How to gain more visibility to those in commercial RF?

[mmckenna]

If you look at the service monitor use in my Portfolio - if I take out the "amateur radio" focus I take out the service monitor entirely. That means filter tuning, spectrum analyzer use, etc. So unless I am misunderstanding your point - to me, what I am reading is I almost need to throw out the whole Portfolio and go to some company with nothing to to show. If I do show anything it is likely to have the opposite affect - a walk out the door, and not a continued conversation.

No, I wouldn't throw it out. It's useful knowledge, but keep it for a portfolio of skills. If you use that on your resume, remove the references to amateur radio. It won't really matter what frequencies were involved, only that you know how to operate the equipment and understand what it's telling you.

Again, nothing against amateur radio, it's how many of us got our start in the industry. I just caution other amateurs from assuming an amateur radio license is going to open doors in the industry. It might help, but on it's own, it's not a golden ticket.

To illustrate the point - going back to the example of the fiber optic "specialist" that was given earlier - it was easier to train other people that weren't experts in fiber optics than it was to hang on to the guy that wouldn't learn the other skills.

Exactly. The job we had entailed a lot of different aspects. Putting connectors on the end of fiber optic cable was only part of it, and over all a small part of the overall job. There was a lot of time spent down in manholes pulling cable through miles of ducts. There was time pumping out water from flooded manholes. There was time wrestling reels of cable. There was time installing equipment racks, vacuuming up dust from drilling anchors into the floor.
Basically, I didn't need a guy that was only good at, or only willing to do one aspect of the job. I could take a guy that knew how to pull cable really well, could run a hammer drill properly, run conduit, and train him to terminate cable. The benefit to the company was that I had less people on payroll sitting around and could do more with less.
Unless you get into a really large shop/agency, or into some very specialized aspect of the industry, limiting yourself to only very specific skills isn't going to get you a lot of work. Diversification is important.

In light of that example - if I walk in to a company looking for work, to them, it probably is going to be more of a problem for them to "undo" all of what they think I know (the bad stigma attached to Amateur Radio already) then build me up from nothing so they will pass on my skills.

Is that not a correct assumption?

Again, to the highlighted above in what I quoted - is there a way to "translate" what I do have to a "commercial focus" that will hold any merit?

Yeah, sort of. Depends on the company and the individual (you).

Some techs can take what they've learned about other products/fields and apply it well to different situations. That can be a skill in itself. It's rare when we can only focus on one brand/product in this field, unless you are working for a manufacturer.

I wouldn't say that amateur radio has a 'stigma'. I'd say that it's different enough from the industry that it can take some different skills and knowledge. Someone with just an amateur radio license isn't going to necessarily make for a great technician. Rather than 'stigma', I'd say that amateur radio has some differences that need to be acknowledged. Amateur radio can be a great place to get your start, but on it's own, it's usually not enough.

It take some experience. Looks like you have some, which is good. But when I look at your commercial experience, I see the RTK work and some tower install type work. Good skills, but unless you can find a very specific niche where that's the skills that are needed, it's not going to be enough.
Experience with just analog amateur radio is good, but so much of the industry has gone digital that it isn't funny. Analog only systems are being installed, but not like digital stuff. Getting some skills on the digital side would be good. P25 and DMR would be some good knowledge to have. That might take some work on your part to get that. Again, amateur radio DMR is similar, but not enough on it's own. Some industry training might be a good idea. It can get expensive, but maybe taking some courses from Motorola, Kenwood, etc. would be a good investment. Or, getting into a shop at an entry level and having them train you would be good.

As for the spectrum analyzer experience, that's good stuff, but finding a way to apply it to the commercial world needs to be done. Showing how you used it to track down and solve interference issues would be useful. Showing how you used it to tune duplexers would be good too.

 

[prcguy]

Simply replace the words "amateur radio" experience with "two-way radio" experience when discussing a service monitor or tuning filters, etc. Its the same technical expertise in most cases.

If you look at the service monitor use in my Portfolio - if I take out the "amateur radio" focus I take out the service monitor entirely. That means filter tuning, spectrum analyzer use, etc. So unless I am misunderstanding your point - to me, what I am reading is I almost need to throw out the whole Portfolio and go to some company with nothing to to show. If I do show anything it is likely to have the opposite affect - a walk out the door, and not a continued conversation.

 

[KC8QVO]

Resume should be one page ideally, 2 is pushing it.
Write your resume for the job you want.

Resume should be a page and a half max.

How far back should my work and education history go?

As in - can I chop out everything work related prior to 2010 and can I cut out all my education except for my degree and minor?

What I hesitate with in doing that is I have a lot of CAD (Computer Aided Design, mechanical drawings with AutoCAD/Inventor) in there. That can be valuable I would think?

Simply replace the words "amateur radio" experience with "two-way radio" experience when discussing a service monitor or tuning filters, etc. Its the same technical expertise in most cases.

Thank you for the clarity. I would think "RF" is "RF", but if the application of it can, in and of itself, close doors (IE - amateur radio use), as opposed to open them, that is what I was getting at. From what you state it shouldn't be too big of an issue.

I am going to nit-pick my own Portfolio here... but if you really look at that closely - Section 1 and Section 6 are dealing with CB radios. I would venture to guess if Ham radio is frowned upon in ways, CB is that ten-fold. Yet, at the core - as pictured in the Portfolio - the theory is all the same, just the application varies.

 

[Cameron314]

I think others have said this fairly well but you do need to learn and understand at least basic IP/networking even if you don't like it unless as far as you want to go is being the guy boxing up rental handhelds to mail out.

Only other thing I would add is maybe be a little more open to what you want to do, at least at this stage and how you want to get your foot in the door. They way you break down that wall and get the conversation started isn't by basically applying unsolicited for a job that doesn't exist but by taking one that does, even if it's not the end all be all of where you want to go.

 

[KC8QVO]

Important discussion topic:

I am looking online at some climbing certifications. Comparing all industry certifications, if I look at the following:

Commercial FCC licensing (GROL here)
Applicable tower climbing certification
(I am not leaving out Networking knowledge here entirely, but just trying to wrap my mind around the above two first)

There are two points I want to hit on.
1. Of the two areas of certifications, applicable tower climbing certifications and training are much more expensive.
2. From the research and interviewing I have done over the past several months - it appears every company has their "own" range of "required certifications".

So speaking to number 2 above:

Does it even make sense for me to find a way to invest in tower certifications when from company to company, and job to job, the requirements vary?

It seems to me, if the requirements vary so much, that it would be akin to pinning a moving target. If I invest in $4000 worth of classes to get certifications that end up only applying to 1 job it would make more sense to work in to the job and get the certifications it requires, no?

 

[Project25_MASTR]

Keep your resume/portfolio relevant to the job you are apply for. For example, I have two different resumes...one heavily LMR oriented and the other very networking oriented. Both cross over to an extent (in terms of microwave backhauls and networking stuff) but one goes into more detail about my past managing a WISP, designing networks for agricultural monitoring systems, etc where they other is more heavy in trunking systems, BDA/DAS, and antnennas systems. Keep it short, concise and if asked about it you can provide more detail.

 

[KC8QVO]

I think others have said this fairly well but you do need to learn and understand at least basic IP/networking even if you don't like it unless as far as you want to go is being the guy boxing up rental handhelds to mail out.

Point taken.

Not mentioned anywhere is I have some experience with IP connectivity. There are apps that are used with getting RTK correction signals via NTRIP, for example, from a cellular provider to a GPS receiver on a piece of farm equipment. Those I have worked with and done trouble-shooting with, but it is very much not my "strong point". I've even wrote troubleshooting documents for those set ups - by taking what was provided by several sources that all inter-mix in to the end useage of the systems to a more stream-lined theory of operation on the specific usage of the system.

Unfortunately, I don't have any records to show as examples of that, only the thoughts which I shared.

However, what I am looking for is, again, RF related - not networking. I do hear the points that have been made about the networking aspect being important, though.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Steve; You definitely want to look into the Wireless Internet Service Provider (WISP) field. There are a lot of opportunities , especially in rural areas to build out infrastructure. Even here at my Florida urban/rural boundary, there needs to be wireless competition with the cable companies since they pick and choose neighborhoods to further their monopolistic business.

 

[prcguy]

If you want to climb towers for a living that's ok. But anyone can get tower climbing certification in a few days if they need it by going to a seminar and taking the test, not counting the $$ of course. On the other hand not everyone can get a GROL. I know people who have wanted a GROL all their life and they cant pass the test. It takes much more than a few days of seminars and in the end is much costlier in time and effort to get one but will help you throughout a career in two way radio, radio/TV broadcast, satellite, etc. You already have an advantage with an amateur license and having passed some similar questions as the GROL test.

So how much does a tower climber make? How many job openings are there in the tower climbing business?

How much does a good RF person/tech make? How many job openings are there in whatever industry needs a GROL?

Important discussion topic:

I am looking online at some climbing certifications. Comparing all industry certifications, if I look at the following:

Commercial FCC licensing (GROL here)
Applicable tower climbing certification
(I am not leaving out Networking knowledge here entirely, but just trying to wrap my mind around the above two first)

There are two points I want to hit on.
1. Of the two areas of certifications, applicable tower climbing certifications and training are much more expensive.
2. From the research and interviewing I have done over the past several months - it appears every company has their "own" range of "required certifications".

So speaking to number 2 above:

Does it even make sense for me to find a way to invest in tower certifications when from company to company, and job to job, the requirements vary?

It seems to me, if the requirements vary so much, that it would be akin to pinning a moving target. If I invest in $4000 worth of classes to get certifications that end up only applying to 1 job it would make more sense to work in to the job and get the certifications it requires, no?

 

[KC8QVO]

The RTK's are a good start, but they don't really compare to what you'd find in a large repeater system, trunked system, etc. It's good experience, don't get me wrong, but it's a small segment of the industry. If you can find a job with a ag firm that does enough of those, you might find a good niche to fit into. We've had some issues with those locally where a "tech" would set them up on FRS frequencies.

Great points.

My sentiments are that the solution (getting the RTK signals to the equipment requiring them via a UHF radio link) was put in to an industry that wasn't ready, nor adequately prepared for, taught, and trained to work with them.

I can tell a lot of stories about them as well. This isn't the place for that discussion, but yes - I know exactly what you mean. However, being on the end of that environment of understanding some theory prior to getting in to that world, and enough intuition to progress with it and figure things out, I would venture to say the robust'ness of the network I put in was much better than the majority of them out there.

As noted in the Portfolio, though - we ran in to coordination problems ourselves. On top of that, even if we were licensed a frequency that at the time was "good" (clear) that never meant another user of a higher-level service couldn't be licensed the same frequency that would cause our equipment to have problems. It was a constant cat-and-mouse game, and continued after I moved on from that world in 2013.

For those reasons, that isn't an area that I want to go back to as a "specialty", however I would be open to assisting companies that may find themselves dealing with those types of problems if the overall opportunity includes more of what I am after.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

If you want to climb towers for a living that's ok. But anyone can get tower climbing certification in a few days if they need it by going to a seminar and taking the test, not counting the $$ of course. On the other hand not everyone can get a GROL. I know people who have wanted a GROL all their life and they cant pass the test. It takes much more than a few days of seminars and in the end is much costlier in time and effort to get one but will help you throughout a career in two way radio, radio/TV broadcast, satellite, etc.

So how much does a tower climber make? How many job openings are there in the tower climbing business?

How much does a good RF person/tech make? How many job openings are there in whatever industry needs a GROL?

Have to have a GROL to do BDA/DAS work in Florida now...just saying.

 

[Cameron314]

"Steve; You definitely want to look into the Wireless Internet Service Provider (WISP) field. There are a lot of opportunities , especially in rural areas to build out infrastructure. Even here at my Florida urban/rural boundary, there needs to be wireless competition with the cable companies since they pick and choose neighborhoods to further their monopolistic business.
"




I considered saying that as it is RF and seems like it would be a good jumping off point. Based on him working on RTK stuff I'm sure he's in an area that has a couple. BUT by its very nature it's pretty IP/network heavy. It would be a good way to learn some of that plus in a lot of cases you are going to get to know the LMR people in the area.

As for doing tower certs now, DON'T. The only exception would be would be something like doing ComTrain to get on with a tower crew. Which doesn't sound like the direction he would be headed. That's a whole different "lifestyle" lol. Otherwise wait. Most companies that have climbers have their requirements and most in most case you will still need to do their programs. Also lots of LMR shops out their that don't have climbers anymore and just sub it out.

 

[prcguy]

I still do a little tower climbing and the company I consult with doesn't require a specific certification for me, probably because I've known them for a good 30yrs. But I do have the utmost respect for the real tower guys.

I was on a TV station job last year where the station got everything swapped out, transmitter, tower, antenna, everything. I was on the indoor crew which was nice and cozy inside the building. The tower crew on the other hand had freezing temps, blowing snow and wind while they were working 300ft up on the tower.

One of the days a nasty looking storm was approaching and the crew came off the tower early, about a minute before lightning hit the tower and arced all over the place. I like an occasional tower job to get some fresh air and exercise, but I'll take the indoor work for the long run. On this job I suspect I made a lot more than the tower guys without all the risk.

As for doing tower certs now, DON'T. The only exception would be would be something like doing ComTrain to get on with a tower crew. Which doesn't sound like the direction he would be headed. That's a whole different "lifestyle" lol. Otherwise wait. Most companies that have climbers have their requirements and most in most case you will still need to do their programs. Also lots of LMR shops out their that don't have climbers anymore and just sub it out.

 

[KC8QVO]

The skills needed by most amateurs is quite a bit different that what you'll find in the commercial industry. The requirements for reliability are higher, the licensing/type certifications on equipment are different. The designs are different. In some ways the thinking is different.

Can you specify what I highlighted? And can you illustrate with an example?

Going back to the repeater example with the guy that installed the system not having the proper equipment, installing antennas and coax incorrectly, etc, etc - that I can understand. I ran in to that with the repeater in the example I put in my Portfolio (Section 12). You can't tune a duplexer without a tracking generator/spectrum analyzer.

However, your statement of the "ways of thinking" being different really stands out and I am curious to learn more of what you mean.

 

[KC8QVO]

On the other hand not everyone can get a GROL. I know people who have wanted a GROL all their life and they cant pass the test.

Is that an exaggeration? Or is there something really tricky/difficult with passing a GROL test?

This comes right back to my question below:

The skills needed by most amateurs is quite a bit different that what you'll find in the commercial industry. The requirements for reliability are higher, the licensing/type certifications on equipment are different. The designs are different. In some ways the thinking is different.

Can you specify what I highlighted?
---
However, your statement of the "ways of thinking" being different really stands out and I am curious to learn more of what you mean.

This is a great discussion and very eye-opening. My apologies if I seem too analytical and provoking, but I am trying to make some legitimate headway here. So far the discussion has been very "open minded" - and that is a world of difference from being met with silence and closed doors. So for that I can't thank everyone enough for continuing the conversation.

 

[mmckenna]

How far back should my work and education history go?

As in - can I chop out everything work related prior to 2010 and can I cut out all my education except for my degree and minor?

What I hesitate with in doing that is I have a lot of CAD (Computer Aided Design, mechanical drawings with AutoCAD/Inventor) in there. That can be valuable I would think?

Education and work experience should be two different sections on your resume in most cases.

List out your education with rough dates, year is usually good enough. Gaps in education are not a big deal. Graduating high school is a given, so no need to list that.

Work experience should be more or less chronological order, if there are gaps, be prepared to explain those. It's not a deal breaker, but expect to be asked what happened. Employers are looking for your ability to stick to the job. No one wants to hire an employee that has a history of only sticking around for a year or two.
Relevant work experience should be listed including some detail. Irrelevant work experience can just be listed without much detail.

Thank you for the clarity. I would think "RF" is "RF", but if the application of it can, in and of itself, close doors (IE - amateur radio use), as opposed to open them, that is what I was getting at. From what you state it shouldn't be too big of an issue.

RF is RF, that is true, but how it's applied in amateur radio versus commercial/public safety is the difference. The requirements from the FCC are going to be much more stringent on the commercial/public safety side than they are in the amateur hobby.
I'd add that a thorough reading and _understanding_ of the FCC Part 90 rules would be a really good idea. The rules are much different that what you'll run into in the hobby.

I am going to nit-pick my own Portfolio here... but if you really look at that closely - Section 1 and Section 6 are dealing with CB radios. I would venture to guess if Ham radio is frowned upon in ways, CB is that ten-fold. Yet, at the core - as pictured in the Portfolio - the theory is all the same, just the application varies.

CB and amateur radio on their own probably won't get you a job. It's good experience, but no shop is going to hire a tech that only has CB/hobby level experience. Yeah, it's all RF, but the application, rules, and requirements are different. That's where the full reading/understanding of FCC Part 90 is a good idea. If you want, start reading Part 80, too. That's the marine stuff and some of it will be on the GROL license test. Same for aviation, paging, even some cellular stuff. The more you know and the more you can intelligently discuss is going to be better for you.

 

[mmckenna]

Important discussion topic:

I am looking online at some climbing certifications. Comparing all industry certifications, if I look at the following:

Commercial FCC licensing (GROL here)
Applicable tower climbing certification
(I am not leaving out Networking knowledge here entirely, but just trying to wrap my mind around the above two first)

There are two points I want to hit on.
1. Of the two areas of certifications, applicable tower climbing certifications and training are much more expensive.
2. From the research and interviewing I have done over the past several months - it appears every company has their "own" range of "required certifications".

So speaking to number 2 above:

Does it even make sense for me to find a way to invest in tower certifications when from company to company, and job to job, the requirements vary?

It seems to me, if the requirements vary so much, that it would be akin to pinning a moving target. If I invest in $4000 worth of classes to get certifications that end up only applying to 1 job it would make more sense to work in to the job and get the certifications it requires, no?

Tower climbing certification will be a requirement at any reputable shop/agency. That won't be negotiable. It comes down to insurance. My brother in law works for a company that does a lot of point to point microwave stuff. No tower certification, no climb. The insurance company requires it.

The different companies may have different requirements, but it's all looking for the same end. That you can safely work on a tower without killing yourself or anyone else.

Yeah, it's expensive. One approach you might be able to use is to prove your experience and tell a prospective employer that upon hiring you'll either pay for your own tower climbing certification, or negotiate for the employer to pay part or all of it. You have experience, so it'll be easy. But the certification will be required at some point. Safety stuff like that isn't negotiable, and I wouldn't work for a company that did.

 

[mmckenna]

Point taken.
…..

However, what I am looking for is, again, RF related - not networking. I do hear the points that have been made about the networking aspect being important, though.

Go now to your local community college and sign up for their next course in networking. Even if it's a basic introduction class. Do it.

It's going to be required at some point in your career. You will be competing against others for jobs. Modern radio systems are all IP, and knowing how to trouble shoot issues is a big part of the job. You may end up having to work with internet service providers, and you'll need to speak the language at some level to interface with them. If you don't have that training/experience, you're going to miss out and passed over for jobs, promotions and opportunities. As a new person to the industry, you don't have the experience, skills or seniority to get away with skipping things like that.

Seriously, you won't go far unless you do that. "RF Only" guys may have worked 10+ years ago, but it won't fly now. Most kids coming out of high school have some experience in networking, so you'll be up against them. That isn't a place you want to be.

 

[KC8QVO]

The different companies may have different requirements, but it's all looking for the same end. That you can safely work on a tower without killing yourself or anyone else.

Fair point. The first real climbing I did was probably the fall of 2010. That was almost 10 years ago. I haven't had any serious injuries (pulled muscles, cuts, and bruises - sure) in that time. However, I do hear what you are saying. That's fine. However, getting a certification is entirely obtainable. The challenge I've found, though, is a certification that is in the "language" that a company wants.

You know, on a tangent to the above statement - if companies require specific certifications it almost makes transitioning around the industry impossible. How can you spend 3 years at one company and have your experience qualify for advancing your career somewhere else when you worked under one level of certifications and the company you are trying to go to requires a whole other level/language?

 

[mmckenna]

Can you specify what I highlighted? And can you illustrate with an example?

Going back to the repeater example with the guy that installed the system not having the proper equipment, installing antennas and coax incorrectly, etc, etc - that I can understand. I ran in to that with the repeater in the example I put in my Portfolio (Section 12). You can't tune a duplexer without a tracking generator/spectrum analyzer.

However, your statement of the "ways of thinking" being different really stands out and I am curious to learn more of what you mean.

FCC rules. Big thing that will be required to know.
Amateur radio operators can get away with a lot of slop in their systems since they have big chunks of band to work with. On the commercial side, you have a 12.5 or 6.25KHz channel that you have to stay in, no exceptions.

On the public safety side, failure really isn't an option. On the amateur side, not a big deal, someone will eventually drive out to the repeater site and fix it. Eventually. That doesn't fly with a police, fire or EMS system. It isn't supposed to break, and if it does, it gets fixed now. Middle of the night, in the rain, with the power out, and you haven't slept in 36 hours. I've been through things like that, and it's not fun. But it does teach you to do things right the first time and mitigate risks. That's something that's hard to teach those that haven't been through it. Amateurs might talk about "when all else fails" and "emergency communications", but most don't really understand what that means. 23 years at the same employer taught me to take ownership of all my systems. I learned really quickly that if I didn't want to be called by dispatch in the middle of the night, that I had to make sure everything was done right. I had to have spare parts. I had to have everything labeled. I had to have the tools and training to deal with trouble when it came up. After about 2 years, my job became much easier. I get called out maybe a few times a year now.
I can tell you that the chief or the dispatchers don't care that it's your day off. They won't care that you are tired. They won't care if it's your wife's birthday.
That's the big issue I see between amateur/hobby and professionals.

It's rare I see an amateur radio repeater that is set up to any sort of industry standard. I've seen them laying on the floor with wires all over the place. I've seen battery systems installed with no fuses or circuit breakers, undersized wiring, and batteries laying on the concrete. It's rare to see amateur radio repeaters with lightning suppressors, intermod panels, proper grounding, or anything that follows NEC. I've touched coaxial cable where the connector is held on with electrical tape and it falls off.
To be fair, I have seen that on the commercial side, but it's very rare, and it's something that gets fixed. When a customer is paying for work, there's a certain expectation that things are going to be done right. When it comes to working at a commercial/public safety radio site, ignoring grounding, national electric code or industry standards usually doesn't end well. You don't want to be the guy that lets the lightning into the radio site.
The amateur radio tests don't cover that sort of stuff, and many don't take the time to learn it. On the hobby side, it doesn't really matter, but when you start sharing radio sites with others, it does.