Digital Scanners

[mark2117]

Soooo if I decided to get a digital scanner in the near future would anyone by any chance know the frequencies for the Prince Albert Police Department? Is there any point of getting a digital scanner since FleetNet is coming down next year? What would be the best digital scanner for me to get? (I currently own 1 scanner; BC246T)

It would be even better if someone with a digital scanner could swing down here so I can find out if they're (the police) encrypted therefore no money would be wasted.

 

[richster]

Hi Mark,

If Prince Albert Police are on Fleetnet as you say, then buying a digital scanner is a no-go.

Sasktel Fleetnet is a 9600 baud EDACS GE/Ericsson (now MA/COM) trunking system. Digital comms on this system will probably be PROVOICE digital, and not APCO25.

There is no digital scanner made right now that will pickup PROVOICE unfortunatley. All the digital scanners out on the market right now are only capable of decoding APCO25 digital transmissions.

So if they are indeed on Fleetnet, do not get a digital scanner.

Is there going to be a PROVOICE EDACS capable scanner made? Well in the "Scanning Forum" there is a sticky on that very subject. Interesting reading!

Regards,
Richster.

 

[mark2117]

But yeah thats the thing, I don't know for sure what system they are using. Thats why I'm inquiring. And if they are on FleetNet wouldn't I still pick up that digital noise while I'm doing my regular ID Searching on FleetNet?

 

[RBerezowski]

But yeah thats the thing, I don't know for sure what system they are using. Thats why I'm inquiring. And if they are on FleetNet wouldn't I still pick up that digital noise while I'm doing my regular ID Searching on FleetNet?

The last I heard several years ago was that PA Police were on Fleetnet. That might have changed though. Perhaps they've moved to their own system? I have no idea.

With a scanner you should still be able to hear the digital noise of the PA Police on the Fleetnet, if they are there. The best time to listen would be in the evening and night hours, when most other system users have gone home. If you don't hear them on Fleetnet, perhaps try other trunked systems, or perhaps conventional frequency searching.

Take a look at the antennas on a PA Police car. The size and type of antenna will tell you what band they are using. Also, see if you can get a look at the type of radio they use. Perhaps you can get a close enough eyeball on one of their portables. If they are Ericsson or GE radios, then they are probably still on Fleetnet. A make and model number for the radios would be perfect.

However, I would echo Rich's comments, don't bother buying a digital scanner until you locate the PA Police, and can establish whether they are on Fleetnet, or not, and if not if they are using digital. There's a good liklihood the digital portion of the digital scanner will be useless, and you will have wasted your money.

Rob

 

[mark2117]

Yeah its pretty much trial and error I guess, I just wish there was someone close by with a digital scanner that could come on down to P.A. and try it out. I was reading on saskatoonscanner.com that they have recently upgraded to a digital scanner. I wonder if the person who runs that has any trips to P.A. planned anytime soon...

 

[RBerezowski]

Yes, it is trial and error. It will take some patience, but having a digital scanner won't help very much. You can do a lot with an analog scanner, some patience, searching both the Fleetnet and other systems, and some eyeballing of some of the PA Police radios. That's what the hobby is all about. Once you narrow it down and if you think they're digital on a Motorola system, then you bring in the digital scanner.

One thing is to try searching the 800 MHz band for trunked and non-trunked systems, especially the 866-869 MHz range. Any systems found there that aren't listed on the Industry Canada TAFL site are probably police.

Rob

 

[mark2117]

If I got their frequencies with Close Call would that bring me any closer to finding out if they are encyrpted? Is there a difference in sound between just digital freqs and digital encrypted freqs?

 

[richster]

If I got their frequencies with Close Call would that bring me any closer to finding out if they are encyrpted? Is there a difference in sound between just digital freqs and digital encrypted freqs?

Haven't found them yet huh? Well I don't know what to add to what has already been explained by Rob.

Close Call is a very powerful feature, and works very well especially at night when the floor noise is down.

Try this, it should work.

Put the 246T in "Close Call Only" mode, and have it save the frequency when it finds a new hit.

Now just go find a traffic stop. I'm 99% sure the frequency you will see will be in the low 800Mhz (806Mhz-820Mhz). If you do see a frequency in the low 800Mhz, this will be the INPUT frequency. Just add 45Mhz to get the repeater frequency. If you hear digtial noise then they are digital, if you hear voices then they are analog.

EXAMPLE: You see = 814.1125. Repeater freqeuncy will be 859.1125.

When you do calculate the repeater frequency, check it to see if it is one of the FLEETNET frequencies. If it is then they are on FLEETNET. If you also hear digital noise, then they are PROVOICE and you are SOL unfortunately. No scanner can pick up provoice digital.

Have you done an ID-Search on the FLEETNET system ??? Have you heard digital noise coming from any TG's ??? It sounds like your squelch has just opened up and all you hear is "white noise".

I'm really surprised you haven't found them on FLEETNET. But you will find out where they are when you get a Close Call hit from them.

Don't worry about encryption yet, find them first then worry about encryption.

Try this at night time after 6pm to avoid false hits by other comms like pagers and couriers.

Just last night I was getting Close Call hits from a UHF Ham Repeater (VE5-UHF) 3 miles away!! I was quite surprised how good Close Call works.

Regards,
Richster.

 

[mark2117]

When I turn my scanner on its always in "ID Search" mode, I heard a digital comm on FleetNet for the first time 2 days ago coming from 12-124. That's the first and only time I've heard anything digital on FleetNet.

 

[richster]

When I turn my scanner on its always in "ID Search" mode, I heard a digital comm on FleetNet for the first time 2 days ago coming from 12-124. That's the first and only time I've heard anything digital on FleetNet.

Well that's most likely them. I'm sure if you ever get a Close Call hit from a cruiser it will be between 813Mhz and 820Mhz. Unfortunatley that means they are PROVOICE, and no scanner will convert that digital mode back to analog yet.

The RCMP are supposedly moving to a new system after 2006, some say in the 700Mhz somewhere. Lets hope it's APCO-25, this way you will be able to listen to them UNLESS they go encrypted.

Regards,
Richster.

 

[mark2117]

Does a PROVOICE digital comm sound different from just a regular digital comm?

 

[richster]

Does a PROVOICE digital comm sound different from just a regular digital comm?

I don't know, because I have never heard an actual PROVOICE signal before. The closest PROVOICE system is in Edmonton.

If the digital comm is encrypted you might hear a "high pitch" chirp at the end of each comm, but I'm not sure with PROVOICE transmissions. It is however very unlikely the are encrypted because again PROVOICE cannot be picked up by scanners, so why encrypt?

There are two guys on this forum from Edmonton. Edmscan and Matteblack. They would be able to tell you all you want to know about PROVOICE. I think a while back Matteblack was trying to get a LPE-200 to work on a PROVOICE system, I'm not sure if he was successful or not.

Try sending them a PM, they're very knowledgable and always willing to help.

Regards,
Richster.

 

[mark2117]

Alright so get this, Tonight I get home from work and flip my scanner on and seeing its Friday there will probably be more radio chatter than usual. When my scanner is on its ALWAYS on "ID Search" just in case new TGIDs pop-up that I don't have saved. I haven't got any new ones lately but tonight I keep getting hits from 14-041 which sound very much like police. It's an hour later and I'm almost 100% sure its city police, the thing is though that I can only hear the dispatcher. So the last I heard the Prince Albert City Police were completely digital, is it possible that it can be switched off or is something wrong with the dispatchers radio? I have no idea what going on and I don't know what to think of this. I can understand only hearing one side on conventional but this is EDACS. :?

 

[electricsheep]

Does a PROVOICE digital comm sound different from just a regular digital comm?

I don't know, because I have never heard an actual PROVOICE signal before. The closest PROVOICE system is in Edmonton. ,
Richster.

A provoice signal sounds like modulated digital static. In fact it sounds almost identical to the RCMP apco 25 digital and DES encrypted signals we get around here.

There is also no difference in how Provoice conventional and Provoice trunked signals on the LCNs sound. There is also no difference in how a Provoice encrypted signal sounds either. So even when you have a Provoice CAPABLE system in your neck of the woods, you can not find out what talkgroups or frequencies are encrypted and which ones are not. Trunker just shows them as digital, with no different sign that they are encrypted or unencrypted. Provoice is tight, and that is why public safety agencies like it.

As for decoding Provoice, there are no scanners, and never will be, that can decode it, this is just the reality of the world we now live in.

 

[electricsheep]

...but tonight I keep getting hits from 14-041 which sound very much like police. It's an hour later and I'm almost 100% sure its city police, the thing is though that I can only hear the dispatcher. So the last I heard the Prince Albert City Police were completely digital, is it possible that it can be switched off or is something wrong with the dispatchers radio? I have no idea what going on and I don't know what to think of this. I can understand only hearing one side on conventional but this is EDACS. :?

I have encountered this before. It happens out here when they have two talkgroups patched together, one that is digital, and one that is not. I have also seen it happen when digital is optional in a talkgroup and someone decides to be a rebel and go analog. It happens, but very very rarely. Honestly, I usually find that the fire and ems talkgroups can give you more or as much information from what is going down at incidents as they are much less "guarded" in what they speak about on the radio... especially when it isn't them they are talking about.

 

[RBerezowski]

Alright so get this, Tonight I get home from work and flip my scanner on and seeing its Friday there will probably be more radio chatter than usual. When my scanner is on its ALWAYS on "ID Search" just in case new TGIDs pop-up that I don't have saved. I haven't got any new ones lately but tonight I keep getting hits from 14-041 which sound very much like police. It's an hour later and I'm almost 100% sure its city police, the thing is though that I can only hear the dispatcher. So the last I heard the Prince Albert City Police were completely digital, is it possible that it can be switched off or is something wrong with the dispatchers radio? I have no idea what going on and I don't know what to think of this. I can understand only hearing one side on conventional but this is EDACS. :?

It's either a failure in a radio, or someone has switched a radio from analog to digital. I know that 14-045 is Prince Albert Fire, so there's a pretty good chance that 14-041 is Prince Albert Police. I can't confirm that though. Enjoy the listening while you can, it might not last forever.

Rob

 

[mark2117]

So since I am able to hear them now with digital switched to analog, does that mean that they are NOT encrypted when they are digital?

 

[RBerezowski]

So since I am able to hear them now with digital switched to analog, does that mean that they are NOT encrypted when they are digital?

Probably, but no guarantees. There's no way to be sure based on what we think may be an equipment failure or an operator error. The failure or fault may affect both digitization and encryption.

Besides, even if the PA Police are not digital encrypted, it doesn't help much. We still don't have a scanner that can demodulate the EDACS digital ProVoice.

Rob

 

[electricsheep]

So since I am able to hear them now with digital switched to analog, does that mean that they are NOT encrypted when they are digital?

Probably, but no guarantees. There's no way to be sure based on what we think may be an equipment failure or an operator error. The failure or fault may affect both digitization and encryption.

Besides, even if the PA Police are not digital encrypted, it doesn't help much. We still don't have a scanner that can demodulate the EDACS digital ProVoice.

Rob

I agree, chasing the provoice monkey does nothing but frustrate you... As soon as you get stuck with a provoice system in your neck of the woods, unless you have almost endless supplies of money, time, really hot law enforcement/radio industry insider links and technical expertise, you are not going to get anywhere near the damn thing and you best start searching for other things to listen to. This holds true especially when they then not only go provoice, but provoice DES encrypted as has apparently happened in this area more often than not lately from what I hear...

Just be happy there are ANY analog or digital systems out there that we can monitor.

Discover the joys of ACARS or something... HF metar data decoding! AIS ship plotting on the prairies, or something equally obscure. Heh...

 

[mark2117]

I just wish someone with a digital scanner could swing down here and see if they can pick up the Prince Albert Police Service or even borrow a digital scanner for a couple days hahaha....