Cleveland National Forest New Forest Net

[krazybob]

WOW! I really thought you'd be outside enjoying the beautiful day. At any rate, what follows is the actual text from the NITC.gov website. This particular document makes clear that the u.s. forest service purchase their equipment using the same deal why contract.

NIICD Engineering and Development

P25 Digital Radios

Background

The US Congress, through the National Telecommunications and Information Agency (NTIA), has mandated that all federal government radio operations in the Very High Frequency (VHF) and Ultra High Frequency (UHF) government radio bands be "narrowbanded." The transition to narrowband channel spacing should have been accomplished by January 1, 2005 for the VHF band. The date for "narrowbanding" the UHF band was January 1, 2008. Narrowbanding means the changing from 25 kHz channel spacing to 12.5 kHz channel spacing. This effectively doubles the number of channels/frequencies available for government use in the same amount of electromagnetic spectrum.

Concurrently, new digital technologies for Land Mobile Radio (LMR) are being developed. This is being accomplished jointly among the federal government, the telecommunications industry, and the Association of Public Safety Communications Officials - International (APCO). The standard for digital LMR radio is known as "P25", "APCO Project 25" and as the Electronics Industry Association/Telecommunications Industry Association "EIA/TIA-102" standard.

At the recommendation of the Department of the Interior (DOI) Radio Liaisons, DOI decided to adopt the P25 digital radio standard as the standard for all radio purchases within DOI. DOI has also mandated that all radios/radio systems that carry law enforcement traffic comply with the EIA/TIA-102 standard which include encryption capabilities/technologies. These mandates are outlined in DOI IRM Bulletins 1998-001, 1998-002, and 1998-003.

As of October 1, 2005, the US Department of Agriculture Forest Service (USFS) has also mandated the purchase of P25 compliant radio equipment. The USFS is requiring the purchase of digital P25 radio equipment from the DOI Digital Radio contract.

DOI Narrowband Digital Radio Contract

Due to the substantial investment in digital radios, and the potential to realize significant cost savings, DOI established a multi-year, multi-vendor contract for the purchase of P25 compliant digital narrowband radio equipment. The first five-year contract was awarded on August 21, 1998. The current DOI P25 digital radio contract is currently having submitted equipment tested.

EIA/TIA-102 (P25) Functionality and Capabilities

There are numerous questions concerning the functionality and compatibility of analog radios vs. digital radios. The biggest question seems to be: "Will the new digital radio work with the current (analog) wideband and narrowband radio systems?" The answer is "yes". All P25 compliant radios are "backward" compatible with both wideband and narrowband analog radio systems. Backward compatibility refers to a P25 radio's ability to communicate with older wideband and narrowband analog technology radio systems.

P25 radios have a "multi-mode" receive function which allows the radio to be programmed to receive both analog and digital transmissions. However, if a digital channel is currently selected, most radios must be switched to an analog channel to reply in the analog mode.

Testing for the Fire and Aviation Community

As directed and chartered by the National Fire and Aviation Executive Board (formerly the National Interagency Fire Directors), the NIICD Engineering and Development Section performs the "Fire Radio Certification" testing for all of the federal wildland fire agencies. Each radio submitted under the DOI Digital Radio contract as a "fire radio" undergoes additional functionality and performance testing. This testing includes "field tests" to insure it will meet the extreme operational requirements of the wildland fire and aviation community. Once a radio has passed these additional tests, a recommendation for inclusion on the "fire certified" list is sent to each of the National Fire Directors at the National Interagency Fire Center. Once approved, the updated list is distributed throughout each director's agency.

Questions concerning the fire certification process can be directed to*NIICD's Engineer

 

[zz0468]

T...However, as previously stated, the normal day to day SB Forest LE operations are still be conducted on the Forest Admin channel--Analog/In the clear.

That's been my experience, in listening to SBNF. I hear routine LE traffic on analog, in the clear. I'm not aware of any undocumented digital channels.

 

[zz0468]

As of October 1, 2005, the US Department of Agriculture Forest Service (USFS) has also mandated the purchase of P25 compliant radio equipment. The USFS is requiring the purchase of digital P25 radio equipment from the DOI Digital Radio contract.

The verbiage requiring P25 "compliance" only means that equipment purchased under those contracts must be capable of P25 operation. There is no contractual requirement in the purchasing process that mandates that P25 be the actual operational mode used. The same is true for encryption requirements.

A radio requiring a flash upgrade and installation of an encryption board could pass as "compliant". The spirit of that language is that equipment not require disposal and replacement to implement P25. If I recall correctly, the complete P25 standard actually includes legacy analog capability.

 

[krazybob]

OK Bryan - Paul,

This is not worth arguing about. Two units on simplex in Holcomb Valley, which is an area that you folks in OC cannot hear, does not put you in a position to determine what I heard and what flashed across my radio. I live on the ridge directly above Holcomb Valley.

I understand completely that just because the requirements say that the radio be compliant does not mean it's the operational. However, given the fact that San Bernardino County Sheriff is now 100% encrypted it would not surprise me that Forest Service LE are also beginning to use encryption. Unless one of you actually works in the Comm Center down on Tippecanoe none of you including me are in a position to determine one way or another.

I have a very detailed antenna system half of which cannot be seen in this picture. The other half includes dual phased yagi's on a rotor tuned for the Forest Service. I have a commercial antenna up for each band. I use yagi's when needed. I can hear LAPD rovers on simplex usually full quieting.

What wasted time when we could be communicating in a positive manner about a hobby we share instead of cheap ship pot shots from a handful of you.

 

[1942LA]

Unless one of you actually works in the Comm Center down on Tippecanoe none of you including me are in a position to determine one way or another.

Hmm, you may be getting warm.

At the very least, someone around here may know somebody who works there.

 

[allend]

Lock one of your scanners on the USFS LE frequency in P25 for a couple of weeks and hit the record button and gather log hits and then report back and then we will all know the answer instead of going back and forth. Nobody wins in this situation. Maybe somebody needs to be the bigger person here on this site. Ususally the one that lives in the area where the USFS resides would be the right person to take on this little project and report back with the answers.

also, I think all of this frustration back and forth comes from more and more of this hobby is diving into a ditch and will never come back to life. Sad but this reality at this point.

 

[zz0468]

This is not worth arguing about. Two units on simplex in Holcomb Valley...

No one is trying to argue with you. You have a hair trigger temper, you've ALWAYS had a hair trigger temper, and you go off when no one else would. It's not fun, especially when you've stated something that's incorrect.

I made my post merely to mention that contractual language is not an indicator of what's actually out there in service. That is all.

171.7875 is a R5 common channel. It would not surprise me if SBNF LE folks use it now and then. You did make a statement indicating that SBNF LE is on P25 encrypted, but observation by myself and others here indicates that's not the case, certainly not full time. If you're going to say stuff that's wrong, it's reasonable that people will state otherwise.

If you make a blanket statement but mean you heard them once on P25, it's really helpful if you so state clearly, then there's nothing to dispute. Two units in Holcomb Valley on simplex is one thing. The entire forest LE net going P25 encrypted is quite another.

Relax. No one's out to get you. We all just want the information disseminated here to be correct.

 

[krazybob]

Lock one of your scanners on the USFS LE frequency in P25 for a couple of weeks and hit the record button and gather log hits and then report back and then we will all know the answer instead of going back and forth. Nobody wins in this situation. Maybe somebody needs to be the bigger person here on this site. Ususally the one that lives in the area where the USFS resides would be the right person to take on this little project and report back with the answers.

also, I think all of this frustration back and forth comes from more and more of this hobby is diving into a ditch and will never come back to life. Sad but this reality at this point.

I agree with you on both points Allen. Humbly said, nobody wins. I'm tired of these go rounds just because there's a couple of guys out there that don't like me. One was voted off of my TeamSpeak servers in 2003 and has held a grudge ever since. It's time that he let go of it.

I also agree that someone that actually lives in the area that is reporting certain activity record the stats and record the audio. Again I say humbly, I live on the ridge directly above. I'm at 6300 feet and I hear a lot of things on Simplex many people don't.

Let's see if we can turn this into a positive. I've long tired of trying to post with a positive attitude only to be ridiculed. I had placed two users in this thread on ignore so I can't see their replies. To me that's part of being the bigger man. If one cannot see the drama one cannot participate in it.

Respectfully and With all sincerity, have a good evening.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[allend]

What I have learned on this site is that you do not let people bait you like a fish looking for a worm on a hook. I see your setup and it looks nice with all of those antenna's.

It would be cool to see more pictures of those antennas and your outside patio setup with all of those verticals and Yagi's.

Now with all of those antenna's you must of heard something in a distance or local on P25 encrypted. I have heard some encryption on talkgroups on a TRS system before that I swear has been fully open P25 talkgroup forever and one night I was hearing encryption on that talkgroup for a couple of hours and then it went back to normal operations.

People need to realize that we are not radio comm techs for these systems. These technicians are testing in the back ground at different times and days and at odd hours.

 

[krazybob]

Thank you for understanding Allen. That has been my position here for years. I won't mention one particular user that I have placed on the ignore list that was booted from my TeamSpeak server in 2003 but he's been a pain in my side ever since and he's gathered a couple of followers.

I come here to learn and to teach when I can. I will be the first to tell you that I don't know everything there is to know and I'm not as active with all the different flavors of scanners these days. Partly because I tend to use commercial Motorola and Vertex mobiles. The only reason I have scanners are for TRS.

In this case the 12 Edward units were in Holcomb Valley. There was no disputing that because they were discussing that. The next thing I know they're encrypted. It is possible it was a distant station that just happened to have the same signal strength. Not likely.

The point remains that what I monitored was definitely encryption and as you accurately pointed out we are not comm techs for these agencies and they are making changes. Have these officers been asked to test how well the encryption works? I don't know. But for others to tell me I didn't hear what I know I heard trying to get me all worked up isn't going to work. I'm not all worked up now.

Thank you for your positive comments on my antenna system. There is a tuned antenna for each band. On VHF there are two antennas because CalFire is down as you know at 151 as a general rule, not counting tac's, and Forest Service is up at roughly 168. I originally tried cutting an antenna for 160 but that doesn't mean that you'll have 3db down on each side of it. That generally means you change the pattern or the lobes of the antenna. I really didn't think anybody be interested in my setup but because you asked I'd be happy to take more pictures and post them.

 

[allend]

I was hearing on CNF - Admin Net tonight on 171.1375 with a tone of 103.5 with Spanish Speaking on it. Sounds like its bleeding over from Mexico or something. At the end of each conversation you can hear the Motorola end tone squelch

 

[krazybob]

You're probably hearing what is called tropospheric ducting. That's where the clouds basically form a ceiling or even a tunnel and which VHF and UHF Transmissions can travel a great distance. I'm surprised based on the agreement we have with Mexico however that they would be using the same PL tone. You can try turning your attenuator on but then you'll miss Simplex traffic since they don't generally use the repeater unless they have to talk across the forest.

 

[Teotwaki]

Interesting conversation on SBNF. I appreciate the pursuit of the details on what was heard..


Jim
Orange County, CA

 

[Teotwaki]

I spent the last three days in an area of the SBNF front country. I heard routine LE traffic in analog on the repeaters. So far my guess is some LEOs used P25 in simplex but SBNF is not operating a LEO repeater of their own just yet. Maybe CNF's P25 LEO repeaters are the region's beta test and results are still being evaluated?

What was far more interesting for me was a chance meetup with a California Fish & Wildlife LEO. Super nice guy. If I should meet him again I'll try to scope out his radio setup. I didn't want to seem too nosy on the first encounter, lol. I won't publish where he was and what he was up to but if anyone wants to PM me I can share.

 

[krazybob]

There is a LEO repeater on Santiago, Mountain Center, Elsinore Peak and Strawberry Peak. I cannot comment as to whether or not these are P25 data but I would believe that they upgraded all of their system several years ago and that update included P25. They've had the capability for some time. Depending on the weather the San Bernardino Mountains don't get used as much this time of year as the Cleveland. The temperature is alone are not conducive to daytime hikers.

California Fish and Wildlife use the Statewide VHF repeater system. I'm not going to pull the manual out and tell you where they're at because I'm sure you can pull them up just as quickly. As of current they're still analog. I don't monitor daily and it may have changed.

As far as being peace officers, which was not asked, they outrank California State Park Rangers. I mention this because of an episode of Game Wardens that I watched wherein a wildlife officer was assigned to work with a state park ranger at Lake Silverwood. I found myself irritated during a scene where a teenage boy was fishing without a license and couldn't even figure out what his date of birth was supposed to be for his age to not need a fishing license (16). The part that got me was when the park ranger told the young man that if he didn't comply the game warden was going to write him a ticket for fishing without a license and then he was going to arrest him for obstruction. The game warden just stood back and didn't say a thing even though he's a full-time peace officer and the park ranger only has the authority went on duty. I wonder if there was any conversation off camera about stepping on your partner's pee pee.

An interesting situation about game wardens up here in Big Bear. When Christopher Dorner was on his rampage it was actually the game wardens that observed him traveling eastbound on Big Bear Boulevard. They flipped a U-turn and went into pursuit. They had him trapped on Seven Oaks Road that makes a circle and came back out the same way and laid down .308 rounds into his engine compartment and failed to stop him. But they were fully engaged in law enforcement.

The point on getting to is that here in the San Bernardino's there doesn't seem to be a rivalry, not that one was mentioned, between the Sheriff's Deputies, CHP, Game Wardens, Federal LEO's, and to a lesser extent the Park Rangers. This one you seemed to have a bad attitude and a strong ego. Whenever an AOD - assist other department - call goes out everyone responds until a code 4 is put it out. CHP frequently responds to domestics in progress when no SO units are available. SO regularly response to Federal LEOs when they call for a backup.

The overall point I'm getting to is that none of these has interoperability. CHP is on low band, Game Wardens are on high band along with Federal LEO's, Park Rangers are on 800, and SO is on 700/800. So much for interoperability. An observation I've made for example is when SO request assistance from CHP the particulars take 3 - 5 minutes to go from dispatcher to dispatcher to units.

 

[Teotwaki]

There is a LEO repeater on Santiago, Mountain Center, Elsinore Peak and Strawberry Peak. ----snip----.

Bob,

Elsinore Peak and Strawberry Peak have the same standard input tone of 131.8 Hz so how could you have a R5 LEO repeater on both peaks with the same frequency pair and tones?

What site is "Mountain Center"? I am drawing a blank so I either don't know that name or know the mountain peak by a different name. WHat other repeaters are there??

From my information the only LEO repeaters I have tones and locations for are all in CNF. Verified by CNF LEO units announcing to dispatch the tone they were using.


Tone 2 123.0 NAC 4CE Santiago Peak.

Tone 5 146.2 NAC 5B6 Cuyamaca Peak

Tone 6 136.5 NAC 555 High Point (Palomar)


Jim
Orange County, CA

 

[Teotwaki]

===
People need to realize that we are not radio comm techs for these systems. These technicians are testing in the back ground at different times and days and at odd hours.

That is why I like to note where the USFS comms techs are working and what they talk about. Lots of good information to help puzzle out the radio systems.

 

[zz0468]

Bob,What site is "Mountain Center"? I am drawing a blank so I either don't know that name or know the mountain peak by a different name. WHat other repeaters are there??

Mountain Center is a community, but not a radio site. I believe that there is a ranger station there. Nearby radio sites are Thomas Mountain, and Marion Ridge.

 

[Teotwaki]

Mountain Center is a community, but not a radio site. I believe that there is a ranger station there. Nearby radio sites are Thomas Mountain, and Marion Ridge.

Thank you! So there definitely will not be a LEO repeater at Mountain Center.

Jim
Orange County, CA

 

[krazybob]

Mountain Center is Pine Cove off of the 243 in an area known as Idyllwild. Since that is actually the San Bernardino National Forest. Santiago has two tones.

San Bernardino has sites on Rodman (T12), Quartzite (T1), Cajon (T2), Bertha (T5), Strawberry(T3), San Sevaine (T9), Keller (T4), Onyx (T6), Tahquitz (T11), Black (T8), Pine Cove (T14), Santiago (T13), Toro (T7), and a second on Santiago (T2), a second on Cajon (T3), a second on Onyx (T6).

Cleveland has sites on Sierra (T1), Santiago (T2), Ortega (T6), Elsinore (T3), Sitton Peak (T10), High Point (T4), Boucher (T8), Black Mtn. (T11), Cuyamaca (T5), Los Pinos (T7), and Lyons Peak (T9).

This information comes out of the Region 5 frequency guide, USDA, Forest Service, Pacific southwest region, FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY

To receive a copy of this guide, please contact the U.S. Forest Service Emergency Command Center (ECC) nearest you.