Jackson County Radio system upgrade

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JRayfield

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MTS2000des

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NOT true. There is NO mandate for what you call 'very narrow bandwidth'. The FCC has NOT set such a date.

After 1/1/2011, no one will be able to manufacture or import any radio that is capable of operating 'wideband' (25 khz). Only radios that operate at 12.5 khz or less will be legal to manufacture or import.

After 1/1/2011, the FCC will not issue any type cerfications for any new radios (that have not been type certified prior to 1/1/2011) if those radios do not have a 6.25 khz, or 6.25 khz equivalent, mode in them.

MotoTRBO (DMR) is considered 6.25 khz equivalent, as it provides 2 voice/data channels, at a rate of at least 4800 bps each, within 12.5 khz.

The cost of MotoTRBO radios is LESS than comparably-tiered analog-only radios (for example comparing them to the CDM and HT series radios). The repeaters are only slighly more than comparably-tiered analog-only repeaters, and when the fact that the repeater provides two 'talk channels' for that price, they actually cost less than analog-only repeaters. This means that an agency/company can install a MotoTRBO system for about the same, or less cost, as compared to an analog-only system (not including any microwave or other data network equipment to tie the repeaters together).

John Rayfield, Jr.

The problem with using a system like MotoTRBO is it is not APCO25 compliant, and thus, doesn't allow an agency to qualify for SAFECOM grants. No P25= no Federal funding. Stupid move. Especially considering everyone else in the state who is going digital IS migrating towards Project 25 phase I compliant systems and most are using grant money to fund it.

And using a system designed for BUSINESS/SMR use for public safety is a BAD IDEA. Didn't Motorola lean this back in the late 80's when they sold many Privacy Plus systems to public safety agencies (which lacked even Project 16 compliant features such as emergency call, priority access, etc) and wound up taking some serious hits for this until they had a product ready for public safety (and thus, Smartnet I was born).

The cost justification is a stupid excuse if it puts life safety users at risk. There is a reason why public safety radio systems and associated hardware cost what they do. Yes, much of it is profit, but it is also because the products are designed for applications in which less expensive consumer grade hardware is not. I always get annoyed at the ignorant people who compare things like cellphones to public safety radios cost metrics. It's akin to comparing surgical tools to nail clippers. Get serious, people's lives depend on this stuff to work.

If an agency cannot afford a new system designed from the ground up for mission critical life safety use (e.g. Astro 25) then they should invest in upgrading their existing analog system to meet narrowband requirements and stay where they are and save their money instead of this MotoTURDO crap that isn't designed for the intended application. Using MotoTURDO for public safety is about as retarded as using iDEN. Ask the city of Birmingham about that.

10 years and millions of dollars, "network trouble" "user unavailable" "error 581" and officers on the side of the road not being able to talk, what did they do?

they bought a REAL P25 public safety grade 800MHz Astro 25 system. and they are safer and smarter for doing so.
 

1268

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They aren't licensed for MotoTRBO (DMR). MotoTRBO uses 7K60FXE (voice) and 7K60FXD (data).

John Rayfield, Jr.

I have the radio sitting on my desk with all the info...it's mototrbo all the way.6550 model

Also from the license :

MOBILE COMMUNICATIONS
LLOYD CHESTER
526 OAK STREET
GAINESVILLE, GA 30501


P:(770)536-2066
F:(770)531-9162
E:lloydchester@callmc.com

That's a Motorola dealer.
 
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micco

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I get the impression that Mr. Rayfield works for Motorola...

MotoTRBO was NOT designed NOR intended to be used in a public safety environment. I am waiting for the day when one of these systems are implemented and a public safety official gets hurt or killed. Motorola will be free and clear because they have made it known that MotoTRBO is NOT for public safety. The salesmen that are selling these things to public safety agencies should consider putting a attorney on retainer. Misrepresenting a product in a mission critical environment, I can hear lawyers salivating over this one...
 

MTS2000des

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I get the impression that Mr. Rayfield works for Motorola...

MotoTRBO was NOT designed NOR intended to be used in a public safety environment. I am waiting for the day when one of these systems are implemented and a public safety official gets hurt or killed. Motorola will be free and clear because they have made it known that MotoTRBO is NOT for public safety. The salesmen that are selling these things to public safety agencies should consider putting a attorney on retainer. Misrepresenting a product in a mission critical environment, I can hear lawyers salivating over this one...

but salesman are going hungry because agencies like Jackson county WANT to buy a digital P25 system like Astro 25 but they can only AFFORD some lightweight ESMR crap like MotoTRBO, I call it crap because for this application it is. Any ethical salesman who cares about sleeping at night would NEVER sell a product like this to a public safety agency as it is not right for the task.

Not the first time Motorola has been down this road. If you recall in the mid to late 1980's when Privacy Plus trunking was at it's prime, many agencies wanted the capacity of trunking systems and bid for them. They also found out how trunking systems can become dangerous when they lack features such as priority access, emergency call, regrouping, status alerting, etc. Henceforth why APCO Project 16 was born.

Is MotoTRBO even APCO 16 compliant? No. If it isn't it shouldn't even be considered nor should any other competing business/ESMR radio network topology such as iDEN/Harmony/Melody, NXDN, LTR, SmarTrunk, etc.

Lawyers, yeah, I can see this guy making some cash off the dead bodies of people who gave their lives due to inadequate equipment.

GA Personal Injury Attorney, Georgia Personal Injury Attorney, Car Wreck Attorney/

But in the end, dead bodies of public safety workers leave the blood on the hands of the customers who bid on this junk as much as those who peddle it unscrupulously. You have to hold Jackson county as accountable as those who sold them on it. After all they are the ones who will ultimately have to answer to the families, citizens and media when it fails. Then everyone will see what a bad decision cost cutting is when it comes to public safety radio.
 

JRayfield

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I have the radio sitting on my desk with all the info...it's mototrbo all the way.6550 model

Also from the license :

MOBILE COMMUNICATIONS
LLOYD CHESTER
526 OAK STREET
GAINESVILLE, GA 30501


P:(770)536-2066
F:(770)531-9162
E:lloydchester@callmc.com

That's a Motorola dealer.

Then this was licensed wrong. It should have been licensed as 7K60.

John Rayfield, Jr.
 
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JRayfield

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MotoTRBO is not just designed for business/industrial. Motorola is not saying that it is only for business use. They are saying that it is a solution for some public safety agencies. I spent almost 3 hours today with 2 Motorola people (direct side, not dealers) and they said this themselves.

MotoTRBO works much better than any analog radio system that I've seen anywhere, with excellent dependability. The radio equipment itself meets (or exceeds) the same mil-specs that other Motorola (and other brand) analog-only radios meet. A MotoTRBO radio is just as good for 'mission critical' applications as an HT1250, which has been used by many public safety agencies with excellent results. To say that MotoTRBO is 'bad' for public safety, because it doesn't do everything that P25 does, is like saying that all of the thousands of existing conventional analog equipment and systems, all over the world, are 'bad' for public safety - the same technology that has been sold for public safety and been used for public safety, for many years.

As to MotoTRBO and APCO 16, I haven't looked at the specific 'feature set' of APCO 16 to see if MotoTRBO meets those 'specs' or not. But, I don't think that the existing analog 'public safety' systems meet APCO 16 either and I don't see anyone 'badmouthing' analog because of this.

As to MotoTRBO systems being implemented for public safety - they already have been - numerous systems around the country. And so far, the feedback from users is that they work very well - 100% satisfaction from the ones that I've personally spoken with. On the other hand, I just recently spoke with a user (911 director) of a very large P25 system, and she told me that they're almost ready to go back to analog, because they're so unhappy with how the P25 system works (or more correctly, does not work).

And I do not work for Motorola. I am a dealer. And I'm a very experienced tech - 32 years working with commercial 2-way radio, 21 years computer programming, hardware and software design (customers such as the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Puma County Arizona, Washington Department of Transportation, Hyundai, and many smaller public safety agencies), beta testing new products for a number of communications manufacturers since the early 1990's, and I hold an ETA Master Technician Certification (less than 270 Master-Certified Technicians, worldwide, out of over 100,000 total ETA-certified techs). I look at things first from a 'technical' standpoint, and second from a 'sales' standpoint (if at all).

P25 (and specifically, trunking) is ideal for many agencies. If everyone in the country could use P25 trunking, then that would be ideal. But there just isn't enough money for that to happen - at least not for quite a while. I agree that money should NOT be involved in public safety agencies choosing what technology to use. But, the 'fact of life' is that it is involved. We have a customer who couldn't afford to spend $500 to replace an old wide-band mobile radio that definitely should be replaced. Instead, they said to see what we could to to fix it. This is a sheriff's department. But they're in a VERY 'poor' county and they just don't have the money that they need for better communications. They have 2 repeaters, and one has been down for almost 1 year and they don't have the money to have it fixed. And counties like this can't get anywhere near enough grant money, in most cases, to implement the infrastructure necessary for P25 trunking. It's a very bad situation for these counties. Something like MotoTRBO, or NEXEDEGE, is a major step 'up' for any county that can't come up with the money for P25 trunking, to have better communications.

You talk about someone losing their lives due to a MotoTRBO system - "inadequate equipment", you call it. What about the 'crummy' analog systems that many of these agencies are currently using? Some of these officers are depending upon old, poorly operating, analog systems that just aren't 'good enough' for the situations that they face. And the costs to make these systems even begin to work better, will cost as much as new MotoTRBO or NEXEDGE systems. Personally, I don't understand it when someone insists that such agencies should keep using their analog systems, because they can't afford P25 systems. And that's exactly what's happening when someone says that those agencies shouldn't use "crap like MotoTRBO". If they flat out don't have the money for P25 systems that would fix their communictions problems, then what are they supposed to do if they don't consider something like MotoTRBO or NEXEDGE? The only answer is that they keep using their analog systems. And that is definitely putting officers in 'harms way', in many cases.

By the way, the P25 conventional 'spec' does not provide for wide-area roaming, which many large rural counties need. Simulcast can work, but it's expensive and doesn't work as well as roaming (assuming enough frequencies are available for such a system). Only P25 trunking (and MotoTRBO and NEXEDGE) offer this capability. So P25 conventional is not a 'good' solution for many large rural public safety agencies.

John Rayfield, Jr. - CETma
 

N8IAA

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J. Rayfield definitely eats, drinks, and sleeps with /\/\otherola:roll: Amazing how someone from Missouri knows what is needed in N Georgia. I understand the need for Jackson's public safety personel to have a more complete system to serve the county better. I don't think that having a system that excludes the public is good for anyone. Paranoia is used to "scare" officials into thinking that it is wiser to hide normal operations, traffic stops, wrecks (which seem the normal on Jackson County's stretch of I-85) and other mundane daily activities, behind quasi-encryption. Hopefully, the wake-up call will not invovle loss of life for fire or pd. Common sense needs to be served up at all levels of government.
Larry
 

JRayfield

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J. Rayfield definitely eats, drinks, and sleeps with /\/\otherola:roll: Amazing how someone from Missouri knows what is needed in N Georgia. I understand the need for Jackson's public safety personel to have a more complete system to serve the county better. I don't think that having a system that excludes the public is good for anyone. Paranoia is used to "scare" officials into thinking that it is wiser to hide normal operations, traffic stops, wrecks (which seem the normal on Jackson County's stretch of I-85) and other mundane daily activities, behind quasi-encryption. Hopefully, the wake-up call will not invovle loss of life for fire or pd. Common sense needs to be served up at all levels of government.
Larry

I mentioned NEXEDGE numerous times in my previous post, too. I know a lot more about MotoTRBO, but either system works well (from what I've heard about NEXEDGE). From a purely technical standpoint, I do think DMR has some major advantages over NEXEDGE. Of course, there are technically-knowledgable people who would say that same about NEXEDGE vs. MotoTRBO.

So you think that it's strange that a person in Missouri would have an idea as to what someone in N. GA needs, huh? Well let's see - I was able to help the Royal Canadian Mounted Police with a communications problem in Saskatchewan and the DOT people in Washington State and Hyundai in S. Korea. Somehow, I can't see how N. GA would be much harder to know how to help - but I could be wrong.

You bring up something that I've suspected is at the 'root' of a lot of 'anger' over MotoTRBO and NEXEDGE, especially by those who like to listen to public safety communications - the fact that no one can monitor these systems (yet). And, honestly, that has been brought up even by some public safety agency personnel. Some agencies already use scrambling, and if they move to P25, they can use digital encryption. Some would like to be 'scrambled', but can't afford the cost of add-on scramblers. (By the way, MotoTRBO includes digital encryption as a 'standard' feature). Others would prefer to have the public listening. It all boils down to who you talk with and their personal preferences. I suspect that, someday, there will be scanners to monitor DMR. It's becoming a very popular protocol, worldwide (for business and public safety - it was used at the G8 Summit in Europe). And more and more manufacturers are working on DMR equipment (MotoTRBO compatible). I think it's just a matter of time, before someone like GRE comes out with a scanner for this protocol. Personally, I think they should do it, and the sooner the better.

John Rayfield, Jr. - CETma
 

Camper299

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When can all of ya'll get your information correct. I work for Jackson County and also the communications for Jackson County. How do you know whats going on in Jackson county when plans have not even been implemented. We are currently licensed in the UHF spectrum. If anyone is concerned about this system I would be glad to dicuss this system with you.

TK
 

nunyax

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When can all of ya'll get your information correct. I work for Jackson County and also the communications for Jackson County. How do you know whats going on in Jackson county when plans have not even been implemented

Well, what ARE the "plans" that "have not even been implemented?"
 

MTS2000des

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MotoTRBO is not just designed for business/industrial. Motorola is not saying that it is only for business use. They are saying that it is a solution for some public safety agencies. I spent almost 3 hours today with 2 Motorola people (direct side, not dealers) and they said this themselves.

MotoTRBO works much better than any analog radio system that I've seen anywhere, with excellent dependability. The radio equipment itself meets (or exceeds) the same mil-specs that other Motorola (and other brand) analog-only radios meet. A MotoTRBO radio is just as good for 'mission critical' applications as an HT1250, which has been used by many public safety agencies with excellent results. To say that MotoTRBO is 'bad' for public safety, because it doesn't do everything that P25 does, is like saying that all of the thousands of existing conventional analog equipment and systems, all over the world, are 'bad' for public safety - the same technology that has been sold for public safety and been used for public safety, for many years.

As to MotoTRBO and APCO 16, I haven't looked at the specific 'feature set' of APCO 16 to see if MotoTRBO meets those 'specs' or not. But, I don't think that the existing analog 'public safety' systems meet APCO 16 either and I don't see anyone 'badmouthing' analog because of this.

As to MotoTRBO systems being implemented for public safety - they already have been - numerous systems around the country. And so far, the feedback from users is that they work very well - 100% satisfaction from the ones that I've personally spoken with. On the other hand, I just recently spoke with a user (911 director) of a very large P25 system, and she told me that they're almost ready to go back to analog, because they're so unhappy with how the P25 system works (or more correctly, does not work).



John Rayfield, Jr. - CETma

And you are so wrong, APCO16 compliant CONVENTIONAL radio systems have been in operation for close to 20+ years. Agencies such as the NYPD use conventional analog voice with APCO16 compliant subscriber radios, you know, everything the Motorola Saber analog radios to their Vertex Standard VX520's that replace them. And the NYPD seems to be very happy with their analog radio system, 2 watt on hip portable coverage in 99 percent of the entire city? Yeah I see them going out to buy MotoTRBO tomorrow. If anything they are more concerned about narrowbanding as the cost of doing anything to a radio system that is in use 24/7/365 in a city the size of NYC is a major logistical hassle. In short, their system works, and works well, and they would like to keep it that way.

You are drinking too much MotoKOOLAID. Motorola is asking for trouble, MotoTRBO is a bad idea for public safety. Motorola needs to lower their price point on Astro 25 to remain competitive with other vendors, not offer up some half butt ESMR ala iDEN 2010 network as a solution when it doesn't even meet public safety industry standards and hasn't been tested or certified for such use. That is just plain STUPID on their part.

Conventional analog radio can perform quite well, again, ask anyone who uses the NYPD UHF conventional system and they will most likely concur. Any radio system can be horrible if it is not implemented correctly and isn't appropriate by design for the application it's being used in.

Case in point is MotoTRBO. Wanna see what happens when you use something like MotoTRBO? Can you say OpenSKY? Yeah, that's going real well for the state of NY and PA.

Not to mention, no Federal grants will pay for ESMR's, only Project 25. So what do you tell your customers when they find out they can't get any SAFECOM grants to help pay for their new MotoTOYZ?
 

MTS2000des

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And it cost a billion dollars and sounds like the tired old imbe that it is---crappy. ;)

YMMV. There are plenty of well maintained Astro 25 systems that sound quite good, the State of Michigan's statewide system is one. Any digital radio system will only perform well if current subscriber and infrastructure hardware and software are kept up to date. Inadequate radio coverage is also a factor, many systems just don't have enough transmit sites to cover their intended area.

the city of Atlanta's new Astro 25 system sounds pretty good, certainly miles above their scratchy, muddy Smartnet II system that went into failsoft every month for hours at a time. The new system has been online for over a year and only 20 minutes of downtime. Not bad. The users aren't complaining either.

Now if we could just get that ISSI roaming thing worked out around here...
 

1268

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When can all of ya'll get your information correct. I work for Jackson County and also the communications for Jackson County. How do you know whats going on in Jackson county when plans have not even been implemented. We are currently licensed in the UHF spectrum. If anyone is concerned about this system I would be glad to dicuss this system with you.

TK

Tommy does Steve know your posting on a public forum ? Since you asked please post the link to the public bid specs for the system since it exceeds the public bid threshold ?

If it's not Moto then what is it? Paper just reported about the 7 site trunking system and the acquisition of the Maysville site..do you deny that too ?

Folks this is the man holding the radio system together with bubble gum and he does a great job. However if you don't want rumor on a message board release the specs to the public. It's not the big seceret that you think it is Tommy but please post the full truth on the system since it doesn't show up in any BOC minutes?
I am sure Mike Buffington would love this story for the local paper.
 
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kc4wai

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It is no great mystery that government agencies (especially law enforcement) would like nothing more than to close the gap on the public's ability to intercept radio communications. For whatever the reasons may be I am sure this implication is debatable. But at least you don't have to call the Physicists at NASA-JPL to figure it out. You also don't need a sheep skin on the wall with the letters 'PhD' on it to be even a half way competent radio technician. In lay person's terms...'it ain't rocket science'.

What I am dubious of is 3 things. 1. Why these self-proclaimed "Stephen Hawkings of RF Engineering" feel the need to write 20 paragraph diatribes defending the wireless technology they work with (be it the implementation or the selling of).2. Why if they are such sought after experts in the field they have all this free time to post said diatribes on a message board. 3. Why the need to defend such a position to a bunch of radio hobbyists. These questions also apply to those posts on here claiming to work for the government agency in question.

Like the saying goes....'If you're right, no one can make you wrong'. Such verbal defensiveness is akin to an NFL coach explaining a bad play strategy to a room of drunken football fans.
 

ScanJackson

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Why don’t we all take a step back and look at the big picture. The system that we currently have needs to be updated. Like every other county is this nation money is tight so everyone is working hard to see that Jackson County gets the best radio system with the money that we do have. Public safety personnel will benefit greatly from this new system which means that the citizens of this county too will benefit.

Isn’t it this what really matters?

Stay Safe!!!

E. Gilbert
KJ4CZE
 
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