How to gain more visibility to those in commercial RF?

[mmckenna]

Is that an exaggeration? Or is there something really tricky/difficult with passing a GROL test?

It takes a broad amount of knowledge. It's not just RF, it's not just electronics. There's FCC rules that have to be known/understood. There's knowledge about applications, math, procedures, workmanship, etc. When I did my GROL, it seriously stretched my brain, even with 2 decades of experience. Seriously, my head hurt in the evenings after class.

 

[mmckenna]

Fair point. The first real climbing I did was probably the fall of 2010. That was almost 10 years ago. I haven't had any serious injuries (pulled muscles, cuts, and bruises - sure) in that time. However, I do hear what you are saying. That's fine. However, getting a certification is entirely obtainable. The challenge I've found, though, is a certification that is in the "language" that a company wants.

You know, on a tangent to the above statement - if companies require specific certifications it almost makes transitioning around the industry impossible. How can you spend 3 years at one company and have your experience qualify for advancing your career somewhere else when you worked under one level of certifications and the company you are trying to go to requires a whole other level/language?

Companies will have different requirements, that's just reality. But having the proven skills to get your foot in the door is where it's at. A small shop may not care which company did your certification, if they are reputable. They'll just want the paper. A large company may want it from a specific training company so all the climbers are doing things the same way with the same sets of skills and knowledge.

It can make changing jobs a bit more challenging, but usually any large shop/agency will pay for you to re-certify periodically, so it's not a big deal. Having climber/rescuer certification from the wrong company won't keep you from getting the job, but it may result in you needing to go and get re-certified shortly after hiring on.

 

[KC8QVO]

I still do some occasional consulting and work in the satellite broadcast industry and get sent all over the world to work on stuff at $1k/day rate. I don't think I could have made that staying in the two-way radio or aerospace business.

This isn't to be specific to your world, but I will use it as an example to base my question on:

Are there opportunities for people in similar positions as you have stated that you do (consulting work, or any other "specialty" that works similarly) to take on an apprentice under wing?

Something that came up in the local Ham community a while back was a conversation with one gentlemen that was recently retired. He's in a similar boat where he is still assisting the company on more of a consulting basis. The department that he is working out of is not nearly what it was in years past, for one (the company has moved on to other things - likely the "acceleration in technology" I mentioned earlier). The other consideration is that the level of work that this person did that is still needing one on a more consistent basis has been transferred to someone internally.

So in the above example there isn't an opportunity for taking on an apprentice. However, that doesn't mean those opportunities - however rare and obscure they may be - can't exist elsewhere.

From the discussion so far it appears a GROL and networking certs/training are paramount. So in my question - aside from those - is there anything else that would stand out that could be a bonus (from a certification standpoint) to have?

I would venture a guess that the "apprentice" spot is a magical colored unicorn in today's world, one that would have to have a couple of stars align - both the opportunity to be there (what I am inquiring about) as well as the qualifications (certifications and experience, I'm combining both to the same term of "qualifications" here) .

 

[Cameron314]

Fair point. The first real climbing I did was probably the fall of 2010. That was almost 10 years ago. I haven't had any serious injuries (pulled muscles, cuts, and bruises - sure) in that time. However, I do hear what you are saying. That's fine. However, getting a certification is entirely obtainable. The challenge I've found, though, is a certification that is in the "language" that a company wants.

You know, on a tangent to the above statement - if companies require specific certifications it almost makes transitioning around the industry impossible. How can you spend 3 years at one company and have your experience qualify for advancing your career somewhere else when you worked under one level of certifications and the company you are trying to go to requires a whole other level/language?

It's the experience and skill they are looking for not the card. Each company will have their own policies. Most organizations(mine included) are looking for the experience the card is easy. A dude with a card he got in a one day class without the experience and skill that comes with time working isn't really much better than the new guy that knows he doesn't know.

 

[prcguy]

There is nothing tricky, but I suspect if you stop 100 cars off the interstate and run them through a two day course, most if not all will get tower certified. Do the same for a GROL and very few can cram that much info and pass the test in the same amount of time. Or even with 2 weeks of solid studying. A licensed amateur has an advantage because its obviously their hobby and they have already passed some of the questions. A GROL is good to have when looking for jobs in radio communications, broadcasting, etc.

When I interviewed for my first satellite broadcast position they were skeptical because I didn't have any broadcast experience except for some random piece meal jobs and they couldn't relate to much of my radio and aerospace experience. Never mind I had built and aligned microwave transmitters, receivers, modulators, high power microwave amps, etc, that were essentially the same as the equipment at a satellite broadcast center. They "took a chance" with me only because I had a GROL and it turned into a great career.

The satellite parent company was the aerospace company I was working for already and a friend got a job there and said I should come check it out. I did, walking through front door without any question because I had the same company badge as everyone else. I ended up touring the facility and even got commandeered into assembling and wiring up some satellite dish stuff when I announced I had to get back to my real job across town.

The satellite facility was being built at the time and the people I was helping had no idea I didn't actually work there. I seemed to know as much as they did so I put in for a transfer and even with some recommendations from employees, management was still looking for specific experience that I did not have. Without my GROL I may not have been hired and would have been stuck in the aerospace industry, or at least for awhile.

Is that an exaggeration? Or is there something really tricky/difficult with passing a GROL test?

This comes right back to my question below:


This is a great discussion and very eye-opening. My apologies if I seem too analytical and provoking, but I am trying to make some legitimate headway here. So far the discussion has been very "open minded" - and that is a world of difference from being met with silence and closed doors. So for that I can't thank everyone enough for continuing the conversation.

 

[buddrousa]

Can I ask a personal question? How old are you? and if you are older than 25 why wait to get into this now? I read into your questions as you do not want to expand yourself into what is needed for what you want as pointed out before you want your job on your terms.
If I was sitting in a office looking to hire a person like stated before my 1st question I want to answer is WHAT CAN YOU DO FOR ME.

 

[KC8QVO]

Can I ask a personal question? How old are you? and if you are older than 25 why wait to get into this now? I read into your questions as you do not want to expand yourself into what is needed for what you want as pointed out before you want your job on your terms.
If I was sitting in a office looking to hire a person like stated before my 1st question I want to answer is WHAT CAN YOU DO FOR ME.

I realize there will be critics. This is the age of "social media" and it is easy for people to flame throw with few restraints.

As for your questions - thank you for carrying on the conversation. That is one of my main goals - talking to people, even though we're typing on the forum here.

Age 34

Speaking from an interest level, my interest is focused on RF. I am not ruling out other things. However, what I am working through is how I can blend what my interest and skills are now (and skill in the future - by way of running off of what my interest is to expand skills) to point in a career that will make use of them and expand them.

I have said several times I am not ruling out "other skills". If those are important, as has been defined, thats fine. I will look in to ways of gaining those skills (or a certification in something that applies, like networking).

My list of things I was looking to get in to was not all-inclusive, and nothing more. The question is where those aspects fall in to play in the commercial world and how I can get in to those fields.

As far as why, if I'm older than 25, I am waiting to get in to this now - again I'm 34, so to answer your question:
I was on another career path that ended up not working out. Sometimes in this world that happens, for any number of reasons. Since I've been interested in Radio since I was a teen it seems obvious to me at this stage to work in to that world. That is where I am - trying to connect with people that are actually knowledgeable about commercial RF, and not hidden behind managers and HR reps that have too much to do than waste their time talking to someone who is legitimately interested in their field.

As has been described numerous times - I need to streamline my resume for one. Secondly - Ham radio appears as a deterrent, though structuring knowledge and skills to more broadly apply to any field of RF can be a benefit.

At the end of the day - this thread is doing numerous things. It is opening conversation, primarily, and it is shedding light, through that conversation, on what real challenges there are, what is important, and possibilities. That is invaluable and I appreciate the continued conversation.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

Can you specify what I highlighted? And can you illustrate with an example?

Going back to the repeater example with the guy that installed the system not having the proper equipment, installing antennas and coax incorrectly, etc, etc - that I can understand. I ran in to that with the repeater in the example I put in my Portfolio (Section 12). You can't tune a duplexer without a tracking generator/spectrum analyzer.

However, your statement of the "ways of thinking" being different really stands out and I am curious to learn more of what you mean.

Different ways of thinking. For example, you absolutely can tune a duplexer without a tracking generator/spectrum analyzer. I can actually think of two different ways off the top of my head that I've tuned filters in the field.

Amateurs often take the stance of being scrappy is a good thing. Commercial technicians often like to see the job done right the first time. We hate those 1 AM calls an hour and a half away...you know, the ones where as you are driving back afterwards you say to yourself, "If I go right I can go home for 15 minutes before I have to go to the office...if I go straight I can just be at the office 45 minutes early."

One of the reasons I left Bearcom was because I felt the only job of service was to perform sub-par installations because the sales reps were encouraged to only think about revenue for the month and not the long term, 5+ year picture. To them, if they could sell 40% of feedline cost by ordering LMR400 for a repeater that may have to be replaced in 4 or 5 years versus 1/2" hardline that would last 10-15 years, it was more money for them and more return business even when the difference would be marginal to the customer.

Then again, the sales reps engineered pretty much every solution at Bearcom. It wasn't until Bearcom bought Staley that they got engineers on staff...who still aren't fully utilized (as I've heard about some BDA debacles down in Florida) using the Tessco's flavor of the week engineering practices.

 

[KC8QVO]

Different ways of thinking. For example, you absolutely can tune a duplexer without a tracking generator/spectrum analyzer. I can actually think of two different ways off the top of my head that I've tuned filters in the field.

Interesting comment. I suppose you have to have a calibrated signal (specific frequency most importantly) and a receiver of some kind to measure off of so you can peak or dip a signal... I would be curious on your two methods if you are inclined to share.

For what it is worth, I did try to tune a pass/notch filter before I had my service monitor with a ham transmitter and receiver to see if I could do it. I don't recall the outcome, but I believe it was pretty far off. I would like to try the same again just to see it if I can get a duplexer or bandpass filter to play with...

To them, if they could sell 40% of feedline cost by ordering LMR400 for a repeater that may have to be replaced in 4 or 5 years versus 1/2" hardline that would last 10-15 years, it was more money for them and more return business even when the difference would be marginal to the customer.

Admittedly, I did the same thing on the UHF transmitters. All the interconnect cables were LMR-400 Ultra - because I was familiar with it. The feedline was always AVA5-50A up the towers. Then there was, in most cases, LMR-400 Ultra at the top to bridge the hardline and antenna.

After dealing with the local repeater I can see the advantage of using hardline (flexible 1/2" or what ever) and the time it can last. I did sweep tests on a lot of interconnect cables that were really bad - including some hardline even.

 

[KC8QVO]

I trimmed my Resume down and attached it to the Facebook post linked in the original post on this thread. It is uploaded as picture form and is the last 4 pages of the set in the post.

The "resume" portion is almost 2 pages, the "cover letter" is less than 1/2 page, and it has a cover sheet. As far as length goes - I suppose that is the main question now. As far as content goes - I can't put content on there that doesn't exist, yet. Maybe there is still content in there that is too lengthy?

I can add a section in the Cover Letter for what I am looking for when I get a chance. A lot of that is yet to be determined, but I can at least put something in there that is in a better direction now than when I posted this thread last night.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

Interesting comment. I suppose you have to have a calibrated signal (specific frequency most importantly) and a receiver of some kind to measure off of so you can peak or dip a signal... I would be curious on your two methods if you are inclined to share.

For what it is worth, I did try to tune a pass/notch filter before I had my service monitor with a ham transmitter and receiver to see if I could do it. I don't recall the outcome, but I believe it was pretty far off. I would like to try the same again just to see it if I can get a duplexer or bandpass filter to play with...

To this day, tracking generators are still optioned extras on service monitors. One setup would be to set your service monitor to generate on frequency of interest and then monitor the signal level on the same frequency of the monitor while cabling through the filter. Tune for peak signal. Works best when you can break the cavities apart. The Motorola R2001 operators manual actually has a full procedure (I think even the Quantar Base Station Manual has it as well). Another option to to measure RL of the cavities and tune for minimum RL. Gets you pretty close but again, works best when you break cavities apart (unless you are dealing with combiners, then it's one of my favorite ways to tune combiners).

 

[jim202]

Let me make a suggestion. See if you can locate a local radio club and go to a couple of meetings. You might find a couple of members that stick out as being knowledgeable. See if one of them can become a mentor to you and take you under their wing.

I started out many years ago working for IBM working on their large main frame computers and I/O equipment. From there I worked for Telex Computers right back at the same customers for the most part servicing the I/O equipment.

From there I managed to make a big step and worked for the Mass. Institute of Technology at a field site working on their large planetary radar system that was used to radar image the different planets and the moon. We also radar tracked and imaged satellites for NORAD. Got involved with working on the power supply that took up a huge room by itself. It ran at 40 KV at about 40 amps average current. It also had a large cooling system for the 4 traveling wave tubes (TWT) that used filtered distilled water to cool them with a 100 HP, variable speed motor. There were 3 large radiators outside to cool the system that used 30 HP motors to spin the fans.

After that I managed to get a job at a two way radio shop. Their service manager was going active duty with the guard for about a year. The shop serviced public safety agencies and school bus companies. Had a couple of tower sites that the shop serviced all the radio equipment at including a couple of National Weather Service transmitters.

Left there and managed to break into the cellular service industry. Worked for 4 different cellular companies around the country. The last one was run almost as a ma and pa operation with like 650 employees. Designed the cellular sites, specified the towers, shelters generators and grounding system. Got involved with the larger coax cables like 1 5/8. I fired one tower crew that was going to use pipe wrenches to tighten up the 1 5/8, silver plated connectors.

After the cellular work, I worked for a consulting firm on public safety agency radio systems and tower locations. Boy did we find some really poor work from the contractors.

Next job was with a satellite dish support company for TV and internet service. Again the contractors that did the original install cut every corner they could. No grounding, coax connectors that spun on the end of the coax, dishes pointed into the house or trees and didn't work well at all. Finally to the company I was done and walked away.

With all this behind me, I would suggest that if you want to get into the radio service work, look up the radio service shops in your area and drop by for a visit. See if you can get the service shop manager to sit and talk with you and get it from the horses mouth what kind of background that person is looking for in who they might consider for new help.

By the way, I am a ham radio geek that has had a license sinve before I left high school. It's a good hobby that has given me some real good experience. I have a bunch of test equipment and several service monitors.

Good luck on your job search.

Jim

 

[speedway_navigator]

I know a couple of guys who had 2nd class FCC licenses but failed to file the paperwork to switch to a GROL back when that happened in the mid 80s, they don't show up in the FCC database now. I took the test 3 times before I passed, it was pretty useless then, not much material to study other than Schrader's book which was the 2 way tech's bible back then.

One guy works for a state agency and is looking at taking the test, asked if I had any training material.
I'm surprised element 1 is GMDSS / maritime oriented, not sure why that's in the LMR field. Nothing I'd ever deal with, I get seasick just watching Gilligan's Island reruns.

I started looking at the new test because I've had some inquires about giving a class to pass the test since some states require it for DAS installs.

 

[KC8QVO]

Let me make a suggestion. See if you can locate a local radio club and go to a couple of meetings. You might find a couple of members that stick out as being knowledgeable. See if one of them can become a mentor to you and take you under their wing.

Thank you for your post.

What kind of club are you referring to? You say "radio" so I am assuming a Ham radio club, or do you really mean some sort of industry-level organization?

With all this behind me, I would suggest that if you want to get into the radio service work, look up the radio service shops in your area and drop by for a visit. See if you can get the service shop manager to sit and talk with you and get it from the horses mouth what kind of background that person is looking for in who they might consider for new help.

I've been on that road for months. I posted on Facebook, and eventually here on RR, because I ran the local taps dry.

One company is a tower company. Oddly enough, I contracted them myself back around 2012 for projects I was working on as the crew we had wasn't enough to get through them timely. The owner of that tower company set me in contact with a higher-level manager at a 2-way shop that they work with. Maybe it was the guy's personality at the 2-way shop, or maybe it was the fact they were really busy, but he completely blew me off twice. I figured if it was that hard to get the guy to talk to me on the phone to set up a time to meet that I would have to drive over there, having already been shut down twice after the introduction he got to me from the tower company, then it probably wasn't a good idea for me to show up in person at his office door.

Now, if things through this thread somehow get back through to them and the interest is there on their part - fine. I will gladly have the conversation.

The other comment I will offer is that the places I have checked with are, in some capacity, two-way radio places, aside from tower companies (that cover the whole gamet). That was part of the reason for reaching out - I know there is more out there, but I don't know the specifics, nor anyone that can lead me in a direction. More has happened since I posted this thread in that regard than anything I've come up with over several months. I've applied to a lot of jobs online, but again - the applications fall silent. That's one major wall that this thread has allowed me through - to communicate with you all reading this.

As far as the local two-way shops - at the end of the day my sights have left my areas two-way shops. Other industries like satellite services - thats another ballgame that may open some avenues. I'm sure there are other areas as well. Getting in touch with those people that are in industries relatively close to where I am (central Ohio) and carrying on this conversation would be great. That is where the power of Social Media comes in - the people networking that can eventually get me to them.

I have talked to more than just the two places that I am alluding to here, names shall remain nameless. One of the others not alluded to I got a verbal offer from but that is another story. Lets just say there were too many red flags! Then again, as I mentioned with the other place - if somehow this thread makes it back to them and they reconsider - I will gladly have the conversation with them. However, they realistically aren't going to get me where I want to go in a career at this point anyway, unless they expand exponentially and acquire the volume to support where I want to get to.

By the way, I am a ham radio geek that has had a license sinve before I left high school. It's a good hobby that has given me some real good experience. I have a bunch of test equipment and several service monitors.

Good luck on your job search.

Jim

Thanks Jim. I'm glad you offered your comments.

 

[KC8QVO]

-Networking certification, even if just entry level. So much of the industry is about IP networking now, without that, you'll get passed up.

I think others have said this fairly well but you do need to learn and understand at least basic IP/networking...

Is simply a "class" enough? Or would a "certification" be better? And if so - what type?

If simply a "class" is enough - what specific subjects/applications are important?

I am sure the right work experience carries more weight, but without it what is the next best step to get somewhere where I can get experience?

On a bit of a different twist - is it worth trying to get my foot in the door somewhere in a related area of RF while working towards a GROL, networking knowledge, etc? Or (figuratively) flip burgers until I can get those?

 

[Project25_MASTR]

Is simply a "class" enough? Or would a "certification" be better? And if so - what type?

If simply a "class" is enough - what specific subjects/applications are important?

I am sure the right work experience carries more weight, but without it what is the next best step to get somewhere where I can get experience?

On a bit of a different twist - is it worth trying to get my foot in the door somewhere in a related area of RF while working towards a GROL, networking knowledge, etc? Or (figuratively) flip burgers until I can get those?

CompTIA's Network+ would be a good one as would Cisco's CCNA (which just changed so beware) as they are more or less industry standards (in terms of networking).

That being said, familiarity with Ubiquiti/Cambium/Mikrotik products is becoming more and more desired. If you can get into it, Motorola's NWT001E is a great course to take as it's aimed as a very intro to basic IP, routes, OSPF and VRRP with some practical labs (like you might see in a two-way radio deployment).

Another good one (in my opinion) would be Mikrotik's MTCNA as it covers basic wired, basic subnetting (not the whole theory behind it which is good info), statically routed, a little PPP (tunnels), basic wireless, and basic firewall rules. If you want to get into a little more advanced routing, MTCRE covers OSPF in depth (as well as a lab which points out some downfalls to OSPF).

This post reminds me, I need to get back into the track for having a basic IP for two-way guys course for ETA...got the outline done, just need some more detail.

 

[KC8QVO]

CompTIA's Network+ would be a good one as would Cisco's CCNA (which just changed so beware) as they are more or less industry standards (in terms of networking).

Comments specific to the bold text of the quote.

When you say "industry standards in terms of networking" - I have to question the applications. Is a satellite service going to be interfacing systems through the same "networking" processes that two-way systems are? Or backhaul systems? Etc, etc?

I guess what I am trying to ask is if those aspects you mention of Networking share enough commonality that they are considered universal knowledge/understanding.

 

[Cameron314]

Is simply a "class" enough? Or would a "certification" be better? And if so - what type?

If simply a "class" is enough - what specific subjects/applications are important?

I am sure the right work experience carries more weight, but without it what is the next best step to get somewhere where I can get experience?

On a bit of a different twist - is it worth trying to get my foot in the door somewhere in a related area of RF while working towards a GROL, networking knowledge, etc? Or (figuratively) flip burgers until I can get those?

Well as I'm sure you are seeing by now neither class or a certification is really "enough", you need the skills. That said either is a step in the right direction.

So yeah go and get a job where you can start to learn these skills over how to flip a burger. What do you do now?

 

[Cameron314]

Comments specific to the bold text of the quote.

When you say "industry standards in terms of networking" - I have to question the applications. Is a satellite service going to be interfacing systems through the same "networking" processes that two-way systems are? Or backhaul systems? Etc, etc?

I guess what I am trying to ask is if those aspects you mention of Networking share enough commonality that they are considered universal knowledge/understanding.

More and more everything is IP. It's only going to become more so.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

Comments specific to the bold text of the quote.

When you say "industry standards in terms of networking" - I have to question the applications. Is a satellite service going to be interfacing systems through the same "networking" processes that two-way systems are? Or backhaul systems? Etc, etc?

I guess what I am trying to ask is if those aspects you mention of Networking share enough commonality that they are considered universal knowledge/understanding.

D) All of the above

At it's core, you are just forwarding packets from one point to another. Until you get into application specific details, you don't even care about what you are forwarding. In a multi-site conventional DMR system, all we care about is the repeater at one site can access the "master" repeater via IP (the common point of packet redistribution)...if that's in the same subnet great, if you need routes involved so those packets can do that, great and you need to know about them in order to diagnose (the repeaters don't). Simulcast systems use multicast IP addresses to send information relating to transmission launching. Many systems also use GPS local GPS disiplined NTP servers to provide accurate timing information (simulcast, logging, etc). Some systems, you can't even program subscribers for without having an IP connection to a provisioning server (such as, there is no CPS for programming radios).

It's become an integrated part of the systems and is utilized for just about everything. Knowing how it all works is vital. A quick example, when Hurricane Harvey hit Texas, I was in Austin working on a bouncing microwave link. The link was continuously going up and down due to the unusual high winds from the hurricane and was causing three sites feed off of it to constantly go in and out of site trunking (which was problematic for two dispatch centers which used the site). Sitting there and watching the microwave radio, you could see the link come and go however until you figured out what was going on you didn't know how to fix the issue (hint, it had to do with how OSPF works and convergence times). If that's greek to you...can't really diagnose the cause of the issue and come up with a suitable workaround.