OC Fire and OC Sheriff squabble over Laguna Beach rescue - Raw Audio
- Thread starter MtnBiker2005
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krazybob
Member
Really? What state law would that be? I've been a member of the SAR team for the sheriff as well as a PCF with with the County Fire Department.
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krazybob
Member
I think you're misinformed. For whatever it's worth and I'm sure to some people here it's worth nothing I'm certified ICS 400 and it only goes to 500. I have enough certificates to wallpaper my office. There was a complete breakdown of ICS but that doesn't mean it was caused by the sheriff. The sheriff was in the air first and on scene first. They had received the call of an intoxicated individual trapped in a water cave. They have a dive team if it was necessary. The fire department rolled in and decided it was their incident to deal with. OCSD had only recently acquired a rather expensive helicopter rescue equipped with certified paramedics on board. OCFA toes got stepped on.
You can have a BC demanding that the sheriff's helicopter already affecting a rescue depart the area but that doesn't mean he was right anymore than it means that the pilot of the sheriff airship was wrong. Delay of patient care should have been the primary concern and that's what the sheriff's pilot kept telling the butthurt BC. We need to look at the big picture here.
There was a total breakdown of ICS. We deal with this all the time here in San Bernardino County. If SO is first on scene and qualified for the rescue, which they are, they will handle the air rescue. Fire personnel are usually the first in on the ground. They coordinate through Comm Center when they request an airship. The Airship may be Sheriff, Fire or Mercy who is not rescue qualified. There's no law that says rescues are the responsibility of the either department. Try telling that to LA County SO and Sheriff Air 5. or Firev6 or 7. I've spent more time with that airship then you can imagine. Not as a crew member. There's a time I knew the crews. All very well qualified in rescue. Going into a burning building may be the "job" of a firefighter but police officers go into burning buildings all the time. Firefighters fight with aggressive patients just as often.
I've sat in more ICS training classes and sessions to be able to analyze in part what went on here. The politics are above my pay grade. I'm not with either agency now. Permanent disability. But my brain still works. It's one thing to listen to a scanner and appreciate a particular engine company and another to actually have the training to reach such a conclusion. I've worked in in both fields. Neither one is better than the other. With all the yelling that the BC doing who instead was telling the pilot the things he didn't know the sheriff's department was calmly and professionally affecting a rescue. It was the butt hurt BC that didn't follow ICS. Had he done so he would have properly asked for a patient assessment. He would have asked how his personnel could be of assistance to the incident. He would have asked if they were going to transport to the hospital by air or if a ground ambulance was needed and an LZ set up. They would have worked together as a cohesive team regardless of what shoulder patch they had on. Instead it sounds like now OCFA has competition on who does rescues. I have no bone to pick with either one of them. I'm just telling you how I see it. Unbiased.
You can have a BC demanding that the sheriff's helicopter already affecting a rescue depart the area but that doesn't mean he was right anymore than it means that the pilot of the sheriff airship was wrong. Delay of patient care should have been the primary concern and that's what the sheriff's pilot kept telling the butthurt BC. We need to look at the big picture here.
There was a total breakdown of ICS. We deal with this all the time here in San Bernardino County. If SO is first on scene and qualified for the rescue, which they are, they will handle the air rescue. Fire personnel are usually the first in on the ground. They coordinate through Comm Center when they request an airship. The Airship may be Sheriff, Fire or Mercy who is not rescue qualified. There's no law that says rescues are the responsibility of the either department. Try telling that to LA County SO and Sheriff Air 5. or Firev6 or 7. I've spent more time with that airship then you can imagine. Not as a crew member. There's a time I knew the crews. All very well qualified in rescue. Going into a burning building may be the "job" of a firefighter but police officers go into burning buildings all the time. Firefighters fight with aggressive patients just as often.
I've sat in more ICS training classes and sessions to be able to analyze in part what went on here. The politics are above my pay grade. I'm not with either agency now. Permanent disability. But my brain still works. It's one thing to listen to a scanner and appreciate a particular engine company and another to actually have the training to reach such a conclusion. I've worked in in both fields. Neither one is better than the other. With all the yelling that the BC doing who instead was telling the pilot the things he didn't know the sheriff's department was calmly and professionally affecting a rescue. It was the butt hurt BC that didn't follow ICS. Had he done so he would have properly asked for a patient assessment. He would have asked how his personnel could be of assistance to the incident. He would have asked if they were going to transport to the hospital by air or if a ground ambulance was needed and an LZ set up. They would have worked together as a cohesive team regardless of what shoulder patch they had on. Instead it sounds like now OCFA has competition on who does rescues. I have no bone to pick with either one of them. I'm just telling you how I see it. Unbiased.
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GOV § 26614
Check out the OC Grand Jury's report about the lack of SAR-capable helicopters, and delegation of hoist rescues to County fire starting on page 10. Note that the report came out prior to OCSD having the equipment, and trained medical staff to do the work.
http://www.ocgrandjury.org/pdfs/she.../Review-of-Sheriffs-Aviation-Support-Unit.pdf
krazybob
Member
That's way too much. And I'm not going to take the time. Government code section 26614 does not state that the sheriff's department is legally responsible for rescues. The section you site states that any party rescued by the sheriff is responsible for financial restitution.
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Then you probably won't want to read a document governing the aviation services between the OCFA and OCSD that's here:
There's no date, but the names on the signature lines make this a fairly recent document (2010-ish)
It says, in part: "OCSD has statutory authority pursuant to the California Government Code, Section 26614 for Search and Rescue services within the County of Orange.
OCFA has statutory authority pursuant to the California Health and Safety Code, Section 13862 for immediate response within the County of Orange to protect life and property."
Now - back to the topic...
Thanks for posting that PDF link. The date in the URL is 3-15-2016.
______________________________
Request for services will follow the guidelines noted below:
1. Contact shall be made to the dispatch center having operational control and acting as the central ordering point, through pre-established communication links requesting a resource identified in this agreement.
2. Whenever possible, the OCSD and OCFA will provide resource exception reporting when a helicopter is not available to the dispatch centers.
3. All necessary information including location, type of incident, assigned radio frequencies and related information that is available shall be relayed to responding aircraft and updated as appropriate.
4. If OCFA Dispatch receives a call for service involving an uninjured person in any of the mountainous areas or hiking trails in Orange County, the call will be transferred to OCSD Dispatch in order to dispatch the OCSD helicopter for the search and rescue portion of the mission. The OCFA helicopter will be launched based on incident needs to support the rescue portion of the mission.
5. If OCSD Dispatch receives a call for service involving an uninjured person in any of the mountainous areas or hiking trails in Orange County, they will dispatch the OCSD helicopter for the search and rescue portion of the mission. The OCFA helicopter will be launched based on incident needs to support the rescue portion of the mission.
6. If OCFA Dispatch receives a call for service involving an injured person in any of the mountainous areas or hiking trails in Orange County, the call will be transferred to OCSD Dispatch in order to dispatch the OCSD helicopter for the search portion of the mission. The OCFA helicopter will be launched for the rescue portion of the mission. The OCSD helicopter will remain on station to direct the OCFA helicopter to the location of the injured person.
___________________________________________________________
TRAINING:
Periodic interagency training shall be conducted for the purpose of improving working relationships and operational coordination between OCSD and OCFA aircraft. This training shall be coordinated through the OCFA Fire Chief’s designee and the Orange County Sheriff’s designee.
___________________________________________________________
^^ looks like those OCFA Fire Chief's should attend more of those training classes!
______________________________
Request for services will follow the guidelines noted below:
1. Contact shall be made to the dispatch center having operational control and acting as the central ordering point, through pre-established communication links requesting a resource identified in this agreement.
2. Whenever possible, the OCSD and OCFA will provide resource exception reporting when a helicopter is not available to the dispatch centers.
3. All necessary information including location, type of incident, assigned radio frequencies and related information that is available shall be relayed to responding aircraft and updated as appropriate.
4. If OCFA Dispatch receives a call for service involving an uninjured person in any of the mountainous areas or hiking trails in Orange County, the call will be transferred to OCSD Dispatch in order to dispatch the OCSD helicopter for the search and rescue portion of the mission. The OCFA helicopter will be launched based on incident needs to support the rescue portion of the mission.
5. If OCSD Dispatch receives a call for service involving an uninjured person in any of the mountainous areas or hiking trails in Orange County, they will dispatch the OCSD helicopter for the search and rescue portion of the mission. The OCFA helicopter will be launched based on incident needs to support the rescue portion of the mission.
6. If OCFA Dispatch receives a call for service involving an injured person in any of the mountainous areas or hiking trails in Orange County, the call will be transferred to OCSD Dispatch in order to dispatch the OCSD helicopter for the search portion of the mission. The OCFA helicopter will be launched for the rescue portion of the mission. The OCSD helicopter will remain on station to direct the OCFA helicopter to the location of the injured person.
___________________________________________________________
TRAINING:
Periodic interagency training shall be conducted for the purpose of improving working relationships and operational coordination between OCSD and OCFA aircraft. This training shall be coordinated through the OCFA Fire Chief’s designee and the Orange County Sheriff’s designee.
___________________________________________________________
^^ looks like those OCFA Fire Chief's should attend more of those training classes!
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krazybob
Member
I don't mind reading relevant documentation but that was way too long to try to read on a cell phone.Then you probably won't want to read a document governing the aviation services between the OCFA and OCSD that's here:
There's no date, but the names on the signature lines make this a fairly recent document (2010-ish)
It says, in part: "OCSD has statutory authority pursuant to the California Government Code, Section 26614 for Search and Rescue services within the County of Orange.
OCFA has statutory authority pursuant to the California Health and Safety Code, Section 13862 for immediate response within the County of Orange to protect life and property."
Now - back to the topic...
What I see you doing though is cherry picking sections of code that do not have the preceding definitions and declarations. H&S 13862 states that a district shall have the authority... but it does not state that they have the exclusive authority. There's no state law that I am aware of that states that aerial rescues are exclusively the responsibility of a sheriff's department and ground rescues are the exclusive responsibilities of fire department resources.
I think you are missing the purpose of ICS. Since I don't know you and your level of experience may I ask if you know what I see as is and how it works?
The incident command system was developed by FEMA to better and able various agencies involved with disaster and rescues to work cohesively with one another. It was expanded significantly after Hurricane Katrina. In a command post there are elements from multiple groups. Our Command Center has a fire department rep, a sheriff's department rep, a water department rep, and amateur radio rep, etc.
As I previously said I'm sure nobody gives a damn one way or another but I am certified ICS 400. The final course is 500 and I just haven't taken it yet. However, ICS 400 is an advanced course that I have successfully completed. Having done so I can unequivocally state that both the sheriff's department and the fire department failed using the ICS for the purpose it was intended. What you had was a pissing match. What you had was a fire department Battalion Commander who's used to calling the shots on rescues suddenly encountering a sheriff's helicopter that was well equipped including paramedics affecting a rescue before he even got there. Delay of patient care should have been the number one concern of the Battalion Commander. All he did was yell at the sheriff's department pilot about information he did not have but he did not ask for the actual information! He was pissing up a rope!
How different do you think this would have gone if the BC had simply said to the airship, "We have helicopter so-and-so inbound but are you over the incident and currently in contact with the patient? Okay. We will have our helicopter orbit out of your area. How can we assist you with patient? Will you be transporting by air or by ground and will you needed a LZ setup? I understand that you have paramedics on board and are ALS qualified. How can we assist you? Okay. We will stand by."
THIS is how ICS and unified command are supposed to work.
In February I was part of a rescue operation that lasted 13 hours involving the imminent demise of three people in a 4x4 stuck deep down in Crab Flats during a blizzard. I was in contact by CB radio with the victims while at the same time in cell phone contact with the sheriff Sergeant while at the same time in direct contact with the BC via radio. Dispatch contacted me after receiving a citizen's report of someone on the radio calling for help.
Having worked in law enforcement and later in fire service I was in a unique position as a disabled person now that is an extra class amateur radio operator and able to assist. With an official fire service radio identifier I was able to talk directly via radio to necessary personnel. It wasn't relevant that I was now disabled living on a Mountaintop. What was relevant was that I was in direct contact with the victim's and the rescue personnel. Are you kind of seeing my point here? I'm not trying to be adversarial at all. Unfortunately we cannot see context many times by text message and I'm sure this is getting long because I'm using speech to text.
It took three snow cats, a bulldozer, a full search and rescue team, and approximately 20 personnel to rescue three people. It was a mixture of the sheriff's department and the fire department - and a retired public servant. We worked cooperatively together for the benefit of patient care. There was no BS about who was in charge of what.
The time to argue about who's authority or elements or job description a rescue should fall into is after the fact or before this act. More than likely and as is currently the case in San Bernardino County and Los Angeles County and Kern County, each of which I have worked directly with, it may be a sheriff's helicopter over hang glider down with fire personnel on the ground. I I worked that one just last weekend. It just happens that the hang gliders like to use my ham radio repeater up here in the San Bernardino Mountains.
Teamwork!
My apologies for being so long-winded.
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Looks like 26614 Govt Code has been ammended as of 2013, to may from shall. so my bad. But until then rescue work was the command of the Sheriff. Although other provisions still provide for cost recovery as well as ambulance service by the Sheriff and the Sheriff remains ex oficio director of emergency services
krazybob
Member
We're all good. This is a conversation and not an argument. Each of us comes from a different place in life. Some of us have experience in the actual service, some of us don't. At the end of the day hopefully common sense applies and we can look for things that we agree on rather than spending unnecessary time on the things we disagree on. I think we can all agree these guys acted like real ****t heads.
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Thanks for pointing this out. I was not aware of the changes to search and rescue responsibility in the state.
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krazybob
Member
Good stuff! It is what we call sop - standard operating procedure. It couldn't be clearer. Depending on who gets the call they hold it or they transfer it based on this medical needs. As a general statement it creates cooperation between the agencies. This is the heart of what ICS - incident command system - is all about. Thank you for posting this recap. I appreciate it.Thanks for posting that PDF link. The date in the URL is 3-15-2016.
______________________________
Request for services will follow the guidelines noted below:
1. Contact shall be made to the dispatch center having operational control and acting as the central ordering point, through pre-established communication links requesting a resource identified in this agreement.
2. Whenever possible, the OCSD and OCFA will provide resource exception reporting when a helicopter is not available to the dispatch centers.
3. All necessary information including location, type of incident, assigned radio frequencies and related information that is available shall be relayed to responding aircraft and updated as appropriate.
4. If OCFA Dispatch receives a call for service involving an uninjured person in any of the mountainous areas or hiking trails in Orange County, the call will be transferred to OCSD Dispatch in order to dispatch the OCSD helicopter for the search and rescue portion of the mission. The OCFA helicopter will be launched based on incident needs to support the rescue portion of the mission.
5. If OCSD Dispatch receives a call for service involving an uninjured person in any of the mountainous areas or hiking trails in Orange County, they will dispatch the OCSD helicopter for the search and rescue portion of the mission. The OCFA helicopter will be launched based on incident needs to support the rescue portion of the mission.
6. If OCFA Dispatch receives a call for service involving an injured person in any of the mountainous areas or hiking trails in Orange County, the call will be transferred to OCSD Dispatch in order to dispatch the OCSD helicopter for the search portion of the mission. The OCFA helicopter will be launched for the rescue portion of the mission. The OCSD helicopter will remain on station to direct the OCFA helicopter to the location of the injured person.
___________________________________________________________
TRAINING:
Periodic interagency training shall be conducted for the purpose of improving working relationships and operational coordination between OCSD and OCFA aircraft. This training shall be coordinated through the OCFA Fire Chief’s designee and the Orange County Sheriff’s designee.
___________________________________________________________
^^ looks like those OCFA Fire Chief's should attend more of those training classes!
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The helicopters mess should be fixed later this year.
Start reading from page 168 on this PDF.
http://www.ocgov.com/civicax/filebank/blobdload.aspx?blobid=66304
Start reading from page 168 on this PDF.
http://www.ocgov.com/civicax/filebank/blobdload.aspx?blobid=66304
Another issue happened the other day again with Duke-6 creeping into Laguna's area and hanging out waiting for calls to come in. OCFA had the team already being dispatched for a remote resuce and of course again OCSD dropped their rescuers in and made a decision and called off the OCFA units before they could even arrive.
Laguna Beach Division Chief was not too thrilled about it and had then when they landed to make a direct phone call to the division chief. OCSD wanted to talk about it over the air and the division chief said NO. Call them directly when grounded.
bb911
Member
You must be an old timer like myself. That's always been our understanding.
bb911
Member
Oh really, could you tell us just a bit more about your previous experiences and work as a vol FF? You seem to be so knowledgeable.
piper9285
Member
It's easy to understand why they were fighting over this call. The victim was a cute, bikini clad girl, and they wanted to be her hero. It's all there in the audio.
But seriously though; why was OCSD wasting gas on a drunk guy? There was no trauma, no airway obstruction, no bleeding, and no need to get the dude to the hospital as quick as possible.
I hope that crew got reamed for that. That was totally unprofessional.
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bb911
Member
Article on subject
Audio: Orange County can't decide on search-and-rescue protocol | 89.3 KPCC
The Orange County Sheriff’s Department and the county Fire Authority said this week they’ve reached an impasse in talks on who should be the lead agency in carrying out search-and-rescue operations using helicopters.
Audio: Orange County can't decide on search-and-rescue protocol | 89.3 KPCC
The Orange County Sheriff’s Department and the county Fire Authority said this week they’ve reached an impasse in talks on who should be the lead agency in carrying out search-and-rescue operations using helicopters.
This was from another news agency
This is from City News Service this morning:
The following is a story that some people might find worrisome ...
especially if they live in Orange County. Sheriff Sandra Hutchens and Orange
County Fire Authority Chief Jeff Bowman are telling the Orange County Board of
Supervisors that despite 40 meetings ... they cannot reach an agreement on how
to coordinate search-and-rescue efforts. The dispute over which agency should
take charge in the air in search-and-rescue operations came to a boil in Laguna
Beach recently when there was a near-drowning ... and the sheriff's helicopter
got there first.
Officials believe there was an agreement between the sheriff and
firefighters dating to the 19-60s ... but no one can find the document ... so
the supervisors instead decided to adopt search-and-rescue protocol for the
sheriff before a memorandum of understanding with the fire authority expires in
about a month. The sheriff's department answers to the supervisors. The fire
authority does not. Hutchens and Bowman asked for a mediator. The board refused
and told them yesterday to keep negotiating.
This is from City News Service this morning:
The following is a story that some people might find worrisome ...
especially if they live in Orange County. Sheriff Sandra Hutchens and Orange
County Fire Authority Chief Jeff Bowman are telling the Orange County Board of
Supervisors that despite 40 meetings ... they cannot reach an agreement on how
to coordinate search-and-rescue efforts. The dispute over which agency should
take charge in the air in search-and-rescue operations came to a boil in Laguna
Beach recently when there was a near-drowning ... and the sheriff's helicopter
got there first.
Officials believe there was an agreement between the sheriff and
firefighters dating to the 19-60s ... but no one can find the document ... so
the supervisors instead decided to adopt search-and-rescue protocol for the
sheriff before a memorandum of understanding with the fire authority expires in
about a month. The sheriff's department answers to the supervisors. The fire
authority does not. Hutchens and Bowman asked for a mediator. The board refused
and told them yesterday to keep negotiating.
drsl2000
Member
OCFA just as childish
I have listened to two of these incidents now in the last 4 months. One behind my house, near Santiago Oaks Park, and the other near Aliso/Woods Canyon Park.
The Santiago Oaks incident was odd because the IC kept trying to get the Sherriff to stand-down, telling them Copter-2 was en route…but the Sherriff helicopter’s position was, heh, we already got rescuers to the patient and said they were staying "in the interest of patient safety.”
What I thought was odd was OCFA didn’t want to work with the Sheriffs Helo. Once the Sheriffs said, they were already there, tell us what you want us to do, we aren’t leaving, the IC disbanded and left! Even cancelling all the ground resources for patient transport. Forcing Duke to go by air.
It sounded like "If you don’t play by my rules, I'm taking the ball and going home"
The IC system is very slow. Some of these rescues for bikers/hikers take an hour; time to find the injured, go and pick up rescuers at a local LZ (Irvine Park, or Loma Ridge) , then drop rescuers, evaluate, extract.. They also send ground forces in by foot, from two different locations…
I can see why the Duke(s) are more efficient.. They fly over, find you, and immediately drop a rescuer… Who would you prefer?
I have listened to two of these incidents now in the last 4 months. One behind my house, near Santiago Oaks Park, and the other near Aliso/Woods Canyon Park.
The Santiago Oaks incident was odd because the IC kept trying to get the Sherriff to stand-down, telling them Copter-2 was en route…but the Sherriff helicopter’s position was, heh, we already got rescuers to the patient and said they were staying "in the interest of patient safety.”
What I thought was odd was OCFA didn’t want to work with the Sheriffs Helo. Once the Sheriffs said, they were already there, tell us what you want us to do, we aren’t leaving, the IC disbanded and left! Even cancelling all the ground resources for patient transport. Forcing Duke to go by air.
It sounded like "If you don’t play by my rules, I'm taking the ball and going home"
The IC system is very slow. Some of these rescues for bikers/hikers take an hour; time to find the injured, go and pick up rescuers at a local LZ (Irvine Park, or Loma Ridge) , then drop rescuers, evaluate, extract.. They also send ground forces in by foot, from two different locations…
I can see why the Duke(s) are more efficient.. They fly over, find you, and immediately drop a rescuer… Who would you prefer?
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