindness). I came here looking for help in understanding CHIRPs nuances, and it turns out I unwittingly stepped into an anti-china trap.

For example, in this thread:
http://forums.radioreference.com/in...letter-fcc-about-ccr-problem.html#post2886217
I see we should avoid "Any professional dual band portable radio that costs less than $4000.00 new." which creates a delima for us. And yet elsewhere in that thread, there is a list of "acceptable" brands, some of which also appear on the supported radios list for CHIRP (e.g. Kenwood, Icom)

Your closing comment, while intended to be clever, demonstrates you know nothing about the reality our community faces. So, if you came here at all would be shocking to you and to us. We are trying to improve our capability, but elitism (and being locked into a single provider with proprietary programming or authorized rep only support) is counterproductive to that.

Do we need to close this thread?

 

[davidzimmerman]

Yes, I have been over that page, understand most of it, but parts of it are obtuse or ambigious. For example, it says
"Tone: A single CTCSS tone is transmitted, receive squelch is open or carrier-triggered. The tone used is that which is set in the Tone column.
TSQL: A single CTCSS tone is transmitted, receive squelch is tone-coded to the same tone. The tone used is that which is set in the ToneSql column."

The list from Moto has columns for "TX PL FREQ" and "RX PL FREQ" which is quite clear. "TSQL", "Tone" and "ToneSQL" not so much. Maybe I'm over analyzing, but if TSQL presents the same tone both ways, why does it need a different column from Tone? Has me wondering if I'm missing some implied detail. Thanks to 'tdeater' who wrote it in a more understandable way.

And geez, seems there's a fair bit of rudeness here (along with some kindness). I came here looking for help in understanding CHIRPs nuances, and it turns out I unwittingly stepped into an anti-china trap.

For example, in this thread:
http://forums.radioreference.com/in...letter-fcc-about-ccr-problem.html#post2886217
I see we should avoid "Any professional dual band portable radio that costs less than $4000.00 new." which creates a delima for us. And yet elsewhere in that thread, there is a list of "acceptable" brands, some of which also appear on the supported radios list for CHIRP (e.g. Kenwood, Icom)

Your closing comment, while intended to be clever, demonstrates you know nothing about the reality our community faces. So, if you came here at all would be shocking to you and to us. We are trying to improve our capability, but elitism (and being locked into a single provider with proprietary programming or authorized rep only support) is counterproductive to that.

Do we need to close this thread?

my professional opinion you're over your head in this can't you ask the local radio shop for help to make sure your doing the radio RIGHT? being your NOT willing to share the frequencys

 

[davidzimmerman]

maybe you can post your department name? the County your in? then we can look and see what your trying to program in the radio? also you said (((I simply am not authorized to share the frequency's))) funny

 

[AI7PM]

...............
Also, it is my understanding that most of the FCC regs can be bent in the case of genuine major emergency events, ......

An inaccurate understanding a lot of people have, and even with FCC clarification, won't go away. All radio functions in a fire-ground/incident need to be coordinated through a COML/COMT to insure the various systems don't interfere with one another. In the scenario of use you describe, the Baeofeng front ends will probably be overloaded every time someone around transmits on an adjacent freq. If one of the Baeofengs should cause harmful interference, it's going to lead back to you as the responsible party. $$$

The cost of quality, serviceable, certificated equipment on approved freqs will seem insignificant after the fines and lawyers fees are paid.

Does your county or a nearby city EMA have a grant writer than could help you? Even used public safety grade radios are a better option than the Baeofeng route. I understand your finance issues, but you are headed in a dangerous direction with philosophies such as I quoted above, and the shortcut view of things.