CFD Apparatus status discussion (Non-Radio Information)

[JABoomer]

Inspired by a recent post from @Calgary_Fire_Filmer, I dusted off my CFD fleet plan and took a slight different view: starting from today, what would I like the fleet to look like by the time CFD hits 50 stations. I also did some design work on the proposed apparatus.

50 Engines
-Dispatch: One per station (50), permanently staffed (4 firefighters), first apparatus out to any call
-Features: Custom 2-axle chassis/cab, 180" wheelbase, 5 seats, 20" raised roof, 1,500 gpm pump, electronic pump panel, 500 gallon water tank, foam, deck gun, hose, ground ladders, generator, firefighting/medical equipment, limited rescue/HAZMAT equipment

20 Trucks (2.5 Truck to Engine ratio)
-Dispatch: Stationed throughout city (more around built-up areas), permanently staffed (4 firefighters), called out for structure fires and technical rescues
-Features: Custom 2-axle chassis/cab, 234" wheelbase, 5 seats, 10" raised roof on sides of cab, 110' ladder/platform, pre-piped waterway, ground ladders, entry/search/ventilation/overhaul/medical equipment

5 Rescues
-Dispatch: One per district (5), permanently staffed (4 firefighters), called out for rescues, major MVIs, and structure fires (RIT)
-Features: Custom 2-axle chassis/cab, 200" wheelbase, 5 seats, 20" raised roof, fold-down command desk, generator, light tower, rescue/medical equipment, limited HAZMAT equipment

4 HAZMATs
-Dispatch: One per quadrant (4), permanently staffed (4 firefighters), called out for major structure fires and HAZMAT incidents
-Features: Custom 2-axle chassis/cab, 215" wheelbase, 4 seats, 20" raised roof, walk-in body, desk, laboratory, sink, air sampling, generator, HAZMAT identification/naturalization equipment, decon hose

4 Interfaces
-Dispatch: One per quadrant (near large parks), cross-staffed with apparatus at same station, called out for brush fires, used as spare engines
-Features: Custom 2-axle chassis/cab, 168" wheelbase, 4x4, off-road ground clearance, pump and roll, 5 seats, 10" raised roof, 1,000 gpm pump, electronic pump panel, 1,000 gallon water tank, foam, front bumper monitor, ground spray nozzles, booster reels, hose, front winch, brush firefighting equipment

4 Tankers
-Dispatch: One per quadrant (near industrial areas), cross-staffed with apparatus at same station, called out for brush and industrial fires, used as spare engines
-Features: Custom 3-axle chassis/cab, 234" wheelbase, 5 seats, 20" raised roof, 2,000 gpm pump, electronic pump panel, 3,000 gallon water tank, foam, high capacity deck gun, hose, portable water tank

3 Air/Lights
-Dispatch: Stationed throughout city, permanently staffed (2 firefighters), called out to major structure fires and night time operations, resupply/fill of station air cylinders
-Features: Custom 2-axle chassis/cab, 184" wheelbase, 2 seats, spare air bottles/packs, air compressor (for station air cylinder refill), cascade air system, interior bottle fill station, lights, light towers, generators, air/power reels

2 FRP/RACs
-Dispatch: Stationed across city, permanently staffed (2 firefighters), called out to major structure fires, heavy/technical rescues, special events
-Features: Custom 2-axle chassis/cab, 215" wheelbase, 2 seats, walk-in body, slide-out, awnings, medical/rehab room, washroom, heaters/fans, tents/tables/chairs, food/water, fridge/microwave, medical equipment, decon hose

2 Fire Supports
-Dispatch: Stationed across city (one downtown), permanently staffed (1 firefighter), called out to major structure fires
-Features: Custom 2-axle chassis/cab, 215" wheelbase, 2 seats, 20" raised roof, mobile equipment (fire suppression, ventilation, salvage) totes

1 Rescue Support
-Dispatch: Central station, permanently staffed (1 firefighter), called out to heavy/technical rescues
-Features: Custom 2-axle chassis/cab, 215" wheelbase, 2 seats, 20" raised roof, heavy/technical rescue equipment

1 HAZMAT Support
-Dispatch: Central station, permanently staffed (1 firefighter), called out to major HAZMAT incidents
-Features: Custom 2-axle chassis/cab, 215" wheelbase, 2 seats, 20" raised roof, HAZMAT material removal and decontamination equipment

1 Command
-Dispatch: Stationed at headquarters, permanently staffed (1 firefighter), called out to USARs and large/extended incidents
-Features: Custom 2-axle chassis/cab, 215" wheelbase, 2 seats, 20" raised roof, walk-in body, 2 x slide-outs, communication/command/control equipment

8 Squads
-Dispatch: One per downtown station (4), cross staffed with other apparatus, called out for non-fire calls and special events; the other 4 serve as spares, if a Tower/Rescue/HAZMAT is down for maintenance, the crew will run a Squad; if an Engine is down for maintenance, the crew will run a Squad and a relocated Interface or Tanker (for fire calls); if more spares are needed, the downtown Squads are used
-Features: Commercial 5500 chassis, 188" wheelbase, 4 seats, rescue/medic equipment, limited firefighting/HAZMAT equipment

3 Water Rescues w/ Boat Trailers
-Dispatch: Stationed near waterways (3), permanently staffed (3 firefighters), called out for aquatic rescues
-Features: Commercial 5500 chassis, 188" wheelbase, 4 seats, aquatic rescue equipment, double-deck trailer, jet boat, RHIB

26 Chief/Utility
-Dispatch: Chief, two deputy chiefs, five district chiefs, four assistant chiefs (personnel, training, apparatus, facilities), three HAZMAT supervisors, three fire investigators, two K-9 units, six utility
-Features: Commercial 2500 chassis, 4 seats, Whaling Command Access Vehicle, command/control/communications equipment, PPE

2 ATV Trailers
-Dispatch: Stationed across city, called out to USARs, off-road rescues, and brush fires
-Features: Trailer with 6x6 side-by-side ATV, ATV rear bed can be equipped with firefighting skid or rescue/medical equipment



Curious if anyone has any thoughts, specifically if the spare system (replacing a down Engine with a Squad and a Interface/Tender, and replacing anything else with just a Squad - for up to 8 down apparatus) would work?

 

[ENGINE_4]

Curious if anyone has any thoughts, specifically if the spare system (replacing a down Engine with a Squad and a Interface/Tender, and replacing anything else with just a Squad - for up to 8 down apparatus) would work?

I've been meaning to do a spare fleet to active fleet post for weeks but I haven't had the time to look at everything I wanted to and make a post. Keep in mind this post is just out of genuine interest.

I have been looking at CFD and other major Canadian city's fire fleets, comparing active Engines/Ladders, etc numbers to Spare fleet numbers. Lets just stick to CFD. Calgary runs 3.2 Engines to 1 Spare. 49 Engines to 15 Spare Engines (Not including training Engines)

JABoomer, with these numbers, I don't think 8 spare Squads would work and I believe an Engine needs to be replaced with an Engine from the Spare fleet. The city and people in general will not take well to the fire department shorting them and themselves with limited equipment at a fire scene. I'm saying this because no department that I have seen runs different equipment/trucks to fill the gap of a active Engine unless they have run out of Engines (CFD and Detroit Fire have done this though as a LAST resort from time to time)

Plus the way fleets are set up, the older trucks become spares and new trucks fill there spots on the front line.

I do want to do more of a comparison with other spare fleets/active fleets. I'll post more in the coming days/weeks

Side note: One probable reason why Engine 340, 341 are not in service is because CFD can't take any more from the Spare fleet and has nothing left to give to the active Engine fleet, hence the request for 4 identical Engines on Lease. Plus would the union allow the city to push Spares into front line service? Doubtful, even though they did with Engine 43. Take a look at New York City/FDNY with there 10 front line apparatus policy though lol

 

[JABoomer]

JABoomer, with these numbers, I don't think 8 spare Squads would work and I believe an Engine needs to be replaced with an Engine from the Spare fleet. The city and people in general will not take well to the fire department shorting them and themselves with limited equipment at a fire scene.

Plus the way fleets are set up, the older trucks become spares and new trucks fill there spots on the front line.

That's fair. A down Engine would get a Squad AND either an Interface or a Tanker, so for anything that isn't a medical/rescue/HAZMAT call (where they would roll out in the Squad), the crew would still be arriving in an apparatus with water, pump, hose, and ground ladder (an Interface or Tanker). But I get your point, and it does pull the Interface and Tankers out of position. But it also reduces the number of frames that need to be road worthy at any time, and improves fleet commonality. Just a thought.

 

[RP201]

Cool fleet!

When you refer to Interface engine, do you mean an Engine with urban firefighting capability and the ability to deal with brush fires? Kinda bigger tank and maybe 4WD?

This covering stations with a Rescue, Ladder or Tender is okay for one station district, provided there are available Engines surrounding the first due. If a few Engines are out of service or dealing with an emergency, then juggling around coverage gets tricky. So, Rescues or Ladders are okay for coverage, the Tenders are another story. Tenders may have a crew of 1 or 2? Correct me if I’m wrong. Despite having water, the crew is limited. You’re not doing anything with a driver and officer/firefighter. Public and union would be much happier with a fully staffed Ladder or Rescue rolling up, providing an evaluation or scene size up, and going to work opening up.

I like the Squads running as MRU's and Rescue Support, put a small tank and pump on and you’re putting out trash fires, even car fires and grass fires. Crew of three and you’re all set!

It’s a good concept!

 

[ENGINE_4]

Atlanta (GA) Hybrid Trucks Stand In for Out of Service Aerials - Fire Apparatus: Fire trucks, fire engines, emergency vehicles, and firefighting equipment

Atlanta (GA) Hybrid Trucks Stand In for Out of Service Aerials - Fire Apparatus: Fire trucks, fire engines, emergency vehicles, and firefighting equipment - Features

www.fireapparatusmagazine.com

This is an interesting read, more older fleets and lack of money and sometimes interest in updating fleets. A problem that we will likely see more of and something that is not new, even to CFD

 

[RP201]

Atlanta (GA) Hybrid Trucks Stand In for Out of Service Aerials - Fire Apparatus: Fire trucks, fire engines, emergency vehicles, and firefighting equipment

Atlanta (GA) Hybrid Trucks Stand In for Out of Service Aerials - Fire Apparatus: Fire trucks, fire engines, emergency vehicles, and firefighting equipment - Features

www.fireapparatusmagazine.com

This is an interesting read, more older fleets and lack of money and sometimes interest in updating fleets. A problem that we will likely see more of and something that is not new, even to CFD

That’s a thought provoking read!

Basically Atlanta bought three Rescues to act as spares for Ladder trucks that are out of service.

Fire Department fleets are such a political hot potato issue, they don’t generate revenue, they cost a fortune to purchase, equip, staff and maintain. But they are absolutely necessary for society to function with the safety net they provide. So older rigs become spares at a certain time in their lives, while new equipment goes into front line service. CFD periodically moves rigs around to keep the hours and mileage even, obviously to reduce maintenance costs and try and squeeze as much out of them. This is good and bad, good to keep costs down, bad that new equipment seems to trickle in.

Back in the good old days, some FD's ran City Service Ladder trucks. Basically a cab, chassis arrangement with a ton of ground ladders on the back. They ran with three or four firefighters, two in the cab and two on the running board. Apparently there are modern versions of the City Service Ladder trucks out and about. This could be a cost effective solution to the spare crisis that seems to be hitting many services.

 

[JABoomer]

Cool fleet!

When you refer to Interface engine, do you mean an Engine with urban firefighting capability and the ability to deal with brush fires? Kinda bigger tank and maybe 4WD?

This covering stations with a Rescue, Ladder or Tender is okay for one station district, provided there are available Engines surrounding the first due. If a few Engines are out of service or dealing with an emergency, then juggling around coverage gets tricky. So, Rescues or Ladders are okay for coverage, the Tenders are another story. Tenders may have a crew of 1 or 2? Correct me if I’m wrong. Despite having water, the crew is limited. You’re not doing anything with a driver and officer/firefighter. Public and union would be much happier with a fully staffed Ladder or Rescue rolling up, providing an evaluation or scene size up, and going to work opening up.

Here's a better view hopefully:



Yes, the Interface Engines have: custom 2-axle chassis/cab, 168" wheelbase, 4x4, off-road ground clearance, pump and roll, 5 seats, 10" raised roof, 1,000 gpm pump, electronic pump panel, 1,000 gallon water tank, foam, front bumper monitor, ground spray nozzles, booster reels, hose, front winch, brush firefighting equipment

This is one example I like (although I wouldn't have rigid frame steps):



So in my spare rotation, the Interface and Tanker Engines are home stationed at stations with two other apparatus (likely an Engine and Truck). So if there's a brush fire, industrial fire, or remote fire, then 2-5 FFs jump in and go to the call. When it's used as a spare Engine, the 4 FF engine crew would move it to their station and take it on calls as needed. Both designs have 5 seats.

I will admit, I don't think I have enough spare capacity to deal with 1/4 to 1/3 of the fleet being in maintenance. But my philosophy was put more capability on the street to begin with, and use the normally crossed staffed apparatus and cheaper squads to fill the gaps, instead of having to keep a fleet of old, tired trucks alive in the spare apparatus fleet.

Atlanta (GA) Hybrid Trucks Stand In for Out of Service Aerials - Fire Apparatus: Fire trucks, fire engines, emergency vehicles, and firefighting equipment

Atlanta (GA) Hybrid Trucks Stand In for Out of Service Aerials - Fire Apparatus: Fire trucks, fire engines, emergency vehicles, and firefighting equipment - Features

www.fireapparatusmagazine.com

This is an interesting read, more older fleets and lack of money and sometimes interest in updating fleets. A problem that we will likely see more of and something that is not new, even to CFD

Nice. That's an interesting approach.

Look up Phoenix's Ladder Tenders as well, same approach, but front line.

 

[RP201]

Here's a better view hopefully:

View attachment 170440

Yes, the Interface Engines have: custom 2-axle chassis/cab, 168" wheelbase, 4x4, off-road ground clearance, pump and roll, 5 seats, 10" raised roof, 1,000 gpm pump, electronic pump panel, 1,000 gallon water tank, foam, front bumper monitor, ground spray nozzles, booster reels, hose, front winch, brush firefighting equipment

This is one example I like (although I wouldn't have rigid frame steps):

View attachment 170441

So in my spare rotation, the Interface and Tanker Engines are home stationed at stations with two other apparatus (likely an Engine and Truck). So if there's a brush fire, industrial fire, or remote fire, then 2-5 FFs jump in and go to the call. When it's used as a spare Engine, the 4 FF engine crew would move it to their station and take it on calls as needed. Both designs have 5 seats.

I will admit, I don't think I have enough spare capacity to deal with 1/4 to 1/3 of the fleet being in maintenance. But my philosophy was put more capability on the street to begin with, and use the normally crossed staffed apparatus and cheaper squads to fill the gaps, instead of having to keep a fleet of old, tired trucks alive in the spare apparatus fleet.



Nice. That's an interesting approach.

Look up Phoenix's Ladder Tenders as well, same approach, but front line.

View attachment 170442

The Phoenix Ladder Tender is an interesting idea, the whole plan is to keep costs down. The Tender carries all the same equipment as a Ladder, without the ladders. So medical calls and MVC's or really anything the officer in charge decides which rig to use. They don’t run as a two piece company, the entire crew takes the Ladder Truck or the Ladder Tender. It’s a great concept on paper and I suppose it works for them.
However, the up front capital cost… the Tender probably runs around 400K instead of 1M for a Ladder Truck. But to purchase both is a ton of money up front. I guess it keeps unnecessary mileage down on the Ladder, again if you’re out on a medical and a fire call comes in, are you running back to get the Ladder? Switching gear from one rig to another… leaving behind a helmet or mask? It could and probably happens.

Personally I like the Squad idea, CFD could replace all the Bush Buggies and MRU's with a single mini Pumper, even the parkade. (I don’t know how you can see driving in a smoke filled parking structure). Staff it with two and if CFD runs five on an Engine, the fifth person could be a “jumper” and jump on the Squad in the event of a rubbish fire or grass fire. Just a thought.

 

[RP201]

Good morning,

I was driving up (northbound) the old Deerfoot Thursday morning, and around Memorial I saw the 2024 Pierce Enforcer Volterra heading south. Sharp looking rig, however I didn’t see a number on it.

Now that same afternoon, while driving south around Blackfoot, I saw FRP 7 heading north.

So is the Volterra in service and FRP moved back to 7, or was it just training?

 

[Ghostpolice24]

Good morning,

I was driving up (northbound) the old Deerfoot Thursday morning, and around Memorial I saw the 2024 Pierce Enforcer Volterra heading south. Sharp looking rig, however I didn’t see a number on it.

Now that same afternoon, while driving south around Blackfoot, I saw FRP 7 heading north.

So is the Volterra in service and FRP moved back to 7, or was it just training?

I don't know about the Volterra, but I know that the FRP was temporarily stationed at 18 for the renovations. So, I'm assuming that's where it was going if it wasn't back at 7.

 

[255-Jacobs]

Good morning,

I was driving up (northbound) the old Deerfoot Thursday morning, and around Memorial I saw the 2024 Pierce Enforcer Volterra heading south. Sharp looking rig, however I didn’t see a number on it.

Now that same afternoon, while driving south around Blackfoot, I saw FRP 7 heading north.

So is the Volterra in service and FRP moved back to 7, or was it just training?

The Volterra was delayed even for training. According to Calgary Fire Filmer the Volterra had to go back to Pierce due to some "mechanical complications". If it's back I would guess it's back at the academy so FFs can actually get trained in it now.

 

[RP201]

The Volterra was delayed even for training. According to Calgary Fire Filmer the Volterra had to go back to Pierce due to some "mechanical complications". If it's back I would guess it's back at the academy so FFs can actually get trained in it now.

It was definitely the Volterra, side pump panel gave it away, probably out doing some driver training.

Thanks.

 

[Calgary_Fire_Filmer]

FRP is back at 7, the Volterra is not haha

 

[ENGINE_4]

Alberta Purchasing Connection

purchasing.alberta.ca

CFD will be getting 4 stock Pierce Engines - $1,050,651.00 per unit. Hopefully they will be in this year with the new Tenders and Ladders

 

[255-Jacobs]

It was awarded to our good friends at Commercial Emergency Equipment. These are the same guys who helped get us the Ladders, Towers, and soon the Tenders. There is one thought that keeps hitting me. Pierce might not be able to guarantee 4 enclosed top mount Engines. They're stock units so they won't be built to department specifications. We may very well see some side mount Engines going into service in the next few months.

 

[ENGINE_4]

I wonder with these 4 new Engines if E5008 and E4908 will be gone and the other 2 Engines will go to Engines 340 and 341. Hopefully they'll be here by summer!

 

[RP201]

This is great news! Pierce might crank out four Pumpers to CFD spec, or stock mid mount Pumps, with the panel on the driver's side. Similar to the Volterra. Hopefully on Enforcer chassis!