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Multi-State Communications Networks - The purpose of this forum is for discussion of trunked or conventional communications networks that span more than one state. They are local government or commercial in nature. For Federal or Military use the appropriate Topic Specific forum.

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Old 05-08-2017, 9:27 AM
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Default Industrial Electronics (Conway) NXDN Trunked

Since there is no post in the multi-state forum regarding this particular trunked system, I figure I would add one. Thus far, as far as we know at this time, this NXDN trunked system covers NEPA and into NY and NJ.

RRDB Link

I do have concerns about how this system is depicted in the RRDB as of this writing. It looks like somebody has added every frequency off of each site license, for every site, even though it's rarely the case where every frequency for a site is actively used. Having all of the licensed frequencies listed when they may not be active on the site can slow down scanning. It also looks like somebody has manually calculated the LCNs (channel numbers) for these frequencies, and I can't personally say it's accurate. Hopefully the channel numbers are correct, but if they are not you will have difficulty scanning the sites. I'm not sure who sleuthed out the original sites listed in the DB as of now, but whomever did made very few or no submissions to the actual database to document that information, unfortunately. All major modifications to the system in the RRDB really should be documented with an appropriate submission indicating where the data came from and how ti was obtained.

Industrial Electronics has a website: Industrial Electronics Two Way Mobile Portable GPS Radios | Scranton. On this site, specifically at the bottom of this page you can get an indication of the coverage area [5/8/2017 or before]. I have included a screenshot of that page in case it disappears at some point.

I have made a google map of Robert Conway / Industrial Communications site licenses / locations as well as a spreadsheet with site licenses / frequencies. Given that these are documents that I have created and maintain [or not], the information shown is what I believe to be accurate thus far. I don't have the same level of confidence [yet] of the site numbers as listed in the DB since I am not privy to the submission details and nobody has really publicly spoken much about their findings.

Google Map
Google Spreadsheet

According to the IE Two-Way website, they use some different names for some of the locations, and I am not 100% sure about some of the locations. Their site lists the following locations [as of what I see on 5-8-2017]:
  • Scranton
  • Mountaintop
  • Carbondale
  • Blakeslee
  • Stroudsburg
  • Blooming Grove (Peck's Pond license)
  • Bloomsburg (Catawissa license)
  • Tunkhannock
  • Union Dale
  • Newfoundland
  • Towanda (Monroeton license)
  • Tannersville
  • Hazleton
  • Dunmore
  • Preston Park
  • Williamsport
  • Sunbury (likely either Trevorton or Chulsky license)
  • Montrose
  • Orangeville
  • Canton
  • Mansfield (likely Jackson Summit, Troy PA or Antrim PA license)
  • Allentown (Salisbury Twp license)
  • Avis
  • Milford (likely Matamoras or Branchville license)
  • Susquehanna (Great Bend license)
  • Binghamton NY (Owego NY license)
  • Windsor NY
  • Horseheads NY

If you are somebody who has the ability to search out NXDN signals using DSDPlus, I'd ask that you check on any potential online sites in your area and report your findings in this thread [and submit to the RRDB so that the admins can update the DB when necessary].

Site Neighbors are a very useful thing to know in many cases, and if you are using DSDPlus to monitor one of the site control channels you can get the site neighbor information. DSDPlus will also display the actual channel numbers in use on the site [as they become active while you are monitoring]. That is also useful information. For the most part (unless the system becomes bigger than 63/64 sites), it is likely that all frequencies active for a particular site will have the same RAN.

I'm asking those in the NEPA and bordering NY/NJ area who have DSDPLus to help us out in gathering accurate information about the various sites in this system.

Thanks!

Mike
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Old 05-08-2017, 9:55 AM
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I listen to Allentown (WNCA488) and Stroudsburg (WNUF588) every day. Although I have been using my TRX-1/TRX-2, I could set my notebook up to run each site on DSD+. I used DSD+ originally on this system back in December/January and I'll post my logs from the Allentown site as they may help you.

I attached a TRX-1 log. It might help.
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File Type: zip 4-29-17 Conway Log.zip (15.6 KB, 16 views)
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Old 05-08-2017, 10:22 AM
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Hello,

It is too bad that I am too far away. Good work on scoping this out.

The Channel Map is likely accurate as it is using a known UHF NXDN Mapping.
https://forums.radioreference.com/vo...-trunking.html

The site numbers look reasonable as well.

73 Eric
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Old 05-08-2017, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricCottrell View Post
Hello,

It is too bad that I am too far away. Good work on scoping this out.

The Channel Map is likely accurate as it is using a known UHF NXDN Mapping.
https://forums.radioreference.com/vo...-trunking.html

The site numbers look reasonable as well.

73 Eric
I had seen your post before about known UHF NXDN mapping. However, my experience [here in Ohio on a wide area system close to me, and not necessarily related to the Industrial Electronics system or any other system in the DB] is that a UHF system we have over here does not use standard UHF mapping. Each site indicates what channel numbers are in use, and from direct monitoring we've figured out what those channels map to [with regard to frequencies], and it's totally unlike what you described in your post.

Given that, and knowing that somebody just added all of the frequencies from the license for each site on the IE system, I have to question whether the channel numbers are accurate since I can't monitor any of those sites direct myself. If somebody simply added all freqs off a site license without confirming them to be active, I just don't have the personal confidence in the channel numbers either. They certainly may be correct, but I'm one of those guys that doesn't necessarily goes by what the DB says and prefer to know for fact by personal monitoring. Unfortunately, it's probably once every two years that a time comes along where I am able to pick up any of those sites via enhanced tropo to confirm.

I agree that site numbers look reasonable, but there is no indication of RANs in the submissions, and only two or three posts [scattered randomly on RR] related to this system in general. Some sites in the DB listed the actual RAN in the site database entry, and some just list *any. It's lacking proper backend DB documentation. Hopefully whomever manages this system in the future will properly document changes/additions by at least making submissions to the DB and working them. That way any other admin working on it can reference that documentation.

Mike
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Old 05-08-2017, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sibbley View Post
I listen to Allentown (WNCA488) and Stroudsburg (WNUF588) every day. Although I have been using my TRX-1/TRX-2, I could set my notebook up to run each site on DSD+. I used DSD+ originally on this system back in December/January and I'll post my logs from the Allentown site as they may help you.

I attached a TRX-1 log. It might help.
Thank you. Very useful. I also note, based upon your logs, that some frequencies you have for some sites are not listed in the DB for those sites. You should submit those sites / frequencies to the DB along with associated callsigns so that an admin can (a) add that callsign to the site license and (b) add those [verified active] frequencies to the site.

Examples [from your logs]:

12 462.1125 WNJL641
12 463.225 WNJL641
12 464.8875 WNJL641

23 464.1875 WNUF588
23 464.95 WNUF588

If you submit those, they can be added to the sites as confirmed active frequencies for those sites.

Really, I appreciate your logs. Thanks!

Mike
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Old 05-08-2017, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sibbley View Post
I could set my notebook up to run each site on DSD+. I used DSD+ originally on this system back in December/January.
I don't want to trouble you to do this needlessly. However, if at some point you have the time and notion, I'd appreciate it if you would run DSDPlus on any IE NXDN site control channel that you are able to pick up and note (a) RAN, (b) site neighbors [if listed], (c) any channel numbers that happen to pop up when there is site activity.

Basically, if you are running DSDPlus and happen to pick up _any_ NXDN control channel that says it is part of L264, then let us know any information you are able to garner from that control channel.

Obviously, submitting that data is good. but it would be useful to post it too [for guys like me, who aren't privy to seeing what's submitted in the backend since I'm not an admin for PA].

Thanks!

Mike
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Old 05-08-2017, 11:14 AM
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PS: I should add that in my Google spreadsheet I _only_ list trunked licenses. It is conceivable that frequencies off of nontrunked licenses _could_ be in use on this system. I see that a lot with LTR / DMR / NXDN systems where the operators pick frequencies off of licenses that do not necessarily have the correct information on them. And, I don't know if Industrial Electronics / Robert Conway have any paging spectrum. If they do, then conceivably there could be 454 mhz frequencies in use.

Fortunately for you guys who monitor this system, there isn't yet any sign of 454 mhz frequencies being used on this system and the operator seems to use frequencies right off of a bonafide trunked license.

Mike
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Old 05-08-2017, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricCottrell View Post
Hello,

It is too bad that I am too far away. Good work on scoping this out.

The Channel Map is likely accurate as it is using a known UHF NXDN Mapping.
https://forums.radioreference.com/vo...-trunking.html

The site numbers look reasonable as well.

73 Eric
Thanks for that, Eric. Indeed this system looks to be using one of the standard maps. Very nice, and useful. So glad it's not using custom garbage [like the ones I'm used to dealing with in my neck of the woods].

Mike
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Old 05-08-2017, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtindor View Post
Thank you. Very useful. I also note, based upon your logs, that some frequencies you have for some sites are not listed in the DB for those sites. You should submit those sites / frequencies to the DB along with associated callsigns so that an admin can (a) add that callsign to the site license and (b) add those [verified active] frequencies to the site.

Examples [from your logs]:

12 462.1125 WNJL641
12 463.225 WNJL641
12 464.8875 WNJL641

23 464.1875 WNUF588
23 464.95 WNUF588

If you submit those, they can be added to the sites as confirmed active frequencies for those sites.

Really, I appreciate your logs. Thanks!

Mike
From your google map, and the frequencies you mention above, it seems I should run DSD+ on the WNUF588 site. I've only ever run it on the Allentown site. I didn't realize I would be able to hear anything on the other sites till the TRX series was working well on NXDN. I'll get it set up tomorrow or Wednesday and leave it run for several days to grab channel numbers and neighbors. Then switch to WNJL641 and see what happens.

Besides, if I run DSD+ I might get some aliases for the UID's I've been logging.

BTW, these are the frequencies I'm running from the FCC database for WNUF588

461.075
461.5875
461.9125
462.125
463.2
463.275
463.4
463.65
463.8
463.85
464.05
464.1875
464.95
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Old 05-08-2017, 1:03 PM
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Just as FYI. This system seems to come alive more and more each day. I have another 4 wildcard TGID hits today on the Allentown site. I just wish I knew who they were!
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Old 05-08-2017, 1:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sibbley View Post
From your google map, and the frequencies you mention above, it seems I should run DSD+ on the WNUF588 site. I've only ever run it on the Allentown site. I didn't realize I would be able to hear anything on the other sites till the TRX series was working well on NXDN. I'll get it set up tomorrow or Wednesday and leave it run for several days to grab channel numbers and neighbors. Then switch to WNJL641 and see what happens.

Besides, if I run DSD+ I might get some aliases for the UID's I've been logging.

BTW, these are the frequencies I'm running from the FCC database for WNUF588

461.075
461.5875
461.9125
462.125
463.2
463.275
463.4
463.65
463.8
463.85
464.05
464.1875
464.95
Quite a few of the locations have multiple licenses associated with them, even though in some cases those locations [as listed in the DB] do not have all of the frequencies listed or all of the potential licenses listed.

What should [hopefully] happen is that all applicable licenses for a particular site will be added under the license area [so people can look up exactly what frequencies are licensed to that site], whilst only known active frequencies would be listed in the DB.

Obviously there are situations where [in your scanner] you will want to add additional frequencies for a site, if you originally programmed your scanner based upon what is in the RRDB and the RRDB doesn't include those frequencies.

Examples are sites 12 and 23, for which you are hearing traffic on frequencies listed on other licenses [that aren't added under that site in the DB].

Of course, if you submit those additions to sites 12/23, as I mentioned in a previous post, that will fix that issue for others that monitor those sites.

I still don't have a concrete understanding of how the TRX's are doing their trunking. I'm told they don't rely upon the channel number, which is interesting to me. I guess that in order to scan an NXDN-C site you simply have to have all the frequencies progammed in with the appropriate RAN. If that's the case, for Sites 12 and 23 [at the very least], in your scanner you should make sure that the frequencies for all licenses associated with those sites are programmed in. I don' tknow if that increases the scan time significantly though -- it may very well do that. And, if you add frequencies that aren't actually active on the site [but are licensed to the site], you run the risk of having interference or scanning delay issues if the scanner stops on that freq because it detects traffic unrelated to that site.

Mike
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Old 05-08-2017, 1:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sibbley View Post
Just as FYI. This system seems to come alive more and more each day. I have another 4 wildcard TGID hits today on the Allentown site. I just wish I knew who they were!
Well, I imagine it's the same everywhere -- often very hard to pin down the specific users on a talkgroup. In my area, there are a lot of entities that come and go. They might use the system for a couple months in the summer (lawn care) or in the winter (plowing) and then never be heard from again . Then, next year some other company is issued the talkgroup. It becomes very confusing.

For those you are able to absolutely identify, hats off to you. I rarely am able to identify the specific companys / agencies on a DMR/NXDN system in my area.

I don't know how long Conway has been promoting their system [publicly on their website or privately to potential customers], but it is apparently built out pretty extensively now with 29+ sites, and so I would expect activity to grow -- at least in the very populated areas.

mike
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Old 05-08-2017, 1:16 PM
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Originally Posted by sibbley View Post
From your google map, and the frequencies you mention above, it seems I should run DSD+ on the WNUF588 site. I've only ever run it on the Allentown site. I didn't realize I would be able to hear anything on the other sites till the TRX series was working well on NXDN.
Yes, that would be a good idea. At least some times you are obviously able to hear site 12 and site 23, so it would be good to check them out with DSDPlus.

In the case of sites 12 and 23, if you _just_ used what was currently in the DB to program your scanner, you would be missing things since there are frequencies active on those sites from another license. So it will definitely be a good idea to pay attention to which sites have multiple licenses.

My Google spreadsheet lists all trunked licenses for each site. Hopefully on this system the operator isn't using any frequencies from non-trunked licenses. They seem to be pretty good about keeping things up to date at the FCC though.

As much of a pain in the butt it is, if you are really bored and find some time, you might consider checking for NXDN control channels everywhere from 450-455 and 460-465 mhz, and looking specifically for anything that comes up as an NXDN control channel with a system idea of L264. You may very well hear some other site that you didn't think you could hear, or might discover a new site that isn't yet documented in the DB.

According to the coverage map on their site, it would suggest many more sites online -- and some of those sites might be in your area.

Mike
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Old 05-08-2017, 1:16 PM
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I started listening with DSD+ back in December. There was not much traffic at all. I originally found the callsigns and frequencies through DigitalFrequencySearch.com. From there to the FCC database, and then to DSD+ and the TRX's. I don't look much at the RR database since I like the challenge of finding these things on my own.

I'll submit the sites and frequencies you pointed out once I find channel numbers.
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Old 05-08-2017, 1:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sibbley View Post
I started listening with DSD+ back in December. There was not much traffic at all. I originally found the callsigns and frequencies through DigitalFrequencySearch.com. From there to the FCC database, and then to DSD+ and the TRX's. I don't look much at the RR database since I like the challenge of finding these things on my own.

I'll submit the sites and frequencies you pointed out once I find channel numbers.
Thanks for any effort you are willing to put in. As Eric Cottrell pointed out, this system is using a standard UHF map for channel numbers. So you won't have to look for channel numbers.

But certainly do look for any potential new NXDN control channels when you're running DSDPlus, and if you find any new ones for this system gather any info you can (RAN / site ID, neighbors, etc).

If you see any issues with what I have documented, or if it looks like I'm lagging behind on updating my documents, feel free to email me offline at my Gmail address. mtindor@.

Thanks!

mike
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Old 05-10-2017, 6:58 AM
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Set up WNUF588 (Stroudsburg) on DSD+ last night, no control channel using the frequencies under that call sign all FB6. Same for WNJL641. I have found on Con+ systems that the control channel for a particular system can reside under another call sign. I'll have to look into a bit further. I also noticed, for the first time, that 2 of the frequencies under WNUF588 are also under WNCA488 (Allentown). Funny that I missed that before, but oh well. When I get hits on those frequencies, they are the same RAN as Allentown, so I will assume, they are Allentown.

So without control channels, no neighbor list.

I am logging frequency, RAN, TGID, RID, aliases, and audio. Using FMP24 at this point till I find control channels.

WPMZ692 is also listed as Stroudsburg, maybe the control channel resides there.
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Old 05-10-2017, 8:00 AM
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The database suggests that the control channel for Stroudsburg is 451.225 (or at least was at some point in time).

As I mentioned previously, probably the best way to go about it is to just stop on every active signal you find from 450-455 and 460-465 and see what DSD+ says about it. You'd almost certainly find the active control channel for that site (and Allentown and maybe others) if you were to do that. You never know. They might be alternating control channels, and they might have some control channels on 454 mhz.

mike
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Old 05-11-2017, 6:35 AM
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Neighbor list from Allentown (WNCA488). This is from 3/25/17. Control Channel 461.3875

2017/03/25 08:07:21 Freq=461.387500 Current network: L264
2017/03/25 08:07:21 Freq=461.387500 RAN=26 Current site: L264-26
2017/03/25 08:07:47 Freq=461.387500 RAN=26 L264-26 neighbor: Site L264-6; CC=151
2017/03/25 08:07:47 Freq=461.387500 RAN=26 L264-26 neighbor: Site L264-12; CC=165
2017/03/25 08:07:47 Freq=461.387500 RAN=26 L264-26 neighbor: Site L264-20; CC=534
2017/03/25 08:07:47 Freq=461.387500 RAN=26 L264-26 neighbor: Site L264-22; CC=601
2017/03/25 08:07:47 Freq=461.387500 RAN=26 L264-26 neighbor: Site L264-23; CC=99

Will confirm that control channel for Stroudsburg (WPMZ692) is 451.2250.

2017/05/10 18:47:50 Freq=451.225000 Current network: L264
2017/05/10 18:47:50 Freq=451.225000 RAN=23 Current site: L264-23
2017/05/10 18:47:58 Freq=451.225000 Current network: L264
2017/05/10 18:47:58 Freq=451.225000 RAN=23 Current site: L264-23
2017/05/10 18:48:16 Freq=451.225000 RAN=23 L264-23 neighbor: Site L264-11; CC=211
2017/05/10 18:48:16 Freq=451.225000 RAN=23 L264-23 neighbor: Site L264-12; CC=165
2017/05/10 18:48:16 Freq=451.225000 RAN=23 L264-23 neighbor: Site L264-22; CC=601
2017/05/10 18:48:16 Freq=451.225000 RAN=23 L264-23 neighbor: Site L264-26; CC=512
2017/05/10 18:48:16 Freq=451.225000 RAN=23 L264-23 neighbor: Site L264-29; CC=181
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Old 05-11-2017, 6:47 AM
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Since these frequencies show RAN of 23, does it make sense that they are part of the Stroudsburg (WPMZ692) site?

From WNUF588:

2017/05/09 19:02:36 Freq=464.187500 RAN=23 Group call; TG=761 RID=5771
2017/05/09 19:02:38 Freq=464.950000 RAN=23 Group call; TG=761 RID=5770 [---] 6s
2017/05/09 19:02:58 Freq=461.912500 RAN=23 Group call; TG=761 RID=5771 [---] 9s
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Old 05-11-2017, 7:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtindor View Post

If you submit those, they can be added to the sites as confirmed active frequencies for those sites.

Really, I appreciate your logs. Thanks!

Mike
Made the submission this morning, although I see the frequencies are listed. I provided logs from DSD+ and my TRX.

I have many TGID's. What is the best way to submit those. I mentioned in my submission to the DB that it would be easier to submit using an excel file. I could attach that here or email to whoever.
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