BC296D Programming Questions

[wr7agt]

Hello South Dakotans,

I am in Helena Montana and we are about to launch the first APCO 25 system that will eventually be a statewide system much like yours.

I just bought a BC296D in preparation for the changeover on Feb 1 for the Lewis and Clark county area.

It is a VHF 5 (soon 6) site system, Smartnet, Smartzoneish in that all the sites are tied together via Microwave. I am assuming that trunking affiliation will cause voice channels at each site to come on if a talk group is used and one or more radios have affiliated on the site. So far, I know the Control Channel at each site, as well as the voice channels at each site. So far, the Control Channels have remained constant on one freq, but very occasionally and for a very short time, I have heard the Control Channel switch to one of the other voice channels. Most of the sites only have 3 frequencies anyway, one has 5.

So now to programming and questions. The manual that I have read on-line talks about the need, on VHF Trunked systems, for a base, space, and offset in order to work. The lowest frequency from all 5 sites is 154.340, and happens to be a Control Channel. I have seen reference to this base space offset thing and understand that the "space" is likely to be 15Khz as all the freqs are currently using standard VHF channels, and go as high as 159.465. Thus, 154.340 to 159.465 is the range in which all channels are found.

How do you guys program this base, space, offset for your systems and is the base freq the lowest they use, or some frequency below the 154.34 channel?

Space is assuming, 15

and then I see the 380 as a "default" for the "frequency" entry, but may not be correct.

And now for an operational question. If I had a XTS I would know how the smartzone works to keep a radio affiliated with a site and talkgroup, but not a Uniden.

Would it be wise to program all five sites in one bank, control channels and all, or each site in a seperate bank? If all in one bank, will I be able to stay with a talkgroup as it moves from site to site, if it moves? In the beginning there will be very few talk groups in use, but I guess the question is, can the 296 scan all the control channels and lock to a talk group regardless of which site or sites is being used?

Any help from those experiencing VHF APCO 25 systems would be greatly appreciated. The scanner arrives tomorrow (17th), so I have time to play, but, there is no activity yet other than the control channels in use at each site.

Thanks,

Tom

 

[loumaag]

Tom, first welcome to the site.

Now as to the questions. Since you have chosen the Uniden models for monitoring your new VHF system, remember that you must have all of the frequencies for each site in the bank so the fact that CC's may switch doesn't matter. Also mixing sites in banks becomes problematic for adjacent sites. You should be able to solve those problems however. Perhaps a better choice for VHF/UHF systems would be the Pro-96 as it only requires the control channel on all Motorla systems.

The Base/Offset/Spacing settings will have to be determined. No, the lowest frequency on the system may or may not be the Base frequency. The base frequency is most commonly the frequency assigned to channel 380, this is assuming we are not talking about an APCO-25 system (and I mean a system, not modulation type). Motorola Type II Smartzone/Smartnet VHF/UHF almost always use 380 as the offset (0x07C) because that gives them 380 channels for input and 380 channels for output. To easily find the Base Frequency requires using either Trunker or a similar software product so that you can determine a channel number. Once you have a channel number and an associated frequency (by using your ears) then assuming the spacing of 15KHz you can map the entire system, unless it is like South Dakota's which actually uses 3 sets of Base/Offset/Spacing. Without Trunker (or something similar) it can still be done, it just takes longer. I would advise reviewing the data located here on the site, see the links on the left of the Home Page, but especailly the page on Determining Motorola VHF/UHF Channel Assignments.

As to the question of putting them all in one bank, it probably is not a good idea on a Uniden model, because of the way Uniden handles CC trunktracking, and the issue I mentioned above.

After going over some of this, get back and see if you have some specific questions. However, prior to that I have one, is the new system you are putting in actually an APCO-25 system (say like Alaska's ALMR) or is it just a Type II system using P-25 audio like South Dakota's?

 

[loumaag]

Well, thats what I get for not looking first. Apparantly the system is already in the DB here but we don't appear to have the settings yet. The easiest way to get these, since it seems to be an APCO-25 system, is to have someone with a Pro-96 run the Pro96Com program that can be found here on the site on the download page.

 

[wr7agt]

Lou,

I actually posted the freq info for the Lewis and Clark System. I also am a tower site owner in Montana and have talked to several folks about the system. I am familiar with Smartnet Systems in that I have had to do programming for a large system in the past, but not real up on the APCO stuff.

Here is what I have been told. The Base Station infrastructure is all Motorola, and is supposed to be APCO-25. One thing I noticed today which may just have been my own screw up, but I turned of the digital card in the 296 to see about battery life. When I went back to try and scan the trunked system, it would not lock up on the control channels, any of them. Turned the card back on and it locked up. I will also say that for the first time, I actually had a hit when the Sheriff herself was heard calling another guy, by name, and the calling the channel "SO Admin", something they do not have. Unfortunately I didn't get to the radio quick enough to see the talk group ID. But, it isn't officially ON yet, but it did track one.

Now, the equipment is supposedly a Smartnet based APCO-25. The mobiles that are being set up, at least for the rich county and state, are Astro 25 Spectras. I am told by the State radio guy that they will be able to operate in three modes, more or less. Plain old analog voice, APCO-25 Digital, and Astro Encrypted (Yep, your tax money at waste). The Undersheriff has told me that they wanted APCO-25 so that they could buy Relms and other cheap stuff for radios, the State Radio guys says "Not if they want to operate on the trunked system", so who knows. But, based on everything I have heard, and the Request for Proposals, the Microwave info, etc., I firmly believe it to be a true APCO-25 system, based on Motorola Smartnet trunking. Just looked at an article and RFP I have in the Computer. It is defined as a "Motorola Astro 25 Smartzone VHF Trunked System, APCO 25 Backwards Compatible".

I have a powerpoint that shows the actual System Design as well.

Now for some of the issues. I have trunker and attempted to gather data from the Control Channels, something I was able to do easily on the Smartnet 800 system in Columbus, OH with my R8500's discriminator and data slicer. However, something doesn't seem to want to work with the VHF system using the exact same setup. It looks like trunker is not getting enough info. I expected that the problem may be the very 9600 baud rate either at the discriminator, or more likely, the serial port to the old computer. But, for whatever reason, no go.

As to the multiple sites in one bank, I should point out that all the sites are basically overlapping in the majority of places. Three of the mountain top sites are located on the west, northwest, and north edge of the valley at 7 and 8000 feet. One is at the Sheriffs office right in town, another 6 miles to the East i at the East Helena PD. All but one of the 5 sites are very strong, even at my house south of town 15 miles into the mountains. A lot of overkill, but so be it, tax money again. How the Spectras are going to keep from affiliating all over the place I don't know. They may never move off of the downtown site when they start their cars and head out. But I am under the impression that it will be a similar deal to a Smartzone style affiliation, with channels and talkgroups coming out of any given site only if a mobile on the correct talkgroup has affiliated with that site.

I am using the 380, 15Khz, and 154.340 right now. I will check the link you gave and see if I can learn more. It may not be until 2/1 before much starts happening. I scanned all the channels at all sites for a couple of days over the weekend and never heard a peep on any of the "voice" channels, maybe nobody can afford an XTS or a Spectra yet, but the one call today gives me hope.

 

[loumaag]

Tom,

Well everything you say seems to indicate that you are looking at a 9.6Kb/S system (APCO-25). I was surprised that the Uniden doesn't have the ability to tell you that. :?

If you can find someone in the area with a Pro-96, it will solve a lot of problems. First, just on the display, it will confirm the system type by sitting on the CC in Manual Mode. Then (assuming it is an APCO-25) if they run Pro96Com as I mentioned previously, it will map out channels for you. The rules for tables for VHF/UFH APCO-25 systems have nothing in common with the Smartzone/Smartnet set ups. So the 380 is not applicable. You should review the thread on the Pro96Com especially toward the end where tables are discussed.

 

[wr7agt]

Lou,

I was able to get my hands on a pro 96, version 1.3. However, the cable that came with it is not the correct PC interface for the 96. Do you mave the wiring or pin out on the correct cable. I have downloaded the procom96, but can't use it till I have the right cable.

On a different note, I have got the display on the 96 to show me system, and tower ID. The sys ID is 16E or actualy as on the screen, SY16E, so I assume it is the system ID, but I am used to 4 digit IDs like 232E for Columbus OH. Is there a conversion to get to the moto ID or is this 3 digit thing right. Tower IDs changed for each site CC, so that is good, There is also a display in the sequence that shows BEE00. What is that.

As soon as I can put a cable together or mod the one I have, I will dig deeper with procom96.

Thanks

 

[loumaag]

By this time you probably have already seen the reply about the cable over on the other thread. As for the system ID, yes APCO-25 ID's are 3 digits. The tower number is acually displayed in a format which is a little strange. The first number is a zone number the second two numbers is the site (in that zone) in HEX. The other number is a Wide Area Communication Network (WACN) number.

I was gonna update the info, on the site, but one of the other admins spotted the info and updated already. :lol:

 

[wr7agt]

Success and more questions

Lou,

I was able to get my hands on the Pro 96 and the proper cable. Pro96com is working great. It has identified the Control channels for all 7 sites, and alternate channels on sites I can't hear. Oddly, and I think I know the reason, several frequencies listed as control channels are in 161.900 to 162 area, or Federal Freqs.

The system is going to be shared with BLM and USFS as well, so I suspect they gave the system some freqs, and as such, do not show up on FCC License data bases, but they are on the air with them as a control channel, sys id the same, tower sites, etc.

So, I now have all 7 sites programmed into the Pro96 with both voice and Control Channels. Each site in a seperate bank for now.

Now we are back to the base space offset thing.

Much like the instructions on Pro96com, I get a freq id table that has 13 total IDs. ) and 1 is as shown, the 800 and 700 Meg stuff, so un important. After that however I get several VHF channels. As below:

ID BASE SPACING OFFSET A/C BW
2 149.230 .005 -20.7625 C .01250
3 149.050 .005 -20.0125
4 149.020 .005 -13.3375
5 146.005 .005 -12.5125
6 136.005 .010 - 6.2375
7 136.000 .0125 - 4.6000
8 145.015 .005 -10.2625
9 144.110 .005 - 8.875
10 136.005 .010 - 2.450
11 136.005 .010 - 1.9625
12 136.005 .010 - 1.475

The A/C is all C and the BW is all .0125

Now, I will check again, but this same table is the same on all Control Channels I have seen.

No activity other than I have seen an ID list on the active infor on a couple of the sites when I have listened long enough

Now, I can convert all the info above per the instructions, but how does one decide which 1, or 6 I should program into the system. I thought I had read something about this on the forums but I have read so much lately I am not sure.

Thanks,

Tom

I will upload the new improved data for the system as far as sites, tower Numbers and Control channels, and alternate.

 

[loumaag]

The using of frequencies which do not appear on the FCC database is not that strange. The closest site to me on the SD system does not have 1 frequency in the FCC database.

In any case, stand-by for an email from me.

 

[wr7agt]

Lou,

I made a call and yes the 161/162 freqs were donated as part of the shared system from the feds, so no FCC data.

I may have figured out some of the Base, Space stuff by reading a bit more on the Pro96com data pages. The Activity page is showng the Control Channel and the Alternate, and occasionally an ID when the site sends an ID. In front of these is a "Channel" indicator and having read the documents, it sounds like the first number, like in 7-818, the 7, is the Freq ID table for that channel. So, with 6 per bank, I assume that I will know more of the IDs after the system gets going and all of the sites channels are selected by the controller. As there is no more than 5 channels at any one site, should be OK.

But, in your e-mail, is there any way to make a corresponding determination for the 296D. Base is probably safe, as well as the 12.5Khz space, but channel Number??? Use 380 and hope for the best?

Thanks for the help, system still quiet as a mouse, but hopefully in the next couple of weeks things will start happening.

Thanks