Is the Blocked Cellular Freq range on Scanners still needed?

Is the Blocked Cellular Freq range on Scanners still needed?

  • Yes, this range should be blocked forever as cell phone monitoring is bad.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
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WayneH

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Telephone interconnects and Nextel, regardless of who they call, don't make the call illegal and relevant to the ECPA. PERIOD.

Milf, we don't need THREE posts of the same information, as long as it was. Geez!

-Wayne
 

INDY72

Monitoring since 1982, using radios since 1991.
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TY for that info! Nextel is basically a moot point anyway except for the very few analog sites still around, since most of it and SoLinc are iDen. Also in that list, AirInc.....
 
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N_Jay

Guest
milf said:
Thats why a few months ago I made that thread "What can not be heard on a scanner"

VSELP, iDen, Provoice, cellular, IP based P-25 we can't hear cause its not OTA, encrypted (DUH), and just to make sure we all agree- TETRA, and OpenSky. Not sure if the few MPT's can be scanned or not.

True, but that thread continued to use the same misnomers for many of the systems that have caused much of this confusion.

If we all take a step back and try to both explain and understand this issue at a basic level it will help everyone.
 

rescue161

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KT4HX said:
Actually I didn't vote cause my choice isn't there. I would have to say though I am in favor of open airways, I've honestly never found anything worth listening to in the cell range. I used to have a couple that I modified, but soon lost interest due to boredom. Perhaps others have had better luck at hearing something interesting. There are still some analog phones most everywhere I think, but definitely not as many.

Best thing I ever heard was 2 lesbians breaking up... One was upset and was going to tell the others parents that she was gay. Both got upset and the whole thing blew up. We were mobile, so we'd loose them, but I found them fairly quick. Wife got mad when I couldn't find them any more... lol This was years ago, so it's rare to even hear any one any more.
 

rescue161

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Well, compared to 10-15 years ago, it is quite dead. You actually have to scan for a conversation. Back in the day, all you had to do was turn it on and BAM, there was a conversation.

No one has to tell me, I know first hand... :roll:
 

STiMULi

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I was trying to give you an out for admitting that you are breaking the law and risking your amateur license, but then again it really doesn't matter to me... :) Scan away! :lol:

You could even get that dreaded letter from Mr. Hollingsworth :shock:

j/k
 

rescue161

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Notice where I am... US laws do not apply to me. :lol:

Just to clarify, I have a US call sign, but have not lived in the states for a while now. I'm in the military and travel frequently. The US is the only one that I know of that prohibits the cell frequencies from being in a scanner.

Heck, here in Spain, they use a totally different spectrum.
 

STiMULi

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I thought I would stir up the **** in this topic again...

Found this on the FCC site (excerpted)

http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Public_Notices/1997/da971440.txt

"Use of scanners by individuals to intercept and divulge or use beneficially wireless
telephone conversations (not just cellular conversations) without authorization is
generally prohibited by Section 705(a) of the Act, 47 U.S.C.  605(a). Administrative
forfeitures may be imposed for such violations. Violations of this provision may also be
referred to the Department of Justice for possible criminal prosecution. In addition,
Section 705(e)(4) of the Communications Act prohibits the manufacture, assembly,
modification, import, export, sale or distribution of any scanner that is intended for an
activity prohibited by Section 705(a). Violations of this provision will also be referred to
the Department of Justice for possible criminal prosecution.

Other Federal and State statutes also apply in this area. For more information
regarding the interception and divulgence of radio communications, see FCC FACT
SHEET, "Interception and Divulgence of Radio Communications," dated January 1997,
which can be obtained by calling the Public Service Division at 202-418-0200 or
accessing it on the Commission Internet web site at
http://www.fcc.gov/Consumer_Info.html/. "
 
N

N_Jay

Guest
STiMULi said:
I thought I would stir up the **** in this topic again...

Found this on the FCC site (excerpted)

http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Public_Notices/1997/da971440.txt

"Use of scanners by individuals to intercept and divulge or use beneficially wireless
telephone conversations (not just cellular conversations) without authorization is
generally prohibited by Section 705(a) of the Act, 47 U.S.C.  605(a). Administrative
forfeitures may be imposed for such violations. Violations of this provision may also be
referred to the Department of Justice for possible criminal prosecution. In addition,
Section 705(e)(4) of the Communications Act prohibits the manufacture, assembly,
modification, import, export, sale or distribution of any scanner that is intended for an
activity prohibited by Section 705(a). Violations of this provision will also be referred to
the Department of Justice for possible criminal prosecution.

Other Federal and State statutes also apply in this area. For more information
regarding the interception and divulgence of radio communications, see FCC FACT
SHEET, "Interception and Divulgence of Radio Communications," dated January 1997,
which can be obtained by calling the Public Service Division at 202-418-0200 or
accessing it on the Commission Internet web site at
http://www.fcc.gov/Consumer_Info.html/. "

' . . . to intercept AND divulge or use beneficially . . "
 

STiMULi

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N_Jay said:
' . . . to intercept AND divulge or use beneficially . . "

Is divulging the act of discussing the content of the intercept or discussing the fact that an intercept has occured?

Things that make you go Hmmmmm :)
 

unitcharlie

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this is the artcile from the society of professional journalists rag about the orginis.... note the date.


from: http://www.spj.org/news.asp?REF=187
Use of police scanners threatened

FOI Alert Volume 2, Issue 16 (1996-97)
9/16/1997

The Wireless Privacy Enhancement Act of 1997 (HR 2369) could take away one of the necessary tools of the newsroom: the police scanner.

If passed in its current version, the bill would make it illegal for journalists to monitor police and fire scanners -- about as necessary in a newsroom as is the pen and notebook.

"It's particularly severe legislation," said Bruce Brown, one of SPJ's attorneys at Baker & Hostetler. "It's the mere act of intercepting the communication that's illegal not the republication of the material."

The legislation introduced in July comes from U.S. Rep. Billy Tauzin, R-La., who is chairman of the House Telecommunications Subcommittee.

Tauzin was most offended by a Florida couple's taping of Newt Gingrich's cellular telephone call. John and Alice Martin, of Gainesville, Fla., taped the call and turned it over to a ranking Democrat on the House ethics committee.

The New York Times printed a transcript of the conversation.

Republicans became incensed on the taping and public release of the conversation.

The Martins, who admit to being staunch Democrats, said at a news conference early this year that their fascination with national politics and monitoring a police scanner converged Dec. 21 while on a Christmas shopping trip.

They overheard a phone conversation that morning and began taping it with a recorder kept in their car. That conference call included Gingrich, Rep. Dick Armey of Texas, Rep. John Boehner of Ohio, and several other Republican leaders.

Boehner was using his cell phone while vacationing in Florida.

Intercepting and recording cellular telephone calls is already a violation of state and federal laws.

But Tauzin's legislation will have a broad reach -- he quotes figures suggesting that more than 43 million Americans subscribe to cellular or other commercial mobile radio services. He believes as many as 10 million Americans may be listening to those conversations with modified scanners.

Those who have home scanners were the first to protest.

Scanners are affected along with amateur and shortwave radios equipped with general coverage receivers, business and police band radios, even some car radios, according to an August article posted on the Kentucky Scanner Enthusiasts Page.

The article says HR 2369 and HR 1964 also directs the Federal Communications Commission, which reviews all electronic devices sold in the U.S., to refuse certification of radios capable of receiving Commercial Radio Service frequencies.

Excessive fines are proposed: up to $500,000 and five years in jail.

"Virtually, everyone who owns a receiver is affected. Members of the press, businesses, hobbyists, and the public at large will be completely banned from listening."

Another article in Pressing Issues, published in Salt Lake City, Utah, says the radio spectrum is a public resource.

"Appropriate measures should exist in law to protect the privacy of radio communications, but HR 2369 is so broad in its scope that it not only has the potential to choke off what it purports to protect, but arguably curtails the ability of communities to protect themselves from those who would use the airwaves to facilitate illegal activity."

For more information on the scanner legislation, check:

http://www.ggw.org/nf2g

Monitoring Times magazine
 
N

N_Jay

Guest
STiMULi said:
N_Jay said:
' . . . to intercept AND divulge or use beneficially . . "

Is divulging the act of discussing the content of the intercept or discussing the fact that an intercept has occured?

Things that make you go Hmmmmm :)


Not being a lawer, I would say divullging the content.
 

chris451rr

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Location
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Get rid of cellular blocking

Hello, I am an Amateur Radio operator, Scanner enthusiast and have worked in RF/Radio/Optical fields
for 30 years. I suggest as many of you (scanner enthusiasts) as possible write to your
US representative to eliminate the rules that prevent reception of 'analog cellular''
since it no longer exists and there are many good reasons to have access to these bands.
And despite all the rulemaking 'analog cellular' was never protected nor can it be.

It has been my observation that Cellular Blocking no longer serves any useful purpose,
due to the conversion of this band to a complete digtital format (CDMA) which is
self protecting from casual listeners, since narrow band analog receivers will not
demodulate a cdma signal into any type of data or audio.
They do not contain any of the components required to do so,
such as I/Q downconverters, d/a converters, cdma chipsets, digital controlled agc,
and numerically controlled oscillators needed to syncronize and demodulate the
CDMA. Pretty useless for performing the task 'monitor digital cellular' basically they
just won't do it.

The laws of 1998 state that a decoder for digital cellular may not be attached to such
radios. Such a device does not exist and would not work with the narrow band IF
found in these receivers. CDMA is 1.2mhz wide. The radio IF is 15 or 200 khz wide.
Cdma is a code spread siganl with an actual data rate of 144kb/second
The part 15 radio will not despread the signal and will not receive, or demodulate the 'data stream'.
The rules restrict manufacture of such devices as well as frequency converters.
There are plenty of people who can build converters from scratch, so despite the many
steps taken in the 1998 rules there was little 'protection' for analog cellular.


It is clear to me that if you want protected private communications you will need
encryption from end to end including the portion which travels over PSTN.
This is what the US government does for its 'secure' programs and communication.

From what little research I've done on digital cellular CDMA is encoded with a
code spreading signal but not encrypted . In IS-2000 there is some mention of
adding encryption to the signal, perhaps in user authentication and perhaps it
has an option to encrypt the voice codec data.
It would require a change of software to add encryption to the CDMA signals,
and is very easy to accomplish with a digital signal. If the goal really is protecting cellular calls, then
this would assure privacy.

GSM is encrypted (according to some light reading I've done ) also it has frequency hopping.
There appear to be no instances of anyone using a 'scanning receiver'
having the ability to 'monitor' the GSM calls. When GSM appeard in Europe the scanner
enthusiasts there wanted to know how to pick up the calls. They got no answer.

The fact that the rules never required any encryption be placed on analog cell signals
is probably because the cell carriers lobbied against it. I can tell you I never read
credit card numbers over analog cell phones. There was no protection.

There have been no complaints or instances of phone call recording or interception by the use of 'scanning recievers' for the new 'cdma' cell signals.

I have many uses for these frequency ranges which were blocked.
This blocking has caused more than the cell band to be blocked, thus some radios
were not useful on other legitamate public safety frequencies.
I'm paying for em, so I'm going to monitor what ever I want there.

It is unreasonable to say that cell communications are protected by blocking these
frequencies. The only protection in reality is legal consequences if the contents of these
communications were revealed publically (as they were in a prominent politician's case
under existing laws)
and under which law the perpetrators were prosecuted and punished under.

More than cell bands were blocked on several radios.
Erroneous band edges were blocked on some radios.
I use these bands for finding interference, testing filters and antennas,
determining technology in use, use them for closed systems and cable TV applications.
My freq counters need this band to be useful with generators and sweepers and synthesizer
trouble shooting. This so called cell block has no effect on my ability to listen
to cell band, since I own many receivers that get this band, I consider it
an act of political vandalism - did it really protect analog cellular? No it was
meant to frighten those who violate communications act of 1934 about monitoring
telephone calls taking place over the radio phones.
The new IS-95 digital cdma cellular does much to 'protect' these transmissions
from reception by analog receiver. I have written my representative
to remove the requirement for these rules, (part 15 type acceptance of receivers)
which says block reception of cell signals. This no longer serves any purpose.
If the goal is to protect cellular communication then that would require encryption
which can easily be added to the cellular standards. Right now the only capability to
monitor cdma cellular is with test equipment or million dollar monitoring systems
which are only sold to government agencies. No where in this picture to the part 15
receiver play any part. Things Uniden did to comply with this rule make their radios
unservicable other than to send it in and swap boards. Thats how they fix their
products. My radios that predate all this rulemaking, are very servicable and completely
documented and parts are available. The radios that post date this are not provided with
service info or any support that allows techs and amateur radio operators to
modify them to further the radio art (which the fcc states is their charter).
Those of us who study the FCC rules are well aware of the rules that already existed
before "cell blocking" which say its illegal to divulge these communications.
The additional rules and measures that were added are now obsolete.
My surveys indicate there is no analog cellular in the US and all the AMPS base stations
have been changed out to CDMA along with handsets.
The pathway to 'monitoring' these handsets I think lies with modified software in cellphones.
but this could be stopped with almost any rudimentary voice and data encryption which is very easy to
add to an already digital system.
So if they say they are protecting cellular communications with this rule that is not true.
The pathway to that is with encryption.
If they say they need to continue to block cellular to prevent monitoring, then
please show me where I can buy a CDMA decoder. They do not exist, except they are
very common in used handsets. All it takes is the unencrypted CDMA signal and the
chipset in many cellphones, and test or modified software. Nowhere in any of this is
a part 15 receiver needed or useful. To decode a CDMA signal see the IS-95 specifications.
It requires DSP chips I/Q demodulators code correlators numerically controlled oscillators
none of which are found in analog scanners nor in P25 scanners. All that can be done with
these is as I state earlier, testing, closed (cable) systems, and interference mitigation.
I have found numerous holes in enforcement and compliance with these rules.
Since new radios that cover 1.8-2.0ghz have no 'cell blocks' for PCS which was always
'digital cellular' then why continue to 'cell block' 823-847 and 869-894 since its all CDMA.
This is an obsolete rule. The pathway to getting rid of it would be to
contact your US representative and ask them to remove this obsolete regulation.
They presumably would do so and then inform the FCC to change their rulemaking.
I have sent a rather long letter to my representative about this matter. If you want to look up
the specifics see these on google, FCC and Thomas register.
Your help is needed to get rid of these obsolete regulations, for the reasons stated above.

[CITE: 47USC302a]

[Page 106-108]

TITLE 47--TELEGRAPHS, TELEPHONES, AND RADIOTELEGRAPHS

CHAPTER 5--WIRE OR RADIO COMMUNICATION

SUBCHAPTER III--SPECIAL PROVISIONS RELATING TO RADIO

Part I--General Provisions

(d) Cellular telecommunications receivers

(1) Within 180 days after October 28, 1992, the Commission shall
prescribe and make effective regulations denying equipment authorization
(under part 15 of title 47, Code of Federal Regulations, or any other
part of that title) for any scanning receiver that is capable of--
(A) receiving transmissions in the frequencies allocated to the
domestic cellular radio telecommunications service,
(B) readily being altered by the user to receive transmissions
in such frequencies, or
(C) being equipped with decoders that convert digital cellular
transmissions to analog voice audio.

(2) Beginning 1 year after the effective date of the regulations
adopted pursuant to paragraph (1), no receiver having the capabilities
described in subparagraph (A), (B), or (C) of paragraph (1), as such
capabilities are defined in such regulations, shall be manufactured in
the United States or imported for use in the United States.

(e) Delegation of equipment testing and certification to private
laboratories

The Commission may--
(1) authorize the use of private organizations for testing and
certifying the compliance of devices or home electronic equipment
and systems with regulations promulgated under this section;
(2) accept as prima facie evidence of such compliance the
certification by any such organization; and
(3) establish such qualifications and standards as it deems
appropriate for such private organizations, testing, and
certification.



Before the
Federal Communications Commission
Washington, D.C. 20554

In the Matter of )
)
)
Amendment of Parts 2 and 15 of the )
Commissions Rules to Further Ensure ) ET Docket 98-76
That Scanning Receivers Do Not ) RM-9022
Receive Cellular Radio Signals


chris451 at hotmail dotcom
 

gunsrus

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Wiretapping

It is not illegal to listen to a phone conversation either Radio or wireline. What is illegal is to disclose or act upon information based upon what was heard. They could have legally listened all they wanted if they were licensed without prosecution.
 

Baylink

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It is not illegal to listen to a phone conversation either Radio or wireline. What is illegal is to disclose or act upon information based upon what was heard. They could have legally listened all they wanted if they were licensed without prosecution.

In fact, no, that wasn't true: the law that required manufacturers to block the range *also* made it illegal *to listen at all*, regardless what you did with the information, unless I'm very much mistaken

It's moot now, since all analog cell services have been terminated by FCC.
 

spdfile1

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I think that most likely at some point the restriction will be lifted and scanner's will be open to the ex-cell freq.'s. What makes sense to me is there still closed because it is not important enough and that there are still analog phones floating around (suprisingly)!!! I bet that if you ask some of these scanner manufacturers in reality if they know of the fact that the cellular bands are blocked they heard something about it but thats as far as there knowledge goes. And what about cordless phones down on 46 & 49 Mhz?!?!?!? They were never blocked and you probably knew exactly who you were hearing if you knew your neighbors. Of course 46 & 49 Mhz cordless phones have long been a thing of the past. And one more reason that ex cell phone freq.'s should be unblocked is scanners are so easily modifiable these days that if there a will there's a way!!!!!!
 

Baylink

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There may be AMPS phones floating around (though I'd bet none with workable nor replaceable NiCds), but *there is no network to talk to*: FCC allowed the carriers to shut down Analog AMPS as of 18-Feb-2008, and so far as I'm aware, there is no longer an operating A-AMPS base station anywhere in the world.

I don't *think* it's early digital counterpart, D-AMPS, is functional anymore either; all the D-AMPS (or TDMA) systems have been replaced with either CDMA or GSM.

As for "easily modifiable", no, the FCC caught on to that quickly. I don't know if any manufacturers who made it "cut a jumper" rather than "unsolder and replace the CPU" ever actually *got* sanctioned for it, but I understand some threats were made...

But in fact, the reason that block was required is now long since history, and manufacturers should be the first people in line to lobby Congress to pull the block.
 

spdfile1

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There may be AMPS phones floating around (though I'd bet none with workable nor replaceable NiCds), but *there is no network to talk to*: FCC allowed the carriers to shut down Analog AMPS as of 18-Feb-2008, and so far as I'm aware, there is no longer an operating A-AMPS base station anywhere in the world.

I don't *think* it's early digital counterpart, D-AMPS, is functional anymore either; all the D-AMPS (or TDMA) systems have been replaced with either CDMA or GSM.

As for "easily modifiable", no, the FCC caught on to that quickly. I don't know if any manufacturers who made it "cut a jumper" rather than "unsolder and replace the CPU" ever actually *got* sanctioned for it, but I understand some threats were made...

But in fact, the reason that block was required is now long since history, and manufacturers should be the first people in line to lobby Congress to pull the block.

Baylink,
It seems like (at least when you search on the internet) that just about every scanner with a little bit of time on it has a procedure to modify it. Not all of course, but I bet if I looked hard enough I can find something on the several I own. There's even people advertising on the internet that they will modify it for you at a cost of course. I mean if someone wants to monitor a particular thing bad enough I believe they'll make it happen. I know I would.
 

killergorilla

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Is there a digital scanner capable of scanning and recieving digital cell phone signals? Just wondering whats out there...and what capabilities you can and cannot get?
 
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