LMRN General Discussion

[rneals]

There is no Minden site licensed on 150.100 in TAFL. However, there is a Minden radio site with a GMCB Microwave License.
I searched TAFL for all GMCB licenses, then searched within that for Minden - Only one radio license.

Minden - 11901 Highway 35

TX	6152.75000	Minden (11901 Ontario HighWay 35) ON	His Majesty The King in Right of The Province of Ontario (GMCB AFC Account)	0001870769
RX	6404.79000	Minden (11901 Ontario HighWay 35) ON	His Majesty The King in Right of The Province of Ontario (GMCB AFC Account)	0001870768

This TAFL query will give you dots on a map for all the GMCB microwave licenses in Central and Southwestern Ontario.

Mapped Results > Canadian Radio Spectrum Licence Search

And looking at these Microwave Licenses in detail, there is embedded intelligence in the "Licensee Station Reference" and "Reference Identifier" fields of the license.
For example, the Minden license above has a site identifier of "W0183" and a Reference Identifier of "P-2020147-W0183-W0363"

"W0183" is the Minden Site, and "W0363" is the other end of the Microwave Path.....
Query TAFL for W0363... And we get a listing of every microwave link that contains W0363 in either the Site Identifier or Reference Identifier fields.

Tx/Rx​	Frequency	Location	Licensee	Details
RX	6123.10000	Fenelon Falls (43 Potters Road) ON	His Majesty The King in Right of The Province of Ontario (GMCB AFC Account)	0001873266
TX	6123.10000	Washago (6311 HighWay 169) ON	His Majesty The King in Right of The Province of Ontario (GMCB AFC Account)	0001873265
RX	6152.75000	Fenelon Falls (43 Potters Road) ON	His Majesty The King in Right of The Province of Ontario (GMCB AFC Account)	0001870770
RX	6152.75000	Fenelon Falls (43 Potters Road) ON	His Majesty The King in Right of The Province of Ontario (GMCB AFC Account)	0001870784
TX	6152.75000	Sunderland (14200 Side Rd 18) ON	His Majesty The King in Right of The Province of Ontario (GMCB AFC Account)	0001870783
TX	6152.75000	Minden (11901 Ontario HighWay 35) ON	His Majesty The King in Right of The Province of Ontario (GMCB AFC Account)	0001870769
RX	6375.14000	Washago (6311 HighWay 169) ON	His Majesty The King in Right of The Province of Ontario (GMCB AFC Account)	0001873264
TX	6375.14000	Fenelon Falls (43 Potters Road) ON	His Majesty The King in Right of The Province of Ontario (GMCB AFC Account)	0001873263
RX	6404.79000	Minden (11901 Ontario HighWay 35) ON	His Majesty The King in Right of The Province of Ontario (GMCB AFC Account)	0001870768
TX	6404.79000	Fenelon Falls (43 Potters Road) ON	His Majesty The King in Right of The Province of Ontario (GMCB AFC Account)	0001870781
RX	6404.79000	Sunderland (14200 Side Rd 18) ON	His Majesty The King in Right of The Province of Ontario (GMCB AFC Account)	0001870782
TX	6404.79000	Fenelon Falls (43 Potters Road) ON	His Majesty The King in Right of The Province of Ontario (GMCB AFC Account)	0001870767
TX	6565.00000	Peterborough (1632 Chemong Road) ON	His Majesty The King in Right of The Province of Ontario (GMCB AFC Account)	0001870787
RX	6565.00000	Fenelon Falls (43 Potters Road) ON	His Majesty The King in Right of The Province of Ontario (GMCB AFC Account)	0001870788
TX	6905.00000	Fenelon Falls (43 Potters Road) ON	His Majesty The King in Right of The Province of Ontario (GMCB AFC Account)	0001870785
RX	6905.00000	Peterborough (1632 Chemong Road) ON	His Majesty The King in Right of The Province of Ontario (GMCB AFC Account)	0001870786
RX	10775.00000	Fenelon Falls (90 Industrial Park Dr) ON	Bell Mobility Inc.	0000109851
TX	10775.00000	Baddow (43 Potters Rd) ON	Bell Mobility Inc.	0000109850
TX	11265.00000	Fenelon Falls (90 Industrial Park Dr) ON	Bell Mobility Inc.	0000109848
RX	11265.00000	Baddow (43 Potters Rd) ON	Bell Mobility Inc.	0000109849

Piece a bunch of the TAFL data together, and you get a microwave backbone map. (partial) which reveals a few of the newer sites.
Like for example, the new Pontypool Micro Rd site is about 3 miles from the original OPP Pontypool site.

 

[gary123]

Maps are always a welcome addition. Nice work on the backbone. MTO may have a similar back
bone for the 143.805 frequency.

 

[rneals]

Maps are always a welcome addition. Nice work on the backbone. MTO may have a similar back
bone for the 143.805 frequency.

I recognize 143.805 as one of the ancient MTO analog frequencies. IIRC they used to have 7 repeater frequencies, and reused them but with different analog CTCSS tones in each district.

I did a little TAFL diving and when I look only for 143.805, I only find a few GMCB licenses, and it doesn't look like a pattern of sites that make a useful wide coverage network. So I expanded the search to any GMCB license between 143.000 and 143.999, and that gave me 7 licensed frequencies (Likely the old original MTO repeater channels).

And most of these overlap with the MOH 150.100 sites.

143.730
143.805
143.850
143.865
143.880
143.940
143.970

 

[mikewazowski]

143.8050MHz is a simplex channel used by the MTO for truck to truck operations.

The Commerce Park address in Barrie is Georgian CACC.

 

[rneals]

Maps are always a welcome addition. Nice work on the backbone. MTO may have a similar back
bone for the 143.805 frequency.

I suspect this 6 GHz microwave network is likely IP over MPLS over microwave, and probably has fiber circuits at various sites meshing it together for resiliency. The base stations would be tethered back to consoles over IP, and the microwave links would support multiple base station to console links.

 

[rneals]

143.8050MHz is a simplex channel used by the MTO for truck to truck operations.

The Commerce Park address in Barrie is Georgian CACC.

Potentially useful map of the CACCs, their geographic boundaries and call volumes.
This is from a slide deck about modernizing ambulance dispatch.

 

[Aviator747]

Wow, Nice forensics.

 

[rneals]

A new 100 foot communications tower has sprouted outside the Lindsay CACC (Ambulance Dispatch 440 Kent St, Lindsay)
Lindsay CACC dispatches ambulances for Northumberland, Haliburton, Kawartha Lakes and Peterborough City and County.
Nothing active on the tower yet, its next to the Generator building. Construction fence around the base.

There is one heavier constructed side mount bracket which is on the leg of the tower facing southwest in the direction of Sunderland OPP Tower. There are two lighter duty side mount brackets on the north leg, probably for VHF antennas north to Fenelon.
I would expect a 6GHz microwave link to be installed to connect Lindsay CACC to the Sunderland Fleetnet/PSRN Tower, although none in TAFL at the moment.

If anyone is around Barrie, take a look at 102 Commerce Park Dr Unit 4 which is the Georgian CACC.
There may be one of these 100 ft towers appear at Georgian CACC. There is a 6GHz microwave link in TAFL connecting Georgian to the Sunderland OPP Tower also.

 

[thecanadiangod]

From a LMRN document that was given out to Peel regional EMS, they should start using it for day to day calls in July of this year.

 

[exkalibur]

From a LMRN document that was given out to Peel regional EMS, they should start using it for day to day calls in July of this year.

I think that might be a bit optimistic. The system no doubt had a lot of setbacks with the pandemic. Originally the system was meant to be online by the end of last year.

 

[VA3ADP]

I think that might be a bit optimistic. The system no doubt had a lot of setbacks with the pandemic. Originally the system was meant to be online by the end of last year.

Good Point, We are almost at the 5-year mark from when the system was announced. At the rate the government is working (we all know government's work very slowly when it comes to huge projects). My guess would be we don't see a transition happening until next year or 2026.

 

[gpsdepot]

Article on Barrie Today Website about the changes.

Over and out: Radio silence falling over region's police chatter

As OPP moves to fully encrypted radio system across Ontario, emergency services cite privacy and responder safety as primary concerns for going silent

www.barrietoday.com

 

[rneals]

Article on Barrie Today Website about the changes.

Over and out: Radio silence falling over region's police chatter

As OPP moves to fully encrypted radio system across Ontario, emergency services cite privacy and responder safety as primary concerns for going silent

www.barrietoday.com

You would think that a Deputy Chief of the Fire Department might actually be factual when interviewed by the media. He clearly knows nothing about the Radio Communications Act, and/or is simply exhibiting a bias toward secrecy of fire department radio comms.

 

[gary123]

It is always about officer safety. That is the go to justification. All these agencies complain behind closed doors that all of a sudden public assistance on tips lines and even during direct officer to citizen interactions drops through the floor. Hmm could the two be related??? It seems to happen across the board with every department that goes that route. Either way its going to happen the public has no control over it.

To stir the pot further. LE likes the "officer safety" argument. EMS and Fire like the "There is private information about the patient or location that is put over the air" argument.

As we all know many services and systems are not 100% encrypted. The best we can do is log TGs and the date they were last heard active. this beats having full and active systems with no TG listed. On multiple site systems perhaps logging the site as well would be of use sometime down the road.

EG

TG Mode Alpha Tag Description
1A2 TE ------- Encrypted TG 1A2 - site 99 - 240101 - 24-0130 <---- talkgroup - site heard on - first heard on - *last heard on

This type of entry will not affect the data base in any way. And for those concerned about the dates. *The last heard on date can be updated every month or so rather than daily. We do not want to kill the data base moderators. They already have their hands (fingers LOL) full doing the excellent and thankless job they are already doing.

My thought too is that this type of entry will help narrow down some TG usage. if the Tg is primarily on one tower or a couple of towers then it would indicate a local use TG. If its all over the network then its a system wide or zone TG. With LMRN on the horizon this type of entry will help create a usable data base of activity even with encrypted comm's.

 

[Forts]

It is always about officer safety. That is the go to justification. All these agencies complain behind closed doors that all of a sudden public assistance on tips lines and even during direct officer to citizen interactions drops through the floor. Hmm could the two be related??? It seems to happen across the board with every department that goes that route. Either way its going to happen the public has no control over it.

To stir the pot further. LE likes the "officer safety" argument. EMS and Fire like the "There is private information about the patient or location that is put over the air" argument.

We did some training with EMS this week and they specifically asked us to watch what we say on the air due to people listening in. From our end (fire) they just asked that we benchmark EMS on scene, at patient, and patient being transported. That's about it. Don't mention the rig # or what hospital they are going to.

We were told they've had too many instances of people hearing things and coming to check out the scene, or following ambulances to hospitals. Needless to say, the medics that understand the new radio system are quite excited for it to go live.

 

[gary123]

Forts, I agree. That is one of the legit reasons for going encrypted. There are two sides to every coin. I try to see both sides.

My biggest argument is encryption for encryptions sake. However, as in everything there are those whose actions reflect poorly on the hobby and in effect wreck it for us all. I am ready for LMRN and OPP/EMS going dark. This is just another aspect to the hobby.

 

[Enjoi19]

Wondering if anyone might have any insight as to why there are some radios that seem to just endlessly affiliate on and off. Same 3-4, and seemingly at an increasing rate the past few days. What radios could these be that would be cycling like this 24 hours a day?

 

[mikewazowski]

I see those too off of Edgar. Really fills the screen up fast.

I'm wondering if they've been added to the database but have not yet been installed yet and the system is trying to find them?

 

[Muxlow]

I see a couple same radios getting the affiliation request then the acknowledgement off the Sarnia tower
Radio 753780

Also saw radio 701476 flipping through groups 19210,, 19031 19032 this afternoon.

 

[gary123]

Perhaps some automated test units or a console set to check system status.