KDFtool/KFDshield timeout

[mtp850]

Let me know if there is interest in original KFDtool? If there is demand, i might launch production based on original project.

 

[W0VNE]

I never found the service manual for the SEM or it's successors but the EFJ SEM keyload cables all work based on RS-232 (from EFJ's KFD) to 3WI conversion. Looking at the pinouts I have for the standard head, they should match the Viking head for the relevant keyload pins.

The comm to the 5300 series mobile radios is RS-485 not RS-232. The handhelds do (I think) use RS232.
On the EFJ 53ES or EFJSL ES the pinout of the Mic Connector is *I'm Pretty sure now having ohmed out all the signals. I had to use a hypodermic syringe as a test lead to get onto the 20 pin ribbon connector which BTW is all Odd on one side all Even on the other side.

1-KEYFILL
2-RX-AUDIO
3-GROUND
4-MIC 4
5-KEYLOAD IND
6-MIC 6
7-RS-485 BUSY
8-SWITCHED +12VDC (On when the radio is on)
9-PTT
10-RS-485M
11-MIC AUDIO
12-HANGER
13-RS-485P

Using the pin out supplied here someplace I made a Cable from my 5300 Series Programmer to the Lightning head and it worked! Wow what a flashy looking display I can see why folks coveted this somewhat rare version of the 53SL ES. And yes btw as someone pointed out if you have a working lightning head front panel you can just replace it with the older front panel of the 53ES. There is some cutoff for Firmware that is not new enough for the lightning head but all of my stuff is the last known release 6.18.0 I used the last version of
PCConfig 2.18.16 I'm not sure if older versions support the Lightning head.

The Lightning head pin out to my 5300 Programmer is...

Lightning Head My 5300 Programmer
Pin 3 Pin 1 GND Black Wire
Pin 6 Pin 2 RS-485 BUSY White Wire
Pin 9 Pin 3 RS-485M Red Wire
Pin 12 Pin 5 RS-485P Green Wire
Pin 7 Pin 6 SWITCHED 12VDC Blue Wire

I hope this helps someone out.

 

[prcguy]

Let me know if there is interest in original KFDtool? If there is demand, i might launch production based on original project.

I thought the original was out of production due to some parts that are no longer available. The currently available micro or pico or shield version works the same and is much cheaper anyway.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

The comm to the 5300 series mobile radios is RS-485 not RS-232. The handhelds do (I think) use RS232.
On the EFJ 53ES or EFJSL ES the pinout of the Mic Connector is *I'm Pretty sure now having ohmed out all the signals. I had to use a hypodermic syringe as a test lead to get onto the 20 pin ribbon connector which BTW is all Odd on one side all Even on the other side.

1-KEYFILL
2-RX-AUDIO
3-GROUND
4-MIC 4
5-KEYLOAD IND
6-MIC 6
7-RS-485 BUSY
8-SWITCHED +12VDC (On when the radio is on)
9-PTT
10-RS-485M
11-MIC AUDIO
12-HANGER
13-RS-485P

Using the pin out supplied here someplace I made a Cable from my 5300 Series Programmer to the Lightning head and it worked! Wow what a flashy looking display I can see why folks coveted this somewhat rare version of the 53SL ES. And yes btw as someone pointed out if you have a working lightning head front panel you can just replace it with the older front panel of the 53ES. There is some cutoff for Firmware that is not new enough for the lightning head but all of my stuff is the last known release 6.18.0 I used the last version of
PCConfig 2.18.16 I'm not sure if older versions support the Lightning head.

The Lightning head pin out to my 5300 Programmer is...

Lightning Head My 5300 Programmer
Pin 3 Pin 1 GND Black Wire
Pin 6 Pin 2 RS-485 BUSY White Wire
Pin 9 Pin 3 RS-485M Red Wire
Pin 12 Pin 5 RS-485P Green Wire
Pin 7 Pin 6 SWITCHED 12VDC Blue Wire

I hope this helps someone out.

The programming cable is irrelevant in this case. Talking about the keyloading interface which uses 3WI (because it's a standard). I was referencing the protocol between the SEM and radio for keyloading. The SEM uses RS-232 (the current VK-5000 uses USB but has an RS-232 adapter option) and converts that to 3WI for the radios with the dongle built into the keyload cables.

 

[W0VNE]

Forgive me - I might be completely wrong on this and or not following you (I'm getting vegged out - ha) but for loading keys into the 51xx handhelds there is an RS-232 connection to program everything but loading crypto. On the Mic connector there is a pin you pull low to tell the radio to go into Keyloading mode by grounding it and a Keyloading data pin which is used for keyloading I/O that is not 3WI (Three Wire Interface but TWI(Two wire Interface). I've had an SEM in my hands but never did any study of it and only have operators manual so it may well be that the EFJ SEM uses RS-232 to talk to the "pod" as it appears to in some sales doc that uses the RS-232 Data to put it into a converter? (if so - who cares SEMs are rare as hens teeth) for the bidirectional Two Wire Interface "KVL" keyloading data format that the 51xx series radios worked with when I programmed keys using both an arduino KFD Hat and the not so popular KFDMini box. I say not popular because from a Youtube Video about them the author said he had gotten a large number of reports of these not working. And that maybe true. I bought one before seeing this and have had success with mine (And the Arduino KFD device) I think in both cases you must take care to use the driver for the proper device. If you mix up drivers for the device (Like loading the original KFD driver onto the Arduino? It just won't work.

Per the comment about producing more of the original KFD personally I suggest not doing this. There is the $100 odd dollar KFDMinis on Ebay and I've seen this even newer and lower priced option KFD Keyloading for $60 US.

Plus on the original unit I think one thing I dislike is the obsession with using the Motorola KVL's Hirose cables as the only way to connect a keyloader into a radio. Maybe (Again I could be missing something) better to just make up a cable from the jack coming out of the Mini or Arduino Hat or this new one from the W3AXL store to the mic cable and forget Hirose connectors and the added expense?

 

[Project25_MASTR]

The actual protocol is called 3WI even if only two wires are used because the data line is bi-directional. Most adapters don't use the sense line (which I believe is only actually used for KVL to KVL transfers at this point). But yes, the SEM outputs the data to RS-232 then uses a protocol level converter to convert to 3WI in the actual keyload cable.

The obsession with a Hirose adapter...funny because the 5300 standard control heads uses a Hirose connector for the microphone jack, the 5300ES wearing the Lightning heads uses a Hirose connector for the microphone (a different one) as do the Viking control heads (again, different) which you'll also find on first and second generation Viking mobiles. KNG mobiles also use a Hirose adapter for the microphone.

Anyway, I have nothing against using Hirose on the KFD side. I'm actually trying to modify a EFJ keyload cable to Hirose on the subscriber end to see if it will keyload Motorola subscribers right now because a VK-5000 is not only more attractive cost-wise than a KVL-5000 but also more available right now. That being said, here's my daily loadout for keyloading with a KVL-4000 at work:

• KVL to KVL cable (i.e. MX to MX) (~$82 from a online Motorola dealer)
• KVL to Hirose cable (~$286)
  • APX Portable Keyload adapter (~$61)
  • GCAI Keyload adapter (~$180)
  • W-series Keyload adapter (~$40 on the bay NOS)
  • XTS Keyload adapter (which has also been modified to keyload EFJ 5100's and VPx00's) (~$25 on the bay NOS)
• KVL to Kenwood Multipin (~$272)
• KVL to Kenwood 8P8C (~$252)
• KVL to Viking CH (~$275 is what I paid for it but I think the dealer let me have it close to cost)
• KVL to BKR (~$528)

Why'd I post that? Well...Hirose keyload adapters are significantly cheaper by at least $100 and they don't lock you into a specific vendor's KFD. One keyload cable to Hirose and I can keyload 7 different Motorola and EFJ series of radios that are still in use on my local system and two full generations of Motorola consoles. There is significant cost savings there. Unfortunately, the Hirose connector (which is $15 from Mouser) is honestly one of the cheapest and most versatile options.

 

[W0VNE]

The actual protocol is called 3WI even if only two wires are used because the data line is bi-directional. Most adapters don't use the sense line (which I believe is only actually used for KVL to KVL transfers at this point). But yes, the SEM outputs the data to RS-232 then uses a protocol level converter to convert to 3WI in the actual keyload cable.

The obsession with a Hirose adapter...funny because the 5300 standard control heads uses a Hirose connector for the microphone jack, the 5300ES wearing the Lightning heads uses a Hirose connector for the microphone (a different one) as do the Viking control heads (again, different) which you'll also find on first and second generation Viking mobiles. KNG mobiles also use a Hirose adapter for the microphone.

Anyway, I have nothing against using Hirose on the KFD side. I'm actually trying to modify a EFJ keyload cable to Hirose on the subscriber end to see if it will keyload Motorola subscribers right now because a VK-5000 is not only more attractive cost-wise than a KVL-5000 but also more available right now. That being said, here's my daily loadout for keyloading with a KVL-4000 at work:

• KVL to KVL cable (i.e. MX to MX) (~$82 from a online Motorola dealer)
• KVL to Hirose cable (~$286)
  • APX Portable Keyload adapter (~$61)
  • GCAI Keyload adapter (~$180)
  • W-series Keyload adapter (~$40 on the bay NOS)
  • XTS Keyload adapter (which has also been modified to keyload EFJ 5100's and VPx00's) (~$25 on the bay NOS)
• KVL to Kenwood Multipin (~$272)
• KVL to Kenwood 8P8C (~$252)
• KVL to Viking CH (~$275 is what I paid for it but I think the dealer let me have it close to cost)
• KVL to BKR (~$528)

Why'd I post that? Well...Hirose keyload adapters are significantly cheaper by at least $100 and they don't lock you into a specific vendor's KFD. One keyload cable to Hirose and I can keyload 7 different Motorola and EFJ series of radios that are still in use on my local system and two full generations of Motorola consoles. There is significant cost savings there. Unfortunately, the Hirose connector (which is $15 from Mouser) is honestly one of the cheapest and most versatile options.

Tone is hard to read in written messages but I think I'm annoying you in some way and if so? its not intentional. I say 1WI because this is a documented thing just as 3WI is or at least from what I've found. The signal that is not used as you mention I think is not even done anything with on the Arduino (At least as am active signal) and probably the Mini but I've not taken it apart to verify that. And as usual I might totally not be getting any of this "rite" Trust me no one was more surprised then me when all this keyloading jazz actually worked for me.

I understand your working in a shop and dealing with a variety of radio brands so the way your doing things makes some sense. Plus I think your using an actual Motorola KVL which considering what one costs I wouldn't probably be jimmying up cables to fiddle with something when there is a potential to fry it when a proven cable is available.

I've spent way too much of my time figuring out this junk which in my case is acceptable because I'm working for myself now. I'm pretty much locked into working on just old EFJ, Harris/MaCom gear so you clearly know the costs involved for supporting a wide variety of equipment and can total up time wasted x cost of ready to do then I do with my limited need.

You are totally right. The EFJ 5300 and the Lightning head do use mic connectors from Hirose but my point is simply that these aren't the ones that come out of the Motorola Keyloader. The Arduino KFD and the KFD Mini both use (not sure the correct name) but the 3 conductor mini "headphone jack" not the Hirose connector that comes out of the KVL or the original KFD project so having proper cables that work with either the KVL (Multi thousand dollars) or original KFD (No longer available) don't appeal to me. Versus the 2 (and maybe 3 KFD devices if I pick up one of the $60 units since the Arduino one and the original KFD seem to be unobtainium) Anyway since these all use these "hear-phone" connectors its not useful or makes sense to me to spend hundreds on official KVL Hirose cables. Truth be told with new Mouser or Digikey Hirose connectors for the Lightning Head or the 5300 series radios costing 5 or $6 bucks? Add in the cost of some wire? I can make a dozen cables for the cost of one official Motorola spec KVL cables. That said I do get why your not screwing around building cables.

And on a semi off topic comment I #$#%%#ing hate these Hirose Connectors that EFJ uses! Putting them together and getting the components of the connector in the right order SIGH and the pins to slip properly into the end? SIGH a pain in the arse but after doing the first 100 or so I'm getting better at it.

EFJ changing to a smaller Hirose mic connector for the Lightning head I think is proof that either they or God or both hate me. ha ha.

On the plus side I've collected a wife variety of microscope / googles / cheaters and have learned how well an old Diabetic Syringe works for a test probe when the parts on some of these radio PCBs I'm working on are inhalable!

Anyway before I forget I wanted to thank you for your help and apologize if I said anything to annoy you.

Best Regards - Jay

 

[Project25_MASTR]

I apologize for coming off annoyed. The two biggest things I'm really getting at, Hirose HR10 while a more expensive connector in the scheme of keyfill devices, is fairly low cost in comparison and with it being a commonly used interface on portable radios for survelence type audio accessories it's very common and while it's called Three Wire Interface, it more realistically is similar (if not the same as) a Dallas 1-Wire interface with an extra line for the not commonly used SENSE function.

 

[blakefreed]

I now have tested 11 surplus PRC-153s. 4 have the problem that I have been describing.
3 have the exact same 0104025J12 UCM that the working ones do. 1 has the 0104027J01, no idea where that came from.

It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the settings on the radio, or be affected by firmware/UCM updates or re-flashes.
I've tried housing and ribbon cable swaps as mentioned above too, no luck.

I don't know if it is something to do with the KFDshield. Two of the radios that are not keyloading now were previously keyloaded successfully with an original KFDTool and a KVL4000 respectively.
I am sending one back to see if it can be keyloaded by the KFDTool again.
Has anyone with both devices ran into being able to keyload on one and not the other?

I guess it could also be the connectors on the board itself. Has anyone else tested these with a multimeter before?

Meant to quote this. Did you ever figure out the problem?

 

[W0VNE]

I refurbish a fair number of EF Johnson 5100s ver 1,2,3, and 4 and the ver 6 (53ES) I picked up a KFD Mini from Ebay learning that the box is required to be set as the original KFD Tool not the KFD Shield (other) which includes the nicely priced W3AXL KFD board which is actually available KFD Keyloading unlike the Arduino Shield and original KFD Tool. I also have learned that unlike the W3AXL KFD the Chinese Mini from EBAY came preloaded with firmware so all I needed was the KFDToolGui program 1.8.7.0 which is linked from W3AXL to a github site GitHub - W3AXL/MicroKFD: Tiny KFDshield-based keyloading tool and seems to be vastly improved and updated and works with all three devices (as long as you set it right) The only issue is I never found an compiled version so did this myself using Visual Studio 2020 with the git and C++ extensions.

Some observations that may help someone else and a puzzling question. The EBAY Chinese Mini seems to use a non standard length TRSS jack that looks to be 17mm long not the 15mm normal length jack. *Note these are the common headphone 3.5mm Headphone jacks with an extra band. Not the "stereo" 3 band connector that is what I believe is correct for the W3AXL board. Anyway thanks to W3AXL for picking something standard! So from here and looking at the schematics for the 5100 and the 51ES the Mic/program connector is 13 pins on the original versions 1, 2, 3 and 4 and the 51ES has two additional pins (SIGH) Anyway quite a bit of madness as I was having a high time putting keys into the older version 5100s but got nothing but timeout errors with the 51ES and think there is something about the extra two pins that are causing me this grief. The homebrewed cable/connector I made to use the W3AXL KFD does put the 51ES into keyload mode but... Can't detect MR, write keys etc without timeout errors so somehow I'm guessing I've got data on a different pin on the 51ES then the early 5100s? Anyway for anyone whose having issues the one other thing I've learned is the W3AXL and the Arduino do NOT use the original firmware of the first KFD or this Chinese Ebay thing I bought.

I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out why the 51ES service manual shows a picture of the early version radios (2 pins less) side connector. If you want to keyload with the older 5100s I've learned that connecting pins 5, 6, 8, 9, 10,12 together to the ground pin of which ever KFD device and connecting the KFDs data pin to the EFJ pin 13 works. If I can stop banging my head against the desk I'm sure I'll find the ES is something I should have easily figured out. If anyone has had luck with the Ver 6 51ES and can ohm it out? Ha... Anyway some success and having fun.