Burlington County 700 MHz Project 25 TRS

[philacop]

Question?
Since Burlco has gone 700Mhz and Police are ENC does anyone know the Talcony Pal and Burl Brist Police TalkGroup on the new system?
Also do they still use the VHF Hi freq or the T Band one they are licensed to also?
They are District 48 and 49
Thanks

 

[trentbob]

I don't know the talk group of the Burlington-Bristol Bridge and the Tacony Palmyra Bridge but they are encrypted and yes they use the old F2 VHF 151.01 PL 127.3 twenty-four hours a day more than they use the TRS just like they always have. I listen every day, live near the bridge. Of course Channel 13 is not as busy as it used to be with bridge openings but nothing has changed there either. Operators always call for backup operators and rides to and from the tower on the old F2 VHF frequency.

 

[policefreak]

Just a few notes on the system as of today 6/7/21 - this morning (after 11am) traveling through Burlington County Evesham and into Mount Laurel, Westampton and beyond my usually surefire G5 sounded very shaky on the system. I have noticed that from Berlin between the SDS100 and Unication G5 the system is noticeably weaker than it used to be. I also heard Radio Repair testing on several response talkgroups today. Friday I heard them on the F1 patch testing. Lastly, as of yesterday I still do not hear any F1 patch transmissions on the South site. It has mostly been that way since the patch was put up.

 

[rrpratt]

Just a few notes on the system as of today 6/7/21 - this morning (after 11am) traveling through Burlington County Evesham and into Mount Laurel, Westampton and beyond my usually surefire G5 sounded very shaky on the system. I have noticed that from Berlin between the SDS100 and Unication G5 the system is noticeably weaker than it used to be. I also heard Radio Repair testing on several response talkgroups today. Friday I heard them on the F1 patch testing. Lastly, as of yesterday I still do not hear any F1 patch transmissions on the South site. It has mostly been that way since the patch was put up.

It's interesting you say that. 2 nights ago a Bordentown unit told Central their modulation was very low. And it is true. As you say the system is getting weak. Several times today certain random transmission on the R channels break up.

 

[rrpratt]

And of course as usual the F1 dispatch is normally weak on both the old system and the patched channel.

 

[policefreak]

It's interesting you say that. 2 nights ago a Bordentown unit told Central their modulation was very low. And it is true. As you say the system is getting weak. Several times today certain random transmission on the R channels break up.

Funny you mention that. The other evening (around 5ish - no other signs of band opening) I believe it was Florence was on a call and a couple times the units kept asking Central to repeat that they were broken up even though I could hear them clearly on my G5. Lately that happens periodically. I want to say Pemberton had it as well on a call a few nights ago.

 

[Steve162]

And of course as usual the F1 dispatch is normally weak on both the old system and the patched channel.

I have found that on the patched channel the paging tones are often broken up and the amplitude is considerably greater than the proceeding voice. I agree their modulation is way down but it was like that before the cut over. As I've mentioned before I'm not sure why that is but my thoughts are poor headset compatablilty and/or poor mike placement on the part of the dispatcher and/or soft-spoken dispatchers. It drives me nuts because I'll have to turn the volume down for the tones and then up for the voice message.

It's interesting you say that. 2 nights ago a Bordentown unit told Central their modulation was very low. And it is true. As you say the system is getting weak. Several times today certain random transmission on the R channels break up.

 

[rrpratt]

That's great Steve as I've thought that for quite sometime. Dispatcher position specific with mic position. Of that's the case I have to blame management at Central as they should be monitoring all those channels for quality.
Another thing that stands out is that when any R channel is patched to Camden County the audio is way up and sometimes too over modulated.
Again, I don't understand why these matters aren't looked at and acted on for fix.

 

[Skypilot007]

Perhaps scanners and G5 pagers are the problem and not the system. I know the F-1 dispatch channel has chronic audio problems that should have been fixed by now. The wide variation between pager tones and voice traffic should not happen. The communications support division probably doesn't care because the tones just set the pagers off and usually are not heard over the pager. As long as the volume is cranked up on the pager there's no problem to the end user hearing the dispatch call.

But on the 700 system, scanners and G5 pagers lack the functioning AGC for proper audio leveling. Scanners will hear low or high audio at times when a radio user has a microphone on their lap or leaves it on the hook when transmitting or starts yelling into the mic. Or perhaps a messed up headset at dispatch, it happens. A subscriber radio (Motorola AXP 6000/6500 series in this case) will level the incoming audio to where the user has their volume set and it won't sound low or high at all. This is assuming the communications support division properly implemented and configured the AGC setup for this system and all subscribers. My Relm BK radio has functioning AGC and handles this system and others nicely.

If you are an actual user of the system and are experiencing problems with your subscriber radios you have your channels to go thru to get service from the communications support division. If not their contact information is on the Burlington county web site.

Staff Directory • Burlington County, NJ • CivicEngage

 

[howie38]

I thought I was having speaker problems with my BCD436HP because the F1 voice was so scratchy & low that I couldn't understand it in my car. But when I went back to the analog F1 version the sound was much better, but still the voice is much lower than the tones. And of course, it doesn't pickup analog as well as digital, but at least it's understandable. On ether one of my 996 or 436, Burlington Co has never sounded anywhere near as clear & strong as Mercer or Camden. Those counties come in as strong as if I was listening on Broadcastify.

 

[Skypilot007]

I thought I was having speaker problems with my BCD436HP because the F1 voice was so scratchy & low that I couldn't understand it in my car. But when I went back to the analog F1 version the sound was much better, but still the voice is much lower than the tones. And of course, it doesn't pickup analog as well as digital, but at least it's understandable. On ether one of my 996 or 436, Burlington Co has never sounded anywhere near as clear & strong as Mercer or Camden. Those counties come in as strong as if I was listening on Broadcastify.

Broadcastify is just other scanners lacking AGC (Automatic Gain Control) so audio levels will vary there also. Not sure if there are any official feeds being provided by any county around here. If so, then you might get audio from a subscriber radio and it should have good audio. I don't have any problems with Burlco, it sounds good pretty much everywhere I go with the Relm BK radio. TRX-2 in the car is 50/50 with simulcast distortion. I even use a scanner (996P2) at home with no issues except it lacks functioning AGC and the audio gets crazy once in a while.

Remember the 996P2 or 436 are not P25 Phase II compatible. They were advertised as such but they lack the proper hardware to properly demodulate linear simulcasting systems. Shame on Uniden!

 

[Whiskey3JMC]

Remember the 996P2 or 436 are not P25 Phase II compatible.

Not true. Yes, they are not optimized to deal with simulcast distortion but not all P25 Phase-II systems are simulcast (take PA-STARNet P25 for example)

 

[policefreak]

Broadcastify is just other scanners lacking AGC (Automatic Gain Control) so audio levels will vary there also. Not sure if there are any official feeds being provided by any county around here. If so, then you might get audio from a subscriber radio and it should have good audio. I don't have any problems with Burlco, it sounds good pretty much everywhere I go with the Relm BK radio. TRX-2 in the car is 50/50 with simulcast distortion. I even use a scanner (996P2) at home with no issues except it lacks functioning AGC and the audio gets crazy once in a while.

Remember the 996P2 or 436 are not P25 Phase II compatible. They were advertised as such but they lack the proper hardware to properly demodulate linear simulcasting systems. Shame on Uniden!

This is all true. While there are audio issues for sure (and I suspect it's why my G5 does not consistently trip on the P25 patch) and while the Unication G4/G5 are professional grade receivers but are not perfect, the issues I have noted in my previous post are more related to reception. And today I had someone message me the same saying that reception from right across the river in Bensalem which is usually pretty sure, has been very choppy today.

 

[Skypilot007]

Not true. Yes, they are not optimized to deal with simulcast distortion but not all P25 Phase-II systems are simulcast (take PA-STARNet P25 for example)

View attachment 104774

This is correct. I have mis-spoken. I should have mentioned for LSM systems only. Thanks for pointing that out Whiskey3.

 

[howie38]

That's funny, I just caught an F1 dispatch complete with tones, on R4.
Just the first, the repeat didn't come through.

 

[tonemaster]

That's great Steve as I've thought that for quite sometime. Dispatcher position specific with mic position. Of that's the case I have to blame management at Central as they should be monitoring all those channels for quality.
Another thing that stands out is that when any R channel is patched to Camden County the audio is way up and sometimes too over modulated.
Again, I don't understand why these matters aren't looked at and acted on for fix.

The right people aren’t complaining enough. That’s why it never gets fixed.

 

[tonemaster]

That's funny, I just caught an F1 dispatch complete with tones, on R4.
Just the first, the repeat didn't come through.

Routinely operators have multiple channels selected/open on the console and occasionally when the F-1 operator steps away from the desk for a restroom break, etc. the person backing them up accidentally transmits over their own primary channel.

 

[Skypilot007]

The right people aren’t complaining enough. That’s why it never gets fixed.

Perhaps they're not complaining to the right people.

Send you complaints here and you may get some help.

Staff Directory • Burlington County, NJ • CivicEngage

 

[Steve162]

Perhaps they're not complaining to the right people.

Send you complaints here and you may get some help.

Staff Directory • Burlington County, NJ • CivicEngage

In my experience field personnel take radio performace at face value. "That's just the way it is." They regard the radio in much the same manner as a quarterback regards a football: necessary to complete the objective but otherwize unimportant.

I remember an FD in Essex County with dispatch audio so low it was nearly impossible to hear on the fireground unless you held the lapel mike or the radio itself up to your ear. Yet repeated transmissions from the filed were fine. The firefighters just shrugged and accepted it for what it was.

When I was in paramedic class the people who came in to give us our communication lecture had just come back from a mostly-liquid lunch and were quite colorful. "I turn on the APCOR and if the little amber panel light comes on then that's enough for me."

So it's no surprise that nobody's complaining about the audio.

Skypilot007 raised a good point earlier. Nobody-except for we who monitor the system- hears the tones, so there's less of an annoyance factor. It would be wonderful if they went back to dropping the transmit PL while the tones were transmitting. Then I'd get less flack from my wife!

 

[NParkNJ]

It would be wonderful if they went back to dropping the transmit PL while the tones were transmitting.

That’s how Ringwood is now setup on their PD VHF channel. Its simulcast with fire/ems dispatch. Just no tones. Done right.