Gotcha, I got way-laid and was thinking Armada. I haven't had an opportunity to play with FPP on an NX-5000 yet. I did with the NX-1000 series, and it works pretty well-oh, and you don't need a license for it!
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Best Portable/Mobile ecosystem: NX-5000 line vs Motorola R7 + XPR5000e
- Thread starter lucasec
- Start date
At least in my test scenario, it does not automatically select dual slot direct mode (thank goodness), I tried both simplex and repeater based. I do remember someone mentioned no FPP in Armada DMR. I haven't had a chance to test it out there, still waiting on my order.
I add TG’s on the fly all the time. For each ham repeater I program 2 channels (most popular ones), one for each time slot. I have scan all TG’s box checked. Any TG received I can talk back if quick enough. I have a soft button for GROUP (long press of return button). I press button, scroll to TG I want and PTT. This new TG expires with timer so if conversation has gaps then radio reverts to programmed channel.
My VP8000 is similar but the new TG persists until I manually set it back (hopefully I remember because it persists power cycling). Also the VP has more flexible receive
groups similar to Motorola.
Yeah, no DMR fpp. FPP is still buggy where it does work. I can’t alter the channel name—I punch in new name OK but there is no Save button visible.
lucasec
Member
I managed to get this resolved. The dealer got Kenwood support involved and they gave me a few extra account seats I should have been more insistent about asking for in the first place (you did warn me... I failed to put two and two together when you said "ask for the 10-seat account key").
LMC worked fine on the second computer I tried. Why it didn't like my first one, who knows.
lucasec
Member
So I'm still learning all the DMR settings... mind pointing me to a quick primer on dual-slot direct and what problems it causes?
So I have found that for individual user IDs it lets you either select from list or manually key in an ID. As far as I know no equivalent function for groups, e.g. to receive a given group ID it must already be in the radio's group list.
I actually currently have all my DMR repeaters programmed as two channels, one for each timeslot, with "Group ID Scan" enabled. I set "Selcall on PTT" to call up some sensible default group. Then I'm using the "Group" key/menu item to call up other particular group I want to talk to on that slot. It will keep calling the selected group until the "Auto Reset Timer" expires and it reverts back to the channel name on the display. I'm not sure I will keep this strategy long-term though, as it's kind of error-prone to remember each repeater's rules for which groups can be called on which slot.
lucasec
Member
I will answer my own question here then take this back to the original topic of comparing Kenwood and Motorola ecosystems. Picked up a cheap Chinese portable to do some interop testing and indeed, a channel programmed for dual-slot direct can't receive non-dual-slot traffic or vice-versa. I'm guessing the majority of other DMR users out there are not using dual-slot direct.
The FPP definitely has its limitations, mainly that we're at the mercy of the limited selection of settings Kenwood decided to offer, which don't always match up with the amateur usecase (the lack of being able to select 25KHz for analog being the obvious example). DMR at least seems quasi-sane. It sets group ID scan and does not set dual-slot mode. Having the group call menu programmed was key since it does not let you select a default contact/talkgroup.
lucasec
Member
So returning to my original topic, now that I've gotten my foot in the door with commercial radios.
At some point, when my budget recovers from the NX-5800 purchase, I could still be interested in either seeking out either a Motorola or Kenwood portable. I am still quite intrigued by the appearance of the R7 (including that large screen), plus as others mentioned, some of the audio processing features in the Motorola line.
On audio specifically, I do first need to spend more time with the Kenwood audio profile options (which as I understand mostly only affect digital). AGC for digital would certainly be nice—listening to a few amateur nets the audio levels are really all over the charts. Way worse than analog, as odd as that seems.
Otherwise, it's hard to argue with the convenience of getting another Kenwood unit that programs with D1N. A few clicks and I've got another radio up. Plus can do multiple radio IDs, system types, etc. Anything else I would be missing out on, besides learning Moto's CPS?
At some point, when my budget recovers from the NX-5800 purchase, I could still be interested in either seeking out either a Motorola or Kenwood portable. I am still quite intrigued by the appearance of the R7 (including that large screen), plus as others mentioned, some of the audio processing features in the Motorola line.
On audio specifically, I do first need to spend more time with the Kenwood audio profile options (which as I understand mostly only affect digital). AGC for digital would certainly be nice—listening to a few amateur nets the audio levels are really all over the charts. Way worse than analog, as odd as that seems.
Otherwise, it's hard to argue with the convenience of getting another Kenwood unit that programs with D1N. A few clicks and I've got another radio up. Plus can do multiple radio IDs, system types, etc. Anything else I would be missing out on, besides learning Moto's CPS?
Play with Motorola CPS 2.0 (it's free). I think the consensus among most of us around here is that it is the worst CPS in 40 years. Some large fleet/TRS users have somewhat defended it but without specifics. The work around is to build your codeplug in CPS 16 and then import into 2.0 for purpose of shooting the radio (and setting some newer functions). If you like to constantly play with codeplugs or tweak things the CPS2.0 will kill you..
D1N is slow to load but reasonably responsive while working on codeplugs and moving things around. It is not particularly Excel friendly since there are limited table views. Doesn’’t have fill down etc. things you already know. The software costs money and the authorization on each computer is ridiculous!
On the NX5xxx series and audio you have no actual control over analog except maybe attenuation. The equalizer part does nothing and I think doesn’t even show up under analog. FM audio is not good—not bad but not good. In the past Kenwood audio was exceptional—they were famous for it. In digital it does seem to work the same as other major brands (DMR audio is compromised inherently). The normal settings are quite hot and taking it down (-10db) will be necessary to match the majority of radios out there. I use P25 as well so R7 not an option for me. I have xpr7550 which has an exceptional receiver and covers entire UHF band. There is a better availability of NX5xxx on the used market than R7.
Motorola is just being a deliberate ass by locking radios to 1 RID. They are alone in this strategy. The R7 does look good and Motorola always makes a solid transceiver. In DMR they have TG scan lists customizable by channel unlike Kenwood where only scan option is ALL of master list for that system (thankfully Armada works like motorola). If I expected to use radio on TRS I would favor Motorola since M builds most of the TRS systems in US and they try to game the rules to advantage their brand of radios. Motorola will always be a no brainer fit to most TRS systems EXCEPT for price. Also, with all of the mmdvm repeaters in the amateur community, I’ve found M more tolerant of improperly set up mmdvm (pulse width, modulation).
That is correct. In simplex use, most users are still not using DSDM. It's an interesting concept, but in the real world, the need for the "extra" capacity and having it work properly doesn't align with reality.
Couple of black marks on the R7 that I'm aware of (I have not laid hands on one), requires initialization with the cloud service, the requirement to use CPS2.0, and the cost. The NX-5300 will cost less and have more capabilities than the R7 (radio IDs, add P25, or use NXDN already included, etc.), and you can use D1N to copy between your 5800 code plug.
lucasec
Member
I want to say someone mentioned something earlier in this thread (or maybe another one) on a 16-talkgroup receive list limit for Motorola. Or maybe they were referring to the limit on the number of groups in the Persistent Group ID list on Kenwood (I checked and this seems to be 32).
I assume for transmit it can program similarly to Kenwood with either a fixed talkgroup per channel or a program key to bring up the group call list.
Yeah that cloud activation definitely looks like... a process. I'm sure creating that specially named WiFi network is a paid for small shops. Then again Kenwood LMC feature activation ended up being its own ordeal too.
I need to pop over to the Motorola forum and go through the guide to request access to CPS. Can probably learn a lot just going through the software. Of course Motorola is particularly convenient that I should be able to do that before I have to shell out for the radio or any paid software license.
I never did understand the persistent group feature or why use it. Not doubting its utility, just I don’t understand. Maybe emergency TG’s? I use broadcast.
For awhile I used different personalities which were identical except for master TG list. Problem was my 1000 channel NX radio has a 32 Personality limit (keep this in mind for programming strategy). When using talkback on receive group list you have to be quick as I don’t think there is any timer adjustment—if repeater drops (approx 2 sec) you cannot talkback until you once again receive traffic and hopefully are quicker on PTT.
On both M and NX when selecting TG from keypad it has a timer (<7sec I think) which is annoying. The Viking radios persist until manually reset (I think I’d prefer it reset on power cycle maybe…any scheme will create problems for devious users).
One more advantage to Motorola is that lists can be searched alphabetically according to alias. If I want to find a TG or user ID I spell it on keypad. For speed with large lists I use first letter or two in my alias naming strategy to group related TG’s or ID’s. If you punch “D” then you get to first D, then A and you go to first alias beginning with DA and so on. At any point you can scroll. If u put in ID’s as callsigns spelling speeds up scrolling (spell close and then scroll). Zones are the same— regardless of how they are arranged in the cps they will show up in the radio alphabetically (Alias) beginning with numbers. By creative naming you can set the order. In my case State specific zones begin with 2letter state abbreviation, space, (city system etc). To find a CA zone I hit C or CA and scroll if not too many options.
All of that is to say- I wish all radios used alphabetical order NOT memory slots for radio access to lists!
lucasec
Member
In my finding, at least with NX-5000, the "auto reset timer" controls how long the group holds. I saw some suggestions in other threads that the timer was buggy/didn't apply in all situations, but at least on firmware 5.20 it seems fairly consistent. If I set it to "Off", the radio will stay on the group—it will not persist across power off or channel change. Also, if you are in a scan, the scan will stop indefinitely until you hit the "Clear" key to reset the call state.
It feels similar to setting a up receive group list, just that Kenwood assumes you want to use the same RX group list for all channels in the system. Maybe that makes sense in a homogeneous commercial system where all frequencies have the same set of groups available and you want to hear some groups all the time but others only when you call them up.
This is really about the only thing I miss from the XPR7550e upon moving to an NX-5200. The audio leveling and DSP on the XPR7550e that were applied to analog signals made it a real pleasure to listen to. I don't see why Kenwood couldn't enable this for analog transmissions, but for whatever reason, they haven't.
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