Operating from battery

[vagrant]

TLDR: For home use, a heavy and less costly 100Ah deep cycle battery that would not need to be moved around will work fine for a short term power outage and blasting away with 5W. It will also enjoy all the fast charging you can give it when the power comes back on. Even with simplex use, I would use 5W and "step it up" to 10, 20 and maximum 40W if needed temporarily. Your battery life will thank you later.


Anyways...

I have definitely not come across a 100 Ah LiFePO4 battery for a bit over $100. I would not purchase one for that price if I found it, unless thousands have travelled that road ahead of me and confirmed the specs through testing and use.

A LiFePO4 battery "may" be able to charge/discharge at 1C, but the overall lifespan/charge cycles will be reduced. A LiFePO4 that is charged/discharged at a 0.2C rate ( not 1C ) will probably last the thousands of cycles the MFG. notes about the particular battery. This is a case of just because you can, does not mean you should go full bore scenario (you know who you are). That noted, a 100Ah LiFePO4 battery would handle an HF radio using 100W on phone just fine. Also, 400W of solar panels in full sunlight may produce around 20A going through a LiFePO4 solar controller, which would be ideal for a 100Ah LiFePO4 battery as that is close enough to a 0.2C rate. One could transmit using 100W FM for probably four hours continuously. I would not do that with a deep cycle acid battery.

The advantage of the LiFePO4 is not worrying about destroying the battery as well as being able to use more amp hours out of it because of the BMS (Battery Management System) typically built into the battery. The BMS will stop the flow of electricity until the battery is charged again. I task a 100W solar panel and a 32AH LiFePO4 battery to keep a 12v refrigerator running while camping. No problem during the day of course and it handles it fine from sunset to sunrise. I tested it with the battery and 12v cooler outdoors, but in the shade for several days. The temperature was over 105°F during the day and still plenty hot at night. I also opened and closed the cooler as one would do. It remained at 38°F no problem.

 

[jazzboypro]

Can you explain further the 1C/0.2C charge/discharge rate

 

[krokus]

There are other battery backup options from this crew, including some desiged to charge the battery from a solar supply:

DC Power Models - West Mountain Radio

West Mountain Radio offers a variety of power management devices to protect both the radio equipment and the power systems they are connected to. These devices provide both battery charge management and load management features. They are for public safety, commercial, marine and amateur radio...

www.westmountainradio.com

 

[vagrant]

1C of a 100Ah battery is 100Ah.
0.2C of a 100Ah battery is 20Ah. (A 100W radio may draw around 20Ah using FM which is fine for a 100Ah battery)

Extra stuff for those that do not know…
Not all LiFePO4 batteries can even do 1C, whether charge or discharge. I label my batteries after reading the specs for that particular battery and avoid stressing it. I prefer LiFePO because I use them when portable. They are light and I don’t worry about killing them by draining them. The BMS stops that.

A regular vehicle battery is best for a vehicle, due to the very short high power draw and high recharge rate from the alternator. A vehicle battery for radio is okay if supplied with power, or only 30% is used with no recharge supply.

A deep cycle battery is good for non portable radio standby. It has thicker materials to handle lower power deep charge/discharge rates and many cycles. That is also why they are heavy. They work fine with radios for short term use. Repeater owners may use several deep cycle batteries in parallel and or series, depending on their repeater voltage and current needs during a power outage. These can be 12v or 6v batteries. People also use the phrase golf cart battery. These are deep cycle batteries that offer 6v and are discharged/charged at a lower rate many times. For radio we could use these in series (2) to get 12v and then perhaps in parallel (4) as well to get more amps for longer run times.

 

[jazzboypro]

Ok so i might be interested in this Battery. The recommended current to charge the battery is 30A. Since my Astron RS35M is rated at 25A continuous i need to change my power supply or buy this Charger. Assuming i buy both the battery and the charger i would i go about getting the battery kick in automatically when the main power goes down ?

 

[prcguy]

That's a nice battery and you will definitely be a big shot battery owner with bragging rights. But for less $$ you could have a bank of 10, 100AH deep cycle batteries for a total of 1,000AH of backup power. That's not realistic for what you are doing but if you look at it another way, buying a 100AH gel cell for under $100 and replacing it every 3-5yrs will give you power for the next 30-50yrs where the one Lithium battery for the same price might last 10yrs but probably less.

Ok so i might be interested in this Battery. The recommended current to charge the battery is 30A. Since my Astron RS35M is rated at 25A continuous i need to change my power supply or buy this Charger. Assuming i buy both the battery and the charger i would i go about getting the battery kick in automatically when the main power goes down ?

 

[AM909]

1C of a 100Ah battery is 100Ah.
0.2C of a 100Ah battery is 20Ah. (A 100W radio may draw around 20Ah using FM which is fine for a 100Ah battery)

A few too many h there, right? (Yes, I had to cheat and looked it up as it's been decades for me. )

 

[mmckenna]

Ok so i might be interested in this Battery. The recommended current to charge the battery is 30A. Since my Astron RS35M is rated at 25A continuous i need to change my power supply or buy this Charger. Assuming i buy both the battery and the charger i would i go about getting the battery kick in automatically when the main power goes down ?

$1000??????!?!?!?!?!?

Seriously? I agree with PRCGUY, way to much money for what you are getting, other than bragging rights. If you treat gel cells right, and don't abuse them, you'll easily get 7-10 years out of them. I can buy a couple of 12v 100ah gel cells for that price.

The issue is people abuse the crap out of their batteries and get upset when they don't last very long. The lithium batteries with the built in controllers make them (expletive) proof, but it's really easy to treat the gel cells right and not need it.

No way I'd pay $1000 for a battery like that. Hell, you can buy a really nice generator for that price and have a lot more flexibility.

And the product I linked to in the second post will handle the transition when the power goes out.

 

[DeoVindice]

A 100AH gell cell and a 60 to 100W solar panel can run some radios for a very long time. In the mid 80s I got a few 35AH gel cells and found it could power my Kenwood TS-430 for many nights of listening and some talking on HF, so you don't need a ton of AH for SSB use. FM will need more AH but for occasional use you would probably never run out of power.

In the US here we have Costco and other cheap warehouse type stores and a 100AH class battery is about $86 and solar panels and chargers are getting cheaper every day.

I've found that a 240Wh Li-Ion pack and a 60W solar panel will run a 15W mobile, several portables, and a few cell phones indefinitely in an open area where the panel can be oriented toward the sun most of the day. I did that for a solid week on a camping trip in Utah this summer.

 

[vagrant]

@jazzboypro You noted the battery is for short duration radio backup power at your home. A LiFePO4 is a lot of expense when you do not need a lightweight battery. You would also need a LiFePO4 charger as well for those battery types. They're great for frequent loading/unloading for camping trips.

Anyways, find that $100 100Ah deep cell battery at Costco prcguy noted and use that $50 device mmckenna linked to. Just connect it to your Astron and you're done. If you really want to have more power and not worry about a long power outage, just get another (the same) 100Ah battery and connect them in parallel. If the power goes out you could charge up your phones/devices/handheld radios as well with a power port adapter AKA cigarette lighter plug. For another $150 more you could get a 100W solar panel, controller and some wire for sunshine use. If you're really worried about power there's always inexpensive low watt generators, but you may need to make a box with torroids to keep the noise down, whereas Honda generators don't have those RFI issues. Still, you may not notice the noise on VHF and up.

Also, put the batteries into trays because things happen.

 

[jazzboypro]

Maybe i'm not searching properly but i have not found a 100 Ah gel cell for about 100$. Gel cell seem to be harder to find compared to AGM batteries. I don't if people are using the term gel for both gel and AGM batteries but from what i could read gel and AGM are not quite the same. The prices i see for these batteries are around 300$ and up.

 

[mmckenna]

Maybe i'm not searching properly but i have not found a 100 Ah gel cell for about 100$. Gel cell seem to be harder to find compared to AGM batteries. I don't if people are using the term gel for both gel and AGM batteries but from what i could read gel and AGM are not quite the same. The prices i see for these batteries are around 300$ and up.

AGM = Absorbed Glass Mat. It has to do with how the acid is held in place.
Gel Cell just means it's a gelled acid solution.

The two are not exclusive.

And I doubt you'll find a 100ah 12 volt AGM battery for $100. The last ones I bought for a radio site were Enersys 12v125 batteries and they were $367 each. But those were some higher spec batteries and I needed them quick, so I wasn't able to shop around.

I think what people may be suggesting is getting a deep cycle AGM battery from an auto parts store and using that. If it's the right kind, it should work just fine. Those will be in the $175-$200 range.

But I doubt you need 100ah battery based on what you've said above. Running a mobile radio at 5 watts is only going to pull a couple of amps on transmit, and you'll probably be doing 90% listening, which would pull an amp or less. I think you could easily run something in the 35-50ah range and do fine. That would get you through the night easily and let you recharge from a solar panel, generator or when the utility power is restored.

 

[jazzboypro]

AGM = Absorbed Glass Mat. It has to do with how the acid is held in place.
Gel Cell just means it's a gelled acid solution.

The two are not exclusive.

And I doubt you'll find a 100ah 12 volt AGM battery for $100. The last ones I bought for a radio site were Enersys 12v125 batteries and they were $367 each. But those were some higher spec batteries and I needed them quick, so I wasn't able to shop around.

I think what people may be suggesting is getting a deep cycle AGM battery from an auto parts store and using that. If it's the right kind, it should work just fine. Those will be in the $175-$200 range.

But I doubt you need 100ah battery based on what you've said above. Running a mobile radio at 5 watts is only going to pull a couple of amps on transmit, and you'll probably be doing 90% listening, which would pull an amp or less. I think you could easily run something in the 35-50ah range and do fine. That would get you through the night easily and let you recharge from a solar panel, generator or when the utility power is restored.

Yes i know it has to do with how the acid is held in place, very interesting technologies. Both have pros and cons when compared to each other and i think it's important to realize that gel and AGM are not the same thing. I was referring to the 100Ah at 100$ battery because it as been suggested one or twice in that thread that such a battery exists but i have not found it yet. If it does it must be some low quality battery i suppose. I will do some more reading but putting the price aside, lithium appears to be the way to go.

 

[mmckenna]

I was referring to the 100Ah at 100$ battery because it as been suggested one or twice in that thread that such a battery exists but i have not found it yet. If it does it must be some low quality battery i suppose.

Yeah, unless they are referring to a cheap Wal Mart brand deep cycle battery, I think you'd have a hard time finding a $100 100ah battery that was of any decent quality. Maybe 20 years ago, but not now. For a decent AGM battery, in that size, you're probably looking at north of $200.

Good luck on the Lithium. Let us know how it works out.

 

[jazzboypro]

Yeah, unless they are referring to a cheap Wal Mart brand deep cycle battery, I think you'd have a hard time finding a $100 100ah battery that was of any decent quality. Maybe 20 years ago, but not now. For a decent AGM battery, in that size, you're probably looking at north of $200.

Good luck on the Lithium. Let us know how it works out.

I don't know yet what i'm going to use. What i have found so far is that good quality gel/agm 12v 100Ah batteries are not as cheap as people seem to think. It's way over 200$ This one for example is 791$ and still has 50% DOD. not much cheaper than lithium. Maybe those batteries are good for those who have solar panels systems.

 

[FKimble]

Ref the $100 100amp hr battery: If you go to the link in Merlin's earlier post, it is for the charger not the battery itself. So $100 plus charge for the charger!

Frank

 

[jazzboypro]

Ref the $100 100amp hr battery: If you go to the link in Merlin's earlier post, it is for the charger not the battery itself. So $100 plus charge for the charger!

Post #9 on page 1 and post #6 and #10 on page 2 refer to sub 100 100Ah batteries. I'm not saying that a cheap deep cycle wall mart battery won't do the job but usually you get what you pay for and a decent good quality battery is several hundred dollars.

 

[mmckenna]

I don't know yet what i'm going to use. What i have found so far is that good quality gel/agm 12v 100Ah batteries are not as cheap as people seem to think. It's way over 200$ This one for example is 791$ and still has 50% DOD. not much cheaper than lithium. Maybe those batteries are good for those who have solar panels systems.

If you are in Laval, Quebec, then the exchange rate is going to hose you pretty bad. Most of us are in the U.S. so we're using US Dollars.

From the link you supplied, that looks like a janitorial supply place selling replacement batteries for a floor cleaning machine. That's going to be overly inflated pricing since it's directed at those that don't understand this stuff and are going to assume that they must use an OEM replacement battery.

I purchase my batteries from a few dealers down here that specialize in telecom battery systems. I'm usually seeing $200-$300 USD for 100ah batteries.

You need to find a local dealer that specializes in telecom system batteries. You may also have luck with companies that sell fire alarm systems, as they usually run 12 volt gel cells.

If you were local to me, I'd happily give you some of our gently used 12 volt batteries. I have enough sites that we usually do one or two a year. I used to give them to local ham operators, but most of those guys have disappeared.

 

[mmckenna]

Ref the $100 100amp hr battery: If you go to the link in Merlin's earlier post, it is for the charger not the battery itself. So $100 plus charge for the charger!

Frank

He's already got a RM-35 12 volt supply. With the battery revert add on I posted in Post #2, he's got all he needs. This is a pretty simple solution.

And I still think a 100a/h battery is too large for the application. Unlikely you'll ever come close to needing that capacity for a VHF/UHF radio running 5 watts. Something in the 35a/h range would be suitable.

 

[captainmax1]

I use these solar generators and solar panels listed below. They are expensive but beside running radios, they will keep the lights, tv, refrigerator, etc. running when power is off. I used them during hurricane Irma when power was off for 3 weeks. I also had a small gasoline generator for rainy and cloudy days. They are great for tailgating and Ham festivals too. You only need the smallest power station and a 100-watt solar panel to run just a radio, cell phone charger and couple lights. I have the 200 and the 1000 at my house along with six 100-watt panels.
Goal Zero Yeti 200X Portable Power Station Yeti 200X Power Station / Goal Zero
Goal Zero Yeti 1000X Portable Power Station / Goal Zero
Portable Solar Panels | Goal Zero/Goal Zero