New Radios being used by NYPD

[radioman2001]

Don't know if the Vertex have OTAR capability, otherwise it's going to be one big snafu.

 

[coolrich55]

As of around 3am Manhattan dispatchers were making announcements that certain zones were being combined. So the same dispacher is handling 1 5 7 6 9. And the midtown N S 17 10 13 have the same dispatcher. Is this normal for early morning or is something else going on?

 

[coolrich55]

Also the 19 23 dispatcher only is coming over the WTC zone. She kept mentioning said zone.

 

[ff026]

It happens from time to time on the 1st platoon if there is a shortage of PCT’s (dispatchers). It was probably happening in other boro’s as well. They multi select multiple zones on the consoles. So when the PCT presses the PTT they come up on more than 1 division at a time but the different divisions can’t hear each other.

They used to have 1 zone switch to another One so you would have 4 or 5 precincts on 1 zone. That stopped because not everyone would get the word to switch and there was a foot chase 1 night in the Bronx and there was a delay in figuring out what was going on because the dispatcher was not monitoring the other zone that everyone switched off of. Now they just multi select 2 zones and run it that way.

 

[Priority-One]

I heard the 3am announcement on the 1/5/7. Central gave zone announcements


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[coolrich55]

Ok cool. Good info. I almost thought it had something to do with the new system testing or whatnot. But I figured if that was the case then the communications division channel would be busy.

 

[12dbsinad]

I have this argument a couple of times a month. I don't understand why people would rather hear analog that they can't make anything out with rather than crystal clear digital with the occasional squawk on the fringes of coverage.

What people don't like is the lack of fidelity. It's very clear but sounds very monotone which can make it very difficult to understand. Try using digital in a burning building with an air pack on and full gear, with all kinds of background noise, it isn't easy sometimes and a lot of it has to do with the voice characteristics of the person speaking.

Correct. And the analog quality where digital decided to drop off the edge would be useless. -124dB digital sounds much better than -124dB analog

If you find yourself in a -124db area more times than none you need a better radio system or improvements. all you need to do is move your portable radio an inch and it's gone, digital or not.

 

[902]

What people don't like is the lack of fidelity. It's very clear but sounds very monotone which can make it very difficult to understand. Try using digital in a burning building with an air pack on and full gear, with all kinds of background noise, it isn't easy sometimes and a lot of it has to do with the voice characteristics of the person speaking.

If you find yourself in a -124db area more times than none you need a better radio system or improvements. all you need to do is move your portable radio an inch and it's gone, digital or not.

Well... I'd like to suggest you look at the draft of NFPA 1802, which can be viewed on their website for free (after registering without committing to anything). Much of the problem is that previous testing methods lacked specificity. The test being recommended for transceivers entering a hazard zone (like an IDLH environment) is the ITU-T recommendation P.862 Perceptual Evaluation of Speech Quality (PESQ) using anatomical models, and, when it's used as a system with PPE, the entire PPE, itself. There's been a lot of work on that. Likewise, the vocoder was changed from a IMBE to AMBE+2 and a lot of transceivers have developed additional noise cancellation features. One thing the PESQ test seeks to do is to pull that human factor out of it, and give it quantifiable machine-readable values that provide a stable platform of comparison. Why? After 40 years of doing public safety and land mobile radio (siren speakers and air horns on the roof, tones, listening to noise, etc.) and blasting my music, my hearing is shot. Tinnitus. I'm going to score something differently on the Likert scale than an 18 year-old firefighter. That's what the original IMBE selection was, a panel of people listening and saying, "I like this one."

Hopefully the new generation will have better speech intelligibility and a safer environment as we move forward.

Agreed on the signal strength, but the new paradigm is shifting away from land mobile radio entirely. Buildings will be saturated with coverage through either BDA/DAS systems, or very possibly gNB pucks zoned for 5G coverage, and when you're zero bars and the unit can't form a self-organized network with another subscriber who's in range, well... you're finished. Note that I am not a fan of this, but there's tons of capital and momentum behind it and we're all riding the train.

 

[N2YQT]

What people don't like is the lack of fidelity. It's very clear but sounds very monotone which can make it very difficult to understand. Try using digital in a burning building with an air pack on and full gear, with all kinds of background noise, it isn't easy sometimes and a lot of it has to do with the voice characteristics of the person speaking.

If you find yourself in a -124db area more times than none you need a better radio system or improvements. all you need to do is move your portable radio an inch and it's gone, digital or not.

I agree and I think someone else mentioned already it. Maybe in another thread. Analog is king on the fireground. The reference to signal strength was to show how one would work and one wouldn't in that given situation. Anyone using a portable in a fringe area is asking for trouble anyway.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Well... I'd like to suggest you look at the draft of NFPA 1802, which can be viewed on their website for free (after registering without committing to anything). Much of the problem is that previous testing methods lacked specificity. The test being recommended for transceivers entering a hazard zone (like an IDLH environment) is the ITU-T recommendation P.862 Perceptual Evaluation of Speech Quality (PESQ) using anatomical models, and, when it's used as a system with PPE, the entire PPE, itself. There's been a lot of work on that. Likewise, the vocoder was changed from a IMBE to AMBE+2 and a lot of transceivers have developed additional noise cancellation features. One thing the PESQ test seeks to do is to pull that human factor out of it, and give it quantifiable machine-readable values that provide a stable platform of comparison. Why? After 40 years of doing public safety and land mobile radio (siren speakers and air horns on the roof, tones, listening to noise, etc.) and blasting my music, my hearing is shot. Tinnitus. I'm going to score something differently on the Likert scale than an 18 year-old firefighter. That's what the original IMBE selection was, a panel of people listening and saying, "I like this one."

Hopefully the new generation will have better speech intelligibility and a safer environment as we move forward.

Agreed on the signal strength, but the new paradigm is shifting away from land mobile radio entirely. Buildings will be saturated with coverage through either BDA/DAS systems, or very possibly gNB pucks zoned for 5G coverage, and when you're zero bars and the unit can't form a self-organized network with another subscriber who's in range, well... you're finished. Note that I am not a fan of this, but there's tons of capital and momentum behind it and we're all riding the train.

I would like to think the new generation had any inkling about what "better speech intelligibility" is all about. I see a shift toward texting everything and an acceptance that phone circuits with 1/2 second latency and monotone audio are the norm. My sister has an iPhone and I cannot understand 50% of what she says. Part of it is bad vocoder, the other is ear-mouth ergonomics of a glass slab. I have my old Razr V3M because it sounds great. People hear me, I hear them.

I will confess to having tinnitus and same abuse of my hearing (a lot of twin turboprop flights) but P25 is awful. So much variability from speaker to speaker to device to device. Sometimes perfect, but usually mediocre, especially the monotone response. I think hearing disability is norm for middle age people especially those working in public safety environment. Librarians not so bad.

 

[Priority-One]

I know this is a bit off topic but my girl works as an executive assistant at 30 rock to the head of security and maintenance services and she said they discussed encryption at a meeting on their DMR system for the plaza to align with NYPD. They are attempting to tie into a shared NYPD channel in 2020. She said they sat with a /\/\ vendor and discussed the opportunity to provide encryption and 5G service in the plaza. I am not sure how accurate or prevalent this is to the NYPD issue seeing that Rock center is DMR?


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[902]

I would like to think the new generation had any inkling about what "better speech intelligibility" is all about. I see a shift toward texting everything and an acceptance that phone circuits with 1/2 second latency and monotone audio are the norm. My sister has an iPhone and I cannot understand 50% of what she says. Part of it is bad vocoder, the other is ear-mouth ergonomics of a glass slab. I have my old Razr V3M because it sounds great. People hear me, I hear them.

I will confess to having tinnitus and same abuse of my hearing (a lot of twin turboprop flights) but P25 is awful. So much variability from speaker to speaker to device to device. Sometimes perfect, but usually mediocre, especially the monotone response. I think hearing disability is norm for middle age people especially those working in public safety environment. Librarians not so bad.

I don't necessarily hate P25 audio (although I don't have to listen to it at home like you may where you're at... yet). I used to reduce the bass and increase the treble in subscriber units and I was kind of happy with that. And, it's STILL better than iDEN and OpenSky (which I thought was so compressed-up that it sounded just like iDEN direct connect). Those sounded like talking through a comb with wax paper folded over it.

I'm with you on cellular. I have a cellphone and I HATE to receive any voice calls on it. I turn my ringer off. It's so heavily compressed and with my degree of hearing impairment, I have to strain to make out what people are saying. The latency also screws me up because I tend to speak with people who are motor-mouths and like to hear themselves talk. I can't effectively break in without having natural pauses, and by the time I'm done with a cellular call, I just want to scream (and sometimes I do).

On the bright side (I have to consider that, otherwise everything is hopeless), if one of the motor-mouths who has called me drones on too long, I've developed a really, really good pixellated audio voice and it usually gets them to hang up.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

(snip)

On the bright side (I have to consider that, otherwise everything is hopeless), if one of the motor-mouths who has called me drones on too long, I've developed a really, really good pixellated audio voice and it usually gets them to hang up.

I like your style! Yeah I have someone that calls and often I cannot understand him and he talks in cryptic terms . I think I will just start telling him to call me on a landline, if that is even an option any longer.

 

[Danny37]

It happens from time to time on the 1st platoon if there is a shortage of PCT’s (dispatchers). It was probably happening in other boro’s as well. They multi select multiple zones on the consoles. So when the PCT presses the PTT they come up on more than 1 division at a time but the different divisions can’t hear each other.

They used to have 1 zone switch to another One so you would have 4 or 5 precincts on 1 zone. That stopped because not everyone would get the word to switch and there was a foot chase 1 night in the Bronx and there was a delay in figuring out what was going on because the dispatcher was not monitoring the other zone that everyone switched off of. Now they just multi select 2 zones and run it that way.

Heard it tonight too in queens. The 104/112 dispatcher was also dispatching 100/101. Sometimes the zones bleed into each other when dispatching. With that being said, the civil service exam for PCT is open. Lots of a turn-over rates for this job, it ain't easy whatsoever.

 

[ten13]

What is the residency requirement for the PCT test?: NYC only or, like the FD's dispatchers, the city and the surrounding counties?

 

[Danny37]

What is the residency requirement for the PCT test?: NYC only or, like the FD's dispatchers, the city and the surrounding counties?

I think it's NYC residency for the probationary period (1 year?) and then the surrounding counties after that threshold. if you're already a city employee, I think you can be exempt.

The filing period end this Tuesday (March 26) btw

 

[ten13]

That PCT's job could be an interesting job. However, the general "environment" of the operation may tend to be, well, not to everyone's liking.

I worked there years ago (when the NYPD was still on VHF, and there were still a few cops and cop bosses working there). I worked the Bronx radio and got involved in several criminal investigations with detectives and which made the news. There were a few "like minded" people working there then, but probably none today, which would put a "buff" in a "minority" now, and probably make life difficult.

With that said, I seldom listen to the Division (precinct) radios anymore, since I pick up on things that SHOULD be done, and things that SHOULDN'T be done, not only by the dispatchers, but by the cops, too, and I get tired of talking to myself, yelling at the radio.

But, if you're young and looking for job, and have an interest in it all, it would be a good job to take...for awhile...until something better comes along.

 

[Danny37]

If you can handle a toxic environment, working 16 hour back to back mandatory overtime shifts and be harassed on your RDO's to come in for work. oh yea and the pay-scale is a joke. Not to mention your lunch breaks being cancelled if they're in backlog or holding calls.

It's definitely not for the faint of heart, every class about half of the people who get hired leave in about 6-8 months. The rest leave in the next year or so, once they find another job.

 

[ten13]

It's definitely not for the faint of heart, every class about half of the people who get hired leave in about 6-8 months.

I'll do you one better: the first day of the class when I was there, the instructor (a cop) happened to mention, off-handedly, about working nights and midnights. One woman raised her hand and asked if they would have to work nights. The cop said, yeah, who do you think answers 911 at 3am?

With that four women got up and walked out.

 

[Danny37]

I'll do you one better: the first day of the class when I was there, the instructor (a cop) happened to mention, off-handedly, about working nights and midnights. One woman raised her hand and asked if they would have to work nights. The cop said, yeah, who do you think answers 911 at 3am?

With that four women got up and walked out.

My cousin worked as a PCT in the 2013-2014 time frame. She lasted about a year but it was hell in her words. She had gained about 25lb from stress-eating and working 16 hours back to back for 5 days and even 6. Her supervisors treated her and well everyone like crap. Her lunch breaks were cancelled and would get hit a mandatory overtime like 5 minutes before her shifts ends. They would never let her swap shifts with co-workers if she ever had plans. They constantly called her on her days off to come in when she trying to catch up on sleep she had missed all week. Breaks being canceled was common and favoritism was common. CD's were written like parking tickets. They micro-managed everything making it so hostile.

This was a girl fresh out of college who wanted to be a cop and after that stint she became an entirely different person. She was such a positive person and then she became so miserable and cynical. One of my friends is a supervisor there and I asked him to look out for her, he did but when he saw what it was doing to her. He advised her it was time to call it quits, which I'm glad he did.

It's one thing to work a stressful job but adding on unnecessary toxicity and hostilely is unnecessary. When she left out of the 24 who went on to graduate with her, only 4 remained when she put in her papers.