Encryption

[ofd8001]

Bloomington will be on Hennepin East as their default affiliation. There are several towers in Bloomington, including one near Fort Snelling,

The only way you would hear them on City Center, Dakota, Carver, etc. is if a Bloomington unit is roaming into those areas and is affiliated with those sites. An infrequent occurrence I imagine.

 

[AAFC]

I monitor Bloomington PD on the Hennepin east system. I live within a mile or two of a Hennepin east tower (in Bloomington) and I've been listening to Bloomington with my current setup for many years without any issues. But lately (the last few days) Bloomington radio traffic seems unusually quiet. I am wondering if the Police department has really been that slow, of if maybe some squad and/or handheld police radios have switched to encryption? Is it even possible to have some radios on the same talk group encrypted, while others are not? I hear some normal dispatch calls, but they seem far and few between.... I have one scanner dedicated to ONLY Bloomington Police, and I've been listening like this for several years so I feel like I have a good idea what "normal" radio traffic should be, but it seems like there has been considerably less radio traffic on the BPD main talk group lately.

Thanks to everyone who has replied!

 

[AAFC]

Update: It appears that Bloomington PD main dispatch is NOT encrypted yet. I still hear normal dispatch calls on the main talk group on a regular basis. Overall radio traffic still seems lighter than "normal" but then again, maybe it's that time of year? On a side note: I just read an article in the Bloomington news paper.... on March 26th the city's PD implemented a brand new body camera system for all officers. The new body camera system also inclues new squad car cameras (body cams and squad cams work together as a system) the total up front startup cost was $407,000 but the city received a grant from the Department of Justice for nearly 200,000 to help offset the costs. Maybe this recent camera system expense will hold off the purchase of new radios capable of full encryption??? As a tax payer in Bloomington, I hope so.... No need for full encryption, it's simply a "money grab" for Motorola.

 

[citiot]

Maybe this recent camera system expense will hold off the purchase of new radios capable of full encryption??? As a tax payer in Bloomington, I hope so.... No need for full encryption, it's simply a "money grab" for Motorola.

Contact your city council. Can't hurt. Just a short email. Contact the local paper and state that they will not be able to hear police calls. I did that in my city. Only thing lost is about 5 minutes of your time.

 

[AAFC]

Contact your city council. Can't hurt. Just a short email. Contact the local paper and state that they will not be able to hear police calls. I did that in my city. Only thing lost is about 5 minutes of your time.

Not a bad idea but I highly doubt it will make a difference. Most of the surrounding cities and counties are already making the switch to encryption, so to think I could stop one of the largest cities in the state from follow the "herd" would be nothing but wishful thinking.

 

[citiot]

Not a bad idea but I highly doubt it will make a difference. Most of the surrounding cities and counties are already making the switch to encryption, so to think I could stop one of the largest cities in the state from follow the "herd" would be nothing but wishful thinking.

If a bunch of people do it, it increases the chance. One thing for sure, discussing it here will make no difference.

The "press" aspect along with a simple letter to city council might change the course. In Scott county, they are slated to switch over in 2022 (or 2023). Pushback now, might be effective. One of my city council people balked when I mentioned that there is a cost. He agreed that openness is important and cost control is import.

 

[AAFC]

If a bunch of people do it, it increases the chance. One thing for sure, discussing it here will make no difference.

I never expected the duscusion in this thread to make a difference. I was simply asking what others have heard about encryption, the topic of this thread..... then I posted a side note about body cameras.

The "press" aspect along with a simple letter to city council might change the course. In Scott county, they are slated to switch over in 2022 (or 2023). Pushback now, might be effective. One of my city council people balked when I mentioned that there is a cost. He agreed that openness is important and cost control is import.

I just sent my council member an email asking about the city's plans if/when they plan to go encrypted. I also expressed my concerns about cost and the tax payer's ability to monitor crime in the city. I will post if/when I get a reply.

Thanks.

 

[stmills]

I think expressing your concerns on lack of transparency is a great move, reading the minutes from many city council meetings where this was just rubber stamped with no real discussion. I would be cautious about the cost factor as this may actually detract from the point on transparency, and encryption is needed for many incidents and will be needed for interoperability. Many cities actually replaced radios ahead of scheduled replacement because Motorola was offering a significant discount on purchases made by a specific date.

 

[citiot]

I think expressing your concerns on lack of transparency is a great move, reading the minutes from many city council meetings where this was just rubber stamped with no real discussion. I would be cautious about the cost factor as this may actually detract from the point on transparency, and encryption is needed for many incidents and will be needed for interoperability. Many cities actually replaced radios ahead of scheduled replacement because Motorola was offering a significant discount on purchases made by a specific date.

I emailed all the press tip lines also. To them, one person is a kook, two a trend, three a story.

Yes, interoperability is a big one. Oh, AAFC, sorry if my tone came through wrong. Awesome job with your emails

whistleblower@startribune.com
katy.read@startribune.com
tom.lyden@foxtv.com
news@pioneerpress.com

 

[AAFC]

I understand cost is not the only deciding factor. As original P25 radios break and need to be replaced, or as Police departments expand and need to add radios, obviously buying the latest and greatest radio makes sense.

I certainly hope Motorola was offering a "discount"! According to a friend of mine who is a sergeant for a south metro Police department, Motorola told all their customers originally that all P25 radios would eventually be capable of encryption.... fast forward 7-10 years and Motorola changed their story and all radios will now need to be replaced to enable encryption. The city that my cop friend works for was pretty upset that hundreds of thousands of dollars in Police radios the manufaturer told them would be capable, is now useless if they want encryption. It's no surprise though.... Motorola is in the business of selling radios. It just sucks they had to lie about it.

As for interoperability..... if the system did not include encryption at all, then nobody would need it. Encryption itself is not required for interoperability. The Minnesota ARMER system would still function without it. But now that some radios on the ARMER system are using it. . . . . (you get where this is going) Thinking encryption is a necessity, is exactly how a radio manufacturer would want it's customers to think. And no, I'm not saying to completely do away with encryption.

Currently, it seems that all sensitive info on the BPD main talk group is either sent digitally to squad car computer screens, or verbally over cell phones. They've been doing it this way for decades now, why would they need to change?

I do NOT have a problem with detective units, or other police units were secure communication is needed. I simply want to keep the police (and fire) main dispatch talkgroups open so the tax paying public can monitor crime in their neighborhoods.

Good job on sending emails to the press tip lines. I will send them some emails tomorrow when I get a few minutes.

I will post if/when I hear back from the city council member.

Thanks

 

[stmills]

The Xts series of radios which are now being upgraded to the APX had encryption as an option- add on board and flash upgrade required. The XTS series went out of production over 4 years ago as later in 2019 the five year support window ends on the XTS Radios. The ARMER system did not fully support encryption from dispatch consoles until one of the last upgrades. The encryption that is included in all Motorola radios is not DES etc it is a Motorola specific encryption, DES is an add on. Prior to moving to ARMER many units were already using encryption.
I believe dispatch Mains should remain Encryption free, along with that as much as I miss listening to my local car to Car channels- the amount of tactical incident response info on there makes it an officer safety issue to be in the clear.

 

[citiot]

DES is the state of the art?

 

[AAFC]

The Xts series of radios which are now being upgraded to the APX had encryption as an option- add on board and flash upgrade required. The XTS series went out of production over 4 years ago as later in 2019 the five year support window ends on the XTS Radios. The ARMER system did not fully support encryption from dispatch consoles until one of the last upgrades. The encryption that is included in all Motorola radios is not DES etc it is a Motorola specific encryption, DES is an add on. Prior to moving to ARMER many units were already using encryption.
I believe dispatch Mains should remain Encryption free, along with that as much as I miss listening to my local car to Car channels- the amount of tactical incident response info on there makes it an officer safety issue to be in the clear.

Well, it's obvious that you know FAR more technical info than I do about the ARMER system. lolol. All of that info is great but the bottom line is the Police don't "need" encryption on the dispatch mains. They've never had it, and there is no need for it now. That is all....

 

[stmills]

Police don't "need" encryption on the dispatch mains. They've never had it, and there is no need for it now

Agree 100% with this !

 

[wogggieee]

All of that info is great but the bottom line is the Police don't "need" encryption on the dispatch mains. They've never had it, and there is no need for it now. That is all....

I suspect the increasing amount of their audio ending up on the news, especially in incidents like Philando Castille, has made them rather paranoid about what might be said. The absolutely do not need dispatch mains to be encrypted. The idea that they're pushing for less transparency while the public is pushing for more should be concerning to everyone.

 

[citiot]

I suspect the increasing amount of their audio ending up on the news, especially in incidents like Philando Castille, has made them rather paranoid about what might be said. The absolutely do not need dispatch mains to be encrypted. The idea that they're pushing for less transparency while the public is pushing for more should be concerning to everyone.

Plan for interop in Scott County are unencrypted (during the incident). Imagine a few years in the future... with officers "used to" encryption during 99.9999% of their day-to-day operations... the chatter will evolve (devolve?) to less formal talk because they assume they are "safe" with encryption. A long term interop incident will occur, comms in the clear, and the recorders will be recording. There will be some "doozies" in the press.

Also, how to you encrypt the sound coming out of a speaker? Of course you can't. People will overhear confidential information that is now handled via cell and terminal. e.g. "key code in you incident" will become "keycode is 1234." i.e. everyone in a donut shop, restaurant... anywhere where officers are among the public will hear.

Encryption will be touted as a gain in the control of non-public information, but in actuality, more will be disclosed.

 

[citiot]

...The idea that they're pushing for less transparency while the public is pushing for more should be concerning to everyone.

How do we leverage this? Just to put it out there.... point our encryption to groups/organizations that represent the disenfranchised.

Again, a quick email to those orgs might put pressure to change the course. I'm going to to nose around and see.

 

[wogggieee]

Also, how to you encrypt the sound coming out of a speaker? Of course you can't. People will overhear confidential information that is now handled via cell and terminal. e.g. "key code in you incident" will become "keycode is 1234." i.e. everyone in a donut shop, restaurant... anywhere where officers are among the public will hear.

I don't really see that as being a real concern. The number or people within ear shot is limited and the number of people who are actively trying to listen and will understand whats happening is even smaller and the number of those people who are recording will be smaller yet.

 

[wogggieee]

How do we leverage this? Just to put it out there.... point our encryption to groups/organizations that represent the disenfranchised.

Again, a quick email to those orgs might put pressure to change the course. I'm going to to nose around and see.

Talk to anyone and everyone about it. Though I tend to be pessimistic and think the train has probably left the station on this.

 

[citiot]

Talk to anyone and everyone about it. Though I tend to be pessimistic and think the train has probably left the station on this.

I will, and I hope others do as well. Not so sure the train has left. Example, plans for total E in Scott county are for changeover in 2022 (or 3). Budgets are not set in stone yet. It is said that some of the smaller cities in Scott county are balking at the cost of new radios.

I think a good strategy to get the attention of the purse holders is a short email about cost. Just a little bit of noise from several people might alter the course of the train.