Gotcha, I got way-laid and was thinking Armada. I haven't had an opportunity to play with FPP on an NX-5000 yet. I did with the NX-1000 series, and it works pretty well-oh, and you don't need a license for it!
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Best Portable/Mobile ecosystem: NX-5000 line vs Motorola R7 + XPR5000e
- Thread starter lucasec
- Start date
At least in my test scenario, it does not automatically select dual slot direct mode (thank goodness), I tried both simplex and repeater based. I do remember someone mentioned no FPP in Armada DMR. I haven't had a chance to test it out there, still waiting on my order.
I add TG’s on the fly all the time. For each ham repeater I program 2 channels (most popular ones), one for each time slot. I have scan all TG’s box checked. Any TG received I can talk back if quick enough. I have a soft button for GROUP (long press of return button). I press button, scroll to TG I want and PTT. This new TG expires with timer so if conversation has gaps then radio reverts to programmed channel.
My VP8000 is similar but the new TG persists until I manually set it back (hopefully I remember because it persists power cycling). Also the VP has more flexible receive
groups similar to Motorola.
Yeah, no DMR fpp. FPP is still buggy where it does work. I can’t alter the channel name—I punch in new name OK but there is no Save button visible.
lucasec
Member
I managed to get this resolved. The dealer got Kenwood support involved and they gave me a few extra account seats I should have been more insistent about asking for in the first place (you did warn me... I failed to put two and two together when you said "ask for the 10-seat account key").
LMC worked fine on the second computer I tried. Why it didn't like my first one, who knows.
lucasec
Member
So I'm still learning all the DMR settings... mind pointing me to a quick primer on dual-slot direct and what problems it causes?
So I have found that for individual user IDs it lets you either select from list or manually key in an ID. As far as I know no equivalent function for groups, e.g. to receive a given group ID it must already be in the radio's group list.
I actually currently have all my DMR repeaters programmed as two channels, one for each timeslot, with "Group ID Scan" enabled. I set "Selcall on PTT" to call up some sensible default group. Then I'm using the "Group" key/menu item to call up other particular group I want to talk to on that slot. It will keep calling the selected group until the "Auto Reset Timer" expires and it reverts back to the channel name on the display. I'm not sure I will keep this strategy long-term though, as it's kind of error-prone to remember each repeater's rules for which groups can be called on which slot.
lucasec
Member
I will answer my own question here then take this back to the original topic of comparing Kenwood and Motorola ecosystems. Picked up a cheap Chinese portable to do some interop testing and indeed, a channel programmed for dual-slot direct can't receive non-dual-slot traffic or vice-versa. I'm guessing the majority of other DMR users out there are not using dual-slot direct.
The FPP definitely has its limitations, mainly that we're at the mercy of the limited selection of settings Kenwood decided to offer, which don't always match up with the amateur usecase (the lack of being able to select 25KHz for analog being the obvious example). DMR at least seems quasi-sane. It sets group ID scan and does not set dual-slot mode. Having the group call menu programmed was key since it does not let you select a default contact/talkgroup.
lucasec
Member
So returning to my original topic, now that I've gotten my foot in the door with commercial radios.
At some point, when my budget recovers from the NX-5800 purchase, I could still be interested in either seeking out either a Motorola or Kenwood portable. I am still quite intrigued by the appearance of the R7 (including that large screen), plus as others mentioned, some of the audio processing features in the Motorola line.
On audio specifically, I do first need to spend more time with the Kenwood audio profile options (which as I understand mostly only affect digital). AGC for digital would certainly be nice—listening to a few amateur nets the audio levels are really all over the charts. Way worse than analog, as odd as that seems.
Otherwise, it's hard to argue with the convenience of getting another Kenwood unit that programs with D1N. A few clicks and I've got another radio up. Plus can do multiple radio IDs, system types, etc. Anything else I would be missing out on, besides learning Moto's CPS?
At some point, when my budget recovers from the NX-5800 purchase, I could still be interested in either seeking out either a Motorola or Kenwood portable. I am still quite intrigued by the appearance of the R7 (including that large screen), plus as others mentioned, some of the audio processing features in the Motorola line.
On audio specifically, I do first need to spend more time with the Kenwood audio profile options (which as I understand mostly only affect digital). AGC for digital would certainly be nice—listening to a few amateur nets the audio levels are really all over the charts. Way worse than analog, as odd as that seems.
Otherwise, it's hard to argue with the convenience of getting another Kenwood unit that programs with D1N. A few clicks and I've got another radio up. Plus can do multiple radio IDs, system types, etc. Anything else I would be missing out on, besides learning Moto's CPS?
Play with Motorola CPS 2.0 (it's free). I think the consensus among most of us around here is that it is the worst CPS in 40 years. Some large fleet/TRS users have somewhat defended it but without specifics. The work around is to build your codeplug in CPS 16 and then import into 2.0 for purpose of shooting the radio (and setting some newer functions). If you like to constantly play with codeplugs or tweak things the CPS2.0 will kill you..
D1N is slow to load but reasonably responsive while working on codeplugs and moving things around. It is not particularly Excel friendly since there are limited table views. Doesn’’t have fill down etc. things you already know. The software costs money and the authorization on each computer is ridiculous!
On the NX5xxx series and audio you have no actual control over analog except maybe attenuation. The equalizer part does nothing and I think doesn’t even show up under analog. FM audio is not good—not bad but not good. In the past Kenwood audio was exceptional—they were famous for it. In digital it does seem to work the same as other major brands (DMR audio is compromised inherently). The normal settings are quite hot and taking it down (-10db) will be necessary to match the majority of radios out there. I use P25 as well so R7 not an option for me. I have xpr7550 which has an exceptional receiver and covers entire UHF band. There is a better availability of NX5xxx on the used market than R7.
Motorola is just being a deliberate ass by locking radios to 1 RID. They are alone in this strategy. The R7 does look good and Motorola always makes a solid transceiver. In DMR they have TG scan lists customizable by channel unlike Kenwood where only scan option is ALL of master list for that system (thankfully Armada works like motorola). If I expected to use radio on TRS I would favor Motorola since M builds most of the TRS systems in US and they try to game the rules to advantage their brand of radios. Motorola will always be a no brainer fit to most TRS systems EXCEPT for price. Also, with all of the mmdvm repeaters in the amateur community, I’ve found M more tolerant of improperly set up mmdvm (pulse width, modulation).
That is correct. In simplex use, most users are still not using DSDM. It's an interesting concept, but in the real world, the need for the "extra" capacity and having it work properly doesn't align with reality.
Couple of black marks on the R7 that I'm aware of (I have not laid hands on one), requires initialization with the cloud service, the requirement to use CPS2.0, and the cost. The NX-5300 will cost less and have more capabilities than the R7 (radio IDs, add P25, or use NXDN already included, etc.), and you can use D1N to copy between your 5800 code plug.
lucasec
Member
I want to say someone mentioned something earlier in this thread (or maybe another one) on a 16-talkgroup receive list limit for Motorola. Or maybe they were referring to the limit on the number of groups in the Persistent Group ID list on Kenwood (I checked and this seems to be 32).
I assume for transmit it can program similarly to Kenwood with either a fixed talkgroup per channel or a program key to bring up the group call list.
Yeah that cloud activation definitely looks like... a process. I'm sure creating that specially named WiFi network is a paid for small shops. Then again Kenwood LMC feature activation ended up being its own ordeal too.
I need to pop over to the Motorola forum and go through the guide to request access to CPS. Can probably learn a lot just going through the software. Of course Motorola is particularly convenient that I should be able to do that before I have to shell out for the radio or any paid software license.
I never did understand the persistent group feature or why use it. Not doubting its utility, just I don’t understand. Maybe emergency TG’s? I use broadcast.
For awhile I used different personalities which were identical except for master TG list. Problem was my 1000 channel NX radio has a 32 Personality limit (keep this in mind for programming strategy). When using talkback on receive group list you have to be quick as I don’t think there is any timer adjustment—if repeater drops (approx 2 sec) you cannot talkback until you once again receive traffic and hopefully are quicker on PTT.
On both M and NX when selecting TG from keypad it has a timer (<7sec I think) which is annoying. The Viking radios persist until manually reset (I think I’d prefer it reset on power cycle maybe…any scheme will create problems for devious users).
One more advantage to Motorola is that lists can be searched alphabetically according to alias. If I want to find a TG or user ID I spell it on keypad. For speed with large lists I use first letter or two in my alias naming strategy to group related TG’s or ID’s. If you punch “D” then you get to first D, then A and you go to first alias beginning with DA and so on. At any point you can scroll. If u put in ID’s as callsigns spelling speeds up scrolling (spell close and then scroll). Zones are the same— regardless of how they are arranged in the cps they will show up in the radio alphabetically (Alias) beginning with numbers. By creative naming you can set the order. In my case State specific zones begin with 2letter state abbreviation, space, (city system etc). To find a CA zone I hit C or CA and scroll if not too many options.
All of that is to say- I wish all radios used alphabetical order NOT memory slots for radio access to lists!
lucasec
Member
In my finding, at least with NX-5000, the "auto reset timer" controls how long the group holds. I saw some suggestions in other threads that the timer was buggy/didn't apply in all situations, but at least on firmware 5.20 it seems fairly consistent. If I set it to "Off", the radio will stay on the group—it will not persist across power off or channel change. Also, if you are in a scan, the scan will stop indefinitely until you hit the "Clear" key to reset the call state.
It feels similar to setting a up receive group list, just that Kenwood assumes you want to use the same RX group list for all channels in the system. Maybe that makes sense in a homogeneous commercial system where all frequencies have the same set of groups available and you want to hear some groups all the time but others only when you call them up.
This is really about the only thing I miss from the XPR7550e upon moving to an NX-5200. The audio leveling and DSP on the XPR7550e that were applied to analog signals made it a real pleasure to listen to. I don't see why Kenwood couldn't enable this for analog transmissions, but for whatever reason, they haven't.
lucasec
Member
I might price out a NX-5300 portable fairly soon.
If I understand correctly, I would need to order each of the following to have a complete radio:
Antennas: For UHF there are various ranges for whip, low-profile helical, and stubby. Obviously, I assume whip would perform best. Is Kenwood using a standard SMA-F connector where it would be relatively easy to slap any old amateur antenna or adapter on it?
If I understand correctly, I would need to order each of the following to have a complete radio:
- The radio itself (NX-5300K5 in my application)
- Feature licenses (DMR KWD-5300CV, BT Data KWD-5003BT, maybe FPP KWD-5001FP)
- An antenna
- A battery
- And a few one-off items: Programming Cable KPG-36XM, battery charger
Antennas: For UHF there are various ranges for whip, low-profile helical, and stubby. Obviously, I assume whip would perform best. Is Kenwood using a standard SMA-F connector where it would be relatively easy to slap any old amateur antenna or adapter on it?
I use the SD card license. It records all voice traffic coming and going and if digital the TG and ID. After a deployment I am usually the only one with a copy of mission radio traffic on UHF anyway (I have same on my VP8000). Can also store GPS data (I seldom have GPS on). FPP is really a desperation move where you make some modifications to an existing channel. With a zone full of template channels you can make it work somewhat. If you put in a lot of channels and change them around often without ability to test them all it might help you fix some errors in the field. If you are an established codeplug/environment guy where loadout is fully tested then you shouldn't need it.
My radio is loaded except for trunking and no hardware encryption module (If cheaper I'd get one). I use P25, DMR and FM. Kenwoods do not like poorly set up mmdvm repeaters out of spec on pulse width or other timing issues.
I have all but the very newest biggest OEM battery (the one that takes a newer charger) and while I usually go for capacity I found OEM slim batteries (Kenwood--not knock off) on Ebay at prices hard to resist. I could buy 2 for $36 if not less so having 2 of them vs $100 for hi-cap ($170 for newest hi cap) with more total capacity is hard to resist. I like redundancy.
Yes regular sma female antenna (pin is in radio).
When you get the radio you will have 2 options for programming-- channel or personality. I've always used the personality mode because it is more versatile. I use zone scan unless i really need to use scan list because if I want to erase the channel later the cps won't let me unless I clear it out of any scan lists it is in. It can be somewhat of an easter egg hunt getting a popular channel out of various scan lists.
I'm guessing you want ham coverage by going with the low-split K5. Just be aware it's a special-order for most dealers, especially in areas that have UHF T-band (470-512). The low-split used to be harder to get, but they are currently in stock at Kenwood.
When getting FPP for a VP8000, I had to certify that it was being used for one of the allowed purposes, which included Fed demo and licensee-authorized part 90 use. This may (understandably) give some dealers pause.
[edited – not sure about dimensions of batteries, so removed]
The KSC-Y32K is discontinued and NLA from Kenwood, with no replacement. You might find some out there in dealer stock I guess.
Yes, standard Kenwood SMA-male on the radio. Whip is best.
The factory KPG-36XM is kind of pricey. People have been happy with the BlueMax49ers clones.
Don't forget the KPG-D1N software. It has to be activated with KPT-300LMC (included) on Win10 or later.
When getting FPP for a VP8000, I had to certify that it was being used for one of the allowed purposes, which included Fed demo and licensee-authorized part 90 use. This may (understandably) give some dealers pause.
[edited – not sure about dimensions of batteries, so removed]
The KSC-Y32K is discontinued and NLA from Kenwood, with no replacement. You might find some out there in dealer stock I guess.
Yes, standard Kenwood SMA-male on the radio. Whip is best.
The factory KPG-36XM is kind of pricey. People have been happy with the BlueMax49ers clones.
Don't forget the KPG-D1N software. It has to be activated with KPT-300LMC (included) on Win10 or later.
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lucasec
Member
I'm currently using the built-in recording function (the very limited one that only gives you four 30-second recordings) on my mobile, but it doesn't store the TG ID and Caller ID as far as I can tell (I'm using DMR). In the recording playback list I get timestamp and that's it, not even the channel name.
(The "stack" function gives me the caller ID and what channel the call came on, but channel is not quite the same as TG ID when I have a personality in the mix set to Group ID Scan)
Hopefully the purchasing part is easy since my dealer also got me the low-split NX5800 (K2), and FPP on that. I am hit or miss on the usefulness of FPP though. If I was smart and thinking ahead, I would have cancelled the activation on the mobile in the 24-hour window and saved it for a portable.
Yeah, I think I remember seeing that elsewhere on this forum. Is Kenwood abandoning the smart charger/battery reader software because few people found value in it? Or the "smarts" are mostly obsolete with battery chemistries moving to lithium-ion (if I remember, some of its features such as reconditioning only apply to NiMH).
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
On some of the other Kenwood radios, they recommend the larger battery for trunked system use since the radio is working marginally harder than a conventional only radio.
My view on battery capacity:
If you use the radio in such a way that you never ustilize the full capacity of the battery before recharging, it's a waste of money. For my users at work that utilize the radio for ~8 hours a day and then immediately throw it on the charger overnight, I don't recommend the larger batteries since it's never used. Much easier to have two smaller batteries anyway, that way one can be on the charger and available if their shift runs long.
But the use cases for ham/hobby use can be different than public service and public safety. If you talk a lot on the radio and do regularly drain batteries, then it may be worth it.
Since these are not exactly petite radios, I understand about not wanting the big honkin' pack on there. I prefer the smaller battery on mine and just have a spare sitting on my desk if I need it.
I've found the stock Kenwood whips to be good antennas.
Keep in mind that if you run adapters, that can put strain on the antenna jack, and isn't ideal. Better to have the correct antenna connector if at all possible.
Haven't had a chance to experiment with a 5000 yet so I'm curious, do you know if it will record analog PTT IDs from FleetSync and MDC1200?
