Interpretation of FCC Part 97 Emergency Distress Operations Rules

[AK9R]

I surround myself with people that know the territory, the dangers, know how to take care of themselves and others without acting the pseudo-rescue want-a-bee's...

On the other hand, the guy who hasn't done a sit-up since 8th-grade gym class, who lives in a "vinyl village" carefully controlled by an officious HOA, who drives his mini-van or car-based SUV on an 8-lane freeway with thousands of other drivers to his workplace in a glass-and-concrete office park, who also modifies his amateur radio handheld for out-of-band transmit specifically because he might need to contact the local public safety authorities in an "emergency" is distinctly not prepared to take care of himself. There's a lot more this guy might want to think about doing to prepare before he thinks about transmitting with his modified radio. And, I think that's the real issue here: Folks who say, in advance, that they plan to use their modified radios in an emergency, really aren't preparing for that emergency.

Ahhh!--- back to the original subject. And, what was it? the legality of 'hacking' a ham radio to operate on non-ham frequencies?

Hacking the radio isn't illegal. Transmit with the hacked radio? Now, that might be another story...or it might not. Depends on the circumstance.

 

[MaximusTheGreat]

On the other hand, the guy who hasn't done a sit-up since 8th-grade gym class

LOVE THAT PART!!!! Lol.

I think we should take a poll on waist measurements and how many sit ups hamsters can do in one sitting... Sitting is the wrong word though...

I'm willing to venture that 46" waist is the min with maybe 2-5 situps amongst Hamsters is the average.

 

[AK9R]

My point was not about over-weight hams. My point was that most of us live in "civilized society", that is, very soft worlds where we rarely have to depend on our own abilities to get out of a jam.

 

[ecps92]

Those that are going to Speed, will Speed
Those that are going to Steal & Rob will...
Those that will MOD a Radio for OoB Use will

Hopefully we will see them in the news and have a good Laugh :roll:

My point was not about over-weight hams. My point was that most of us live in "civilized society", that is, very soft worlds where we rarely have to depend on our own abilities to get out of a jam.

 

[bill4long]

Those that are going to Speed, will Speed
Those that are going to Steal & Rob will...
Those that will MOD a Radio for OoB Use will

Hopefully we will see them in the news and have a good Laugh :roll:

And those who say false-equivalence things such as equating stealing and robbing with unlocking a radio will do that too. And give some of us a good laugh.

 

[DaveNF2G]

And those who say false-equivalence things such as equating stealing and robbing with unlocking a radio will do that too. And give some of us a good laugh.

Various forms of unlawful behavior are not "false equivalences." People who lack respect for themselves, for others, and for rules - or any combination thereof - will feel perfectly comfortable breaking the rules because they can justify it to themselves. Some of them will inevitably confront the consequences of such social ineptitude when they are forced to realize that society does not revolve around their personal rationalizations.

 

[ecps92]

And on that note - time to unsubscribe from this false-hood thread.

Breaking the Law and Pre-mediated Planning to break the law... hmm, never claimed to be a lawyer, but I would guess when someone get's caught they will need to call 800-MAT-LOCK

And those who say false-equivalence things such as equating stealing and robbing with unlocking a radio will do that too. And give some of us a good laugh.

 

[bill4long]

Various forms of unlawful behavior are not "false equivalences." People who lack respect for themselves, for others, and for rules - or any combination thereof - will feel perfectly comfortable breaking the rules because they can justify it to themselves. Some of them will inevitably confront the consequences of such social ineptitude when they are forced to realize that society does not revolve around their personal rationalizations.

It is not unlawful to modify a ham radio so that it will transmit on all the frequencies that it receives on.

It is only unlawful to transmit on frequencies one is not licensed for.

Therefore, unlocking a radio is not the same as robbing and stealing.

Hope that helps.

 

[kayn1n32008]

It is not unlawful to modify a ham radio so that it will transmit on all the frequencies that it receives on.

True

It is only unlawful to transmit on frequencies one is not licensed for.

Not quite. It IS unlawful to program a radio for frequencies you are not authorized to use.

Therefore, unlocking a radio is not the same as robbing and stealing.



Hope that helps.

While modifying the radio is not in itself illegal, programming frequencies you are not authorized to use is illegal, and does go to show premeditation though.

 

[SCPD]

Quote:
"While modifying the radio is not in itself illegal, programming frequencies you are not authorized to use is illegal, and does go to show premeditation though."
.
I respectably disagree... especially when it comes to "frequencies you are not authorized to use." Let me give everyone a hypothetical example -
.
........ I want to "homebrew" (building your own equipment is still legal, isn't it??....) a transverter that operates on on 1296Mhz. It's designed around an transmitter IF input of 150Mhz (150 in, against a 1446 LO,--> 1296Mhz out.) My 150Mhz source is a 136-174Mhz "ham radio." This radio has been "whacked" to operate with an output of 150Mhz-- by the above definition, it is now an 'illegal radio.' I will further assume its mere possession is a violation, for it is clearly "programmed for frequencies (I am) not aurhorized to use" - let alone --by this definition-- it is thereby illegal to use this radio as the transverter's exciter-- for now it will actually **transmit** (horrors! ) upon these unauthorized frequencies.
A "Premeditation of thought"..... ?? This is "Ham Radio"- hams have been doing this for generations- they modifying radios, they build transmitters, (or at least they used to)-- its all part of being a "Ham." If you had enuff of a brain to pass the license exam, then you have enuff of one to (supposedly) know how to use your transmitter legally. The "homebrewing," modifying, etc., of existing equipment is a unique attribute of being a ham- and legally allowed.
.
In all sincerity, tell me how you can divorce modifying a radio from "programming unauthorized frequencies" as in my above example??

.................................CF

 

[bill4long]

It IS unlawful to program a radio for frequencies you are not authorized to use.

Not if you are only receiving. With the exception a some frequencies, such as cell phones. Otherwise, you are incorrect.

While modifying the radio is not in itself illegal, programming frequencies you are not authorized to use is illegal, and does go to show premeditation though.

You are incorrect. If you disagree, cite an FCC source.

For those interested, my policy is to unlock any ham radio I have so that, in the even of a life or death situation, as a last restort, I can use the radio to get help. Doubtful this will happen in this day and age, but it is still possible. Cell phones fail. Repeaters fail. Simplex on ham radio might not have anyone listening. If someone's life is at risk, I'll do whatever it takes to get help, including transmitting on frequencies that I'm not licensed for, including breaking the speed limit in my car, etc. If such an incident ever happens - and I hope it doesn't - that's between me and the authorities. Hard to believe anyone would disagree with this, but if you do, that's your business.

 

[jonwienke]

While modifying the radio is not in itself illegal, programming frequencies you are not authorized to use is illegal, and does go to show premeditation though.

I'm calling BS unless you've got that in writing. Programming a freq into a radio for which one does not have a TX license isn't illegal, TRANSMITTING on that freq is what is illegal. Otherwise everyone who's ever punched a WX freq into the VFO to get a weather report is a felon. And a non-ham studying for their license with a radio programmed with a list of local repeaters would be a felon, too.

No crime has been committed until you key the mic, regardless of what freq numbers are programmed.

 

[bill4long]

I'm calling BS unless you've got that in writing. Programming a freq into a radio for which one does not have a TX license isn't illegal, TRANSMITTING on that freq is what is illegal. Otherwise everyone who's ever punched a WX freq into the VFO to get a weather report is a felon. And a non-ham studying for their license with a radio programmed with a list of local repeaters would be a felon, too.

No crime has been committed until you key the mic, regardless of what freq numbers are programmed.

Well, actually, it's not a felony. Not even a misdemeanor. Except for case of malicious interference, it is a civil violation with civil forfeitures and judgements. I.e, monetary damages and forfeiture of equipment. Just FYI. Otherwise, your point is correct.

 

[kayn1n32008]

Quote:
"While modifying the radio is not in itself illegal, programming frequencies you are not authorized to use is illegal, and does go to show premeditation though."
.
I respectably disagree... especially when it comes to "frequencies you are not authorized to use." Let me give everyone a hypothetical example -
.
........ I want to "homebrew" (building your own equipment is still legal, isn't it??....) a transverter that operates on on 1296Mhz. It's designed around an transmitter IF input of 150Mhz (150 in, against a 1446 LO,--> 1296Mhz out.) My 150Mhz source is a 136-174Mhz "ham radio." This radio has been "whacked" to operate with an output of 150Mhz-- by the above definition, it is now an 'illegal radio.' I will further assume its mere possession is a violation, for it is clearly "programmed for frequencies (I am) not aurhorized to use" - let alone --by this definition-- it is thereby illegal to use this radio as the transverter's exciter-- for now it will actually **transmit** (horrors! ) upon these unauthorized frequencies.
A "Premeditation of thought"..... ?? This is "Ham Radio"- hams have been doing this for generations- they modifying radios, they build transmitters, (or at least they used to)-- its all part of being a "Ham." If you had enuff of a brain to pass the license exam, then you have enuff of one to (supposedly) know how to use your transmitter legally. The "homebrewing," modifying, etc., of existing equipment is a unique attribute of being a ham- and legally allowed.
.
In all sincerity, tell me how you can divorce modifying a radio from "programming unauthorized frequencies" as in my above example??

.................................CF

There is a HUGE difference between using the radio as an oscillator, where the energy is not being radiated through an antenna, vs programming part 90 frequencies to be able to talk to public safety agencies you are not authorized to transmit on. Apples to oranges. I also said that modifying the radio is not illegal. When you key the radio piped into a transverter, you are not radiating the RF to the air.

 

[kayn1n32008]

Not if you are only receiving. With the exception a some frequencies, such as cell phones. Otherwise, you are incorrect.







You are incorrect. If you disagree, cite an FCC source.

Actually yes it is. How about citing 47 CFR Part 90? Is that good enough for you?

§ 90.427 Precautions against unauthorized operation.
(a) Each transmitter shall be so installed and protected that it is not accessible to or capable of operation by persons other than those duly authorized by and under the control of the licensee. Provisions of this part authorizing certain unlicensed persons to operate stations, or authorizing unattended operation of stations in certain circumstances, shall not be construed to change or diminish in any respect the responsibility of station licensees to maintain control over the stations licensed to them (including all transmitter units thereof), or for the proper functioning and operation of those stations and transmitter units in accordance with the terms of the licenses of those stations.

(b) Except for frequencies used in accordance with § 90.417, no person shall program into a transmitter frequencies for which the licensee using the transmitter is not authorized.

[43 FR 54791, Nov. 22, 1978, as amended at 52 FR 47570, Dec. 15, 1987]

There it is, Black and a White, directly from the play book.

As a amateur radio operator(whom does not hold, or is not an agent for a Part 90 licensee) is not authorized to program Part 90 frequencies "which the licensee(Part 97) using the transmitter is not authorized(Part 90)"

Now before you go and say that your radio is a Part 97 radio, once you program Part 90 frequencies, you fall under Part 90.

For those interested, my policy is to unlock any ham radio I have so that, in the even of a life or death situation, as a last restort, I can use the radio to get help. Doubtful this will happen in this day and age, but it is still possible. Cell phones fail. Repeaters fail. Simplex on ham radio might not have anyone listening. If someone's life is at risk, I'll do whatever it takes to get help, including transmitting on frequencies that I'm not licensed for, including breaking the speed limit in my car, etc. If such an incident ever happens - and I hope it doesn't - that's between me and the authorities. Hard to believe anyone would disagree with this, but if you do, that's your business.

You will make a bad situation that much worse by doing so.

I'm calling BS unless you've got that in writing. Programming a freq into a radio for which one does not have a TX license isn't illegal, TRANSMITTING on that freq is what is illegal.

See above directly out of 47 CFR Part 90.

Otherwise everyone who's ever punched a WX freq into the VFO to get a weather report is a felon. And a non-ham studying for their license with a radio programmed with a list of local repeaters would be a felon, too.

Nobody said anything about being a felon. However, if you do not hold a ham license, it may be a violation of 47 CFR 97(I do not know for sure, I'm parked at a rest stop replying to you an the others, and frankly have no desire to search 47 CFR Part 97).

No crime has been committed until you key the mic, regardless of what freq numbers are programmed.

Maybe not a crime per-say, but it is a clear violation of Part 90 regulations, if you have Part 90 frequencies programmed in you radio, regardless of what service the radio is type accepted for.

Well, actually, it's not a felony. Not even a misdemeanor. Except for case of malicious interference, it is a civil violation with civil forfeitures and judgements. I.e, monetary damages and forfeiture of equipment. Just FYI. Otherwise, your point is correct.

No, his point is not correct, in any part of it.

 

[bill4long]

Actually yes it is. How about citing 47 CFR Part 90? Is that good enough for you?

Nope. You failed to read the very first paragraph of 90.401:

Scope. The subpart prescribes general operating requirements for stations licensed under this part.

Fail.

As a amateur radio operator(whom does not hold, or is not an agent for a Part 90 licensee) is not authorized to program Part 90 frequencies "which the licensee(Part 97) using the transmitter is not authorized(Part 90)"

Forget about being a ham radio operator. If what you are saying is true, anyone in possession of a Motorola GM-300 that has part 90 frequencies programmed into would be in violation. But, as 90.401 clearly indicates, the section you quote only applies to "stations licensed under this part."

You will make a bad situation that much worse by doing so.

I disagree. You apparently have no appreciation for the phrase "last resort."

If you think using an unlicensed frequency as a last resort to save a life is making the situation worse, I have nothing left to say to you.

 

[SCPD]

This is turning out to be a fun day!
.
(I have to put that into context....I am sitting in a drafty government double-wide out in the middle of a Nevada desert, the wind is blowing a 20knot 'Zephyr' while the mercury is at a toasty 19F... you can calculate the wind chill..... all this while we put "Big Xenna"- a hi- power'd X-band 3D radar thru 'her' first series of tests.... 'she' "knocks the snot" (one of our Tech's colourful phrases ) out of all Ku band TV Sat's feeds etc., and, if it doesn't come over a slow EtherNet it doesn't 'entertain' us out here...)
.
Cut to the chase... I have been sharing this Post, on and off for the last few days, with some of the others cooped up in these 'boxes'- a bunch of tech's and engineers; ---- their comments have been priceless---
.
But I'll spare you details.
.
....Their observations all seem to come down to saying that a lot of energy is being wasted on fighting a couple windmills (kayn1n - in particular).
.
Barbi (her nickname) - just said:
.
"Lauri, you and your friends have all taken his bait!... Some people just like to argue for the sake of an argument. Give it up, Boss--- there are just people out there that would argue with a (tree) stump--- and this over nothing, Nothing! You all are not going to wear those type down"
.
another, an ex-military Tech, grunted these words: "sea lawyer"
.
.
------------------hey, nothing personal here from me Guys......
.
Meanwhile, this Forum has done wonderfully to help past the time-- we don't have a good enuff internet connection to stream video's... and this beats watching the bunch of equipment displays that don't have to be baby-sat.... by the way, where's my magazine?.. (as we await the next Post here.......................... )
.
..............................................CF

 

[N8OHU]

Nope. You failed to read the very first paragraph of 90.401:

Scope. The subpart prescribes general operating requirements for stations licensed under this part.

Fail.



Forget about being a ham radio operator. If what you are saying is true, anyone in possession of a Motorola GM-300 that has part 90 frequencies programmed into would be in violation. But, as 90.401 clearly indicates, the section you quote only applies to "stations licensed under this part."

If you transmit on Part 90 frequencies without authorization, you're in violation of the rules, and potentially could face charges under local or state law.

I disagree. You apparently have no appreciation for the phrase "last resort."

If you think using an unlicensed frequency as a last resort to save a life is making the situation worse, I have nothing left to say to you.

I suspect he's saying it should never even be a consideration to do, which I agree with.

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk

 

[kayn1n32008]

I suspect he's saying it should never even be a consideration to do, which I agree with.

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk

Exactly, because you should have the correct tools for the job at hand. In the back country (the ORIGINAL scenario put forward by RFI-EMI-GUY that kicked this whole thread sideways) injury situation(that was actually not a life and earth scenario) a FPP LMR portable, or a modified ham radio to call on local Public safety frequencies, is not the correct tool. You should be more prepared than that. You know, do a proper risk analysis, and conclusion is that a PLB, SPOT or sat-phone is the correct tool to have at your disposal when going into an area that does not have ham repeater coverage, or cellular coverage.

Doing a proper risk analysis completely eliminates this whole 97.403 argument, because you would know what the proper tools you need are.

Ultimately, of someone does decide to use their modified radio or a pre-programmed/FPP LMR portable to call for help on public safety frequencies, you face potentially life altering consequences from prosecution under state/local laws. Like the potential to have to defend yourself in court against possible misdemeanour and/or felony charges and making your favourite lawyer a lot of money you probably can't afford to give him. Over and above what ever the FCC decides to do to you.

 

[bill4long]

If you transmit on Part 90 frequencies without authorization, you're in violation of the rules, and potentially could face charges under local or state law.

I agree. But that's not the particular point I was addressing. Feel free to re-read the complete posts that I wrote.

I suspect he's saying it should never even be a consideration to do, which I agree with.

Not even as a last resort to save a life? If not, I have nothing else to say to you.