stingray327
Member
Do CCR put out more wattage on GMRS than the certifified radios?
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GMRS Handheld
- Thread starter Jmar1978
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mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
The claims seem to be all over the place, so it would depend on the exact models. Also, the claims from the CCR manufacturers would need to be confirmed with a wattmeter and 50Ω load, as they tend to run a little free and loose with the specifications.
-Most- of the commercial portables are going to do 4 watts. A few will do 5. But we all know that power output does not necessarily equal more range. You'll get much better performance with a good radio with a proper antenna, and most importantly, good receivers on each end.
DeepBlue
Member
I am wondering if the certification process looks at things like the removable antenna thing or if it just certifies spectral purity, etc. If the later is the case, even if they pass testing they would still be illegal to use based on the fact that you can swap off the antenna for a larger one, higher gain, add an amp, etc. Comments?
EDIT- Looking over the 95e section it seems that if it passes the section it already would meet the requirements of the section including the things I quoted earlier - no Digital capability on 467MHz, no removable antennas, etc. I would be curious to find a "certified" unit with a removable antenna. I think some companies claim Part 90 and use that as a sort of blanket when it really doesn't apply to specific services.
Sean
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mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
The type certification process involves making sure the device meets all the rules of the part it's being certified under. For GMRS/95E, that means frequency capability, power, emission type, bandwidth limitations, etc.
But the whole process is done outside the FCC. Manufacturers can either do the testing internally or hire a lab, to do the certification testing and file the paperwork.
The FCC certifies the lab. If the certification paperwork comes from an approved lab, then it usually just gets rubber stamped and sent on it's way.
Unfortunately, there are some labs/companies that don't really care what the FCC thinks. They'll submit results of testing and claim it meets the 95E requirements. Some knucklehead at the FCC rubber stamps it and lets it go. There's been instances of the FCC approving a radio even though the testing shows it doesn't meet the requirements.
In other words, the FCC has let the manufacturers run the show.
Most companies are honest, but some are not. China and the Chinese manufacturers don't really care about the RF landscape in the USA, all they want is to sell shiploads of cheap radios as fast as they can.
And then the consumer public doesn't know what they are doing either, they just buy crap on line "assuming" it's OK.
But there's a lot to it.
GMRS can have removable antennas. FRS can't.
Radios, in certain services, can be certified under multiple services. In other radio services (MURS, FRS, etc) they can only be certified under one.
Yeah, some choose to use Part 90 radios. That's an interesting question. The FCC rewrote the GMRS rules a few years back and they are aware of this. However, they chose not to change the requirements. The way it's worded can be misinterpreted by those that really want to, to say that as long as it meets the requirements, it's OK, doesn't matter what the certification is on the radio. Then there are those that toe the line and will only use radios that are Part 95E certified.
And then there are those that don't care and will use whatever radio they can trick into working on the frequencies. A few well established cases of amateurs (who really should know better) modifying amateur radios to transmit out of band. They tend to treat GMRS as their playground. And like I said, they don't care, will often use their amateur call signs on GMRS frequencies.
As I've mentioned in other posts, I'm NOT the radio police and I don't really care what others do as long as none of it splatters on me, but there are a lot of issues that people don't think about when using the wrong radios in the wrong places.
But that's a whole different discussion.
DeepBlue
Member
Per the FCC regs, GMRS hand hels apparenty cannot have removable antennas.
§95.1787 GMRS additional requirements.
Each hand-held portable unit transmitter type submitted for certification under this subpart is subject to the rules in this section.
(a) Digital data transmissions. GMRS hand-held portable units that have the capability to transmit digital data must be designed to meet the following requirements.
(1) Digital data transmissions must only be initiated by a manual action by the operator, except that GMRS units may automatically respond with location data upon receiving an interrogation request from another GMRS or FRS unit.
(2) Digital data transmissions must not exceed one second in duration.
(3) Digital data transmissions must not be sent more frequently than one digital data transmission within a thirty-second period, except that a GMRS unit may automatically respond to more than one interrogation request received within a thirty-second period.
(4) The antenna must be a non-removable integral part of the GMRS unit.
(5) GMRS units must not be capable of transmitting digital data on the 467 MHz main channels.
(b) [Reserved]
This is the one thing that hangs up a lot of Chinese radios wanting to be used as GMRS.
Sean
§95.1787 GMRS additional requirements.
Each hand-held portable unit transmitter type submitted for certification under this subpart is subject to the rules in this section.
(a) Digital data transmissions. GMRS hand-held portable units that have the capability to transmit digital data must be designed to meet the following requirements.
(1) Digital data transmissions must only be initiated by a manual action by the operator, except that GMRS units may automatically respond with location data upon receiving an interrogation request from another GMRS or FRS unit.
(2) Digital data transmissions must not exceed one second in duration.
(3) Digital data transmissions must not be sent more frequently than one digital data transmission within a thirty-second period, except that a GMRS unit may automatically respond to more than one interrogation request received within a thirty-second period.
(4) The antenna must be a non-removable integral part of the GMRS unit.
(5) GMRS units must not be capable of transmitting digital data on the 467 MHz main channels.
(b) [Reserved]
This is the one thing that hangs up a lot of Chinese radios wanting to be used as GMRS.
Sean
n1das
Member
There are 2 ways that I interpret this section. One is that 95.1787 applies to GMRS handhelds that are digital data capable in which case they operate as FRS in this mode. The non-removable antenna requirement is part of FRS. Digital data such as location data transmitted by a Garmin Rino radio does this only on the original 14 FRS channels IIRC and meets all other technical requirements for FRS in this mode. My other interpretation is that the non-removable antenna requirement applies to all GMRS handhelds whether data capable or not and essentially reduces GMRS to a bubble pack only service. *SIGHE*
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mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
I think you're right on here. Also notice that digital transmissions can't be used on repeater inputs. While not very clearly spelled out, Id gather that the intent is to keep digital transmission short ranged given the requirements of a non detachable antenna and no use of repeaters.
n1das
Member
I recall this originated from Garmin getting a waiver from the FCC to allow transmitting GPS location data on the original 14 FRS channels. The equipment used was required to meet all technical requirements of (the original 14-channel) FRS.
bill4long
Member
You are incorrectly reading this section. (4) is a subparagraph of (a), and pertains only to radios capable of digital data transmissions, not radios that simply do analog voice. The CCRs that have been certified by the FCC, such as the BTech GMRS-V1, are indeed legal. Here is the FCC pages for the GMRS-V1:
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That sounds familiar. I think it's a good requirement though. Just this last weekend I heard a bunch of little kids doing typical kid stuff with what I assume to be bubble pack radios. They must have been in the neighborhood because I could hear them on the output freq of one of the local GMRS repeaters. Adding the data stuff would be that much worse, especially when they older and try to see how far they can communicate. I know because I would have done the same thing.
I'm not disagreeing with you at all, but I do have a question. Why would Part 90 radios not be acceptable on Part 95/GMRS? It doesn't seem to stand to reason (IMHO) that a part 90 radio that meets the power, etc., requirements wouldn't be acceptable on GMRS. As you eluded to, I've heard many say that any Part 90 radio would be fine on GMRS, including a radio shop guy...which I know doesn't make it the gospel but you know what I mean.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
I think that's an excellent question for the FCC.
The only thing stopping a radio manufacturer from applying for Part 95E acceptance on a radio is the cost of doing the paperwork.
As for the FCC, they rewrote the rules a few years back and could have easily written that in, but they didn't. Again, a good question for the FCC.
bill4long
Member
A lot of people would like to know the answer to that. Maybe if a lot of people hammered the FCC with a petition they would change it. But there may be some politics and payola involved. Maybe the folks at the FCC are just lazy. Maybe the radio manufacturers are too cheap to apply for part 95 certification, or there's just not enough money in it. Perhaps a dozen other reasons are imaginable.
The reality is, lots of people are using Part 90 radios on GMRS. Illegal? Yes. Does the FCC wander the streets looking for violators? Hah! No. The pragmatic reality is that it's a non-issue. The FCC is a complaint-driven agency, so unless you're causing harmful interference to an important service and/or getting a lot of complaints against you, there is nothing to worry about. Personally, if I were going to use a Part 90 radio on GMRS, I would at least make sure that its emissions are in conformance with certification for GMRS frequencies.
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DeepBlue
Member
It doesn't say it applies only to digital radios. it says in plain language it applies to all radios inb that section. I do not believe I am wrong. Perhaps a call to the local FCC field office is in order? It says exactly - "The antenna must be a non-removable integral part of the GMRS unit " Not any GMRS digital capable unit which would clearly setr aside analog from digital. I will stand by my plain english reading of the rules.
Sean
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
What has been said above is correct. Knowing how to read the formatting of the FCC rules is a challenge, and it's easy to misunderstand. If it makes you more comfortable, make a call to the FCC and ask them directly. But make sure you are getting someone knowledgeable, not the random call center person that answers the toll free number.
bill4long
Member
Sorry, you don't know how to read Federal statutes correctly. Do a Google search on how to do it. Yes, by all means, call the FCC. Best of luck.
They’re actually correct, as the others have said. You have misinterpreted. It does not apply to all. Heed what is said by the others here...
bill4long
Member
Your problem is not your "plain english reading", it's the fact that you don't seem to understand that (4) is a subparagraph of paragraph (a), and thus pertains only to radios described in paragraph (a), not GMRS radios in general.
amphibian
Member
You can use Chirp to program the BTech GMRS-V1. Doing so will allow you to change how the display works, (like displaying a freq or a name on each channel), how it scans ( setting up each channel for scan or skip scan), selecting Narrow or regular FM per channel, along with CTCSS/DCS. transmit RF power output, and of course we don't want to forget the roger beep and/or VOX modes. That's just for starters. Many other settings also. The V1 does not have the 5 watts of RF out as many dealers and factory advertise at times, but generally most all the ones I've bought (about thirty) have had a constant 3 watts. Do like some, place two of them in a ammo box, with a antenna on the outside top of the ammo box and one on the outside bottom of the ammo box and you have a "to-go box repeater"... Stick it on top of a building, tall tower, tall pole, or up in the top of a tree with a battery or two on the inside of the ammo box and you got yourself a good little low power repeater. I've had one operating now for over a year that's located on top of a hill (625 elevation) that's attached to 50 foot pole I made to fit the receiver hitch of my Motor Home and it's covering/working 20-30 miles in any direction. Most of the landscape around it is 375 - 525 elevation. Or, get mag mounts that will help extend the range of them and use them in the car for repeater access, car-to-car, or car-to-base. And that part of "The antenna must be a non-removable integral part of the GMRS unit."...well someone needs to go back to school and learn how to read the rules. That rule only pertained to FRS radios that could transmit on the GMRS channels. The FRS radios could not have removable antennas. Also remember that there are plenty of used commercial brand of UHF radios that are both type accepted for part 90 & 95 that can be obtained on the Internet that you could purchase for about a dime or two or three more than a V1 if you are wanting to use GMRS in your mobile. You keep a search for them and you can find them. I bought four Kenwoods the other day for twentyfive bucks each and that included shipping, so I know they are out there if you search.
Good luck,
amphibian
Good luck,
amphibian
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