Operating from battery

[jazzboypro]

The charger for the car is a level 2 charger (240 VAC @ 30A) I can't really tap into it and don't want to anyway. Running a cable from the cigarette lighter to my operating position would be a pain.

 

[O-B-1]

With all the electric cars on the road now, maybe shopping at the local wrecking yard will soon prove to be a viable source of lithium storage cells?

 

[MUTNAV]

With all the electric cars on the road now, maybe shopping at the local wrecking yard will soon prove to be a viable source of lithium storage cells?

That's where Bob Bruninga got some batteries for his experiments with electric cars and power sources.

The batteries are of course kind of dangerous (voltage wise). There are also some you tubes on how to assemble bulk batteries into a "power wall" by soldering individual 18650s into groups and then into banks. If I remember correctly though, each individual cell has to be tested (and matched) for its viability.

Recycling batteries sounds like a great electronics entrepreneur business opportunity (if it isn't already a common business).

Thanks
Joel

 

[jazzboypro]

With all the electric cars on the road now, maybe shopping at the local wrecking yard will soon prove to be a viable source of lithium storage cells?

I'm pretty sure the wrecking yards already do something with the batteries they might even be required by law to dispose of them properly

 

[krokus]

With all the electric cars on the road now, maybe shopping at the local wrecking yard will soon prove to be a viable source of lithium storage cells?

I'm pretty sure the wrecking yards already do something with the batteries they might even be required by law to dispose of them properly

You can count on them being highly sought after items, possibly with restrictions on access. (Due to the lithium.)

 

[jazzboypro]

Hello guys, it's been a while since i started that thread. I got all the components now and i'm kind of ready to hook everything together. Before i do so, here is a little drawing on how i think everything should be connected together.



I spoke with the manufacturer. The charger, battery and monitor kit are meant to work together. The relay switch is the one suggested in post 76 of this thread. The monitor kit connection is omitted it is shown clearly in the manual how to hook it up. So does it make sense ? am i forgetting something ?

Many thanks

VA2FCS
73 de Sylvain

 

[mmckenna]

Looks pretty good, but here's some suggestions, take them as input from some random dude on the internet:

If it was me, I'd probably not connect the charger and the output directly to the battery. Not sure what the budget is, or how reliable you want this, but I'd probably put in a separate + and - buss to connect the charger and relay to. That way you reduce the number of connections at the battery, where corrosion may be an issue.

You need fuses/breakers. Fuse all the positive connections:
Charger to battery
Battery to Relay
Power Supply to Relay
and of course, the radio.

I'd probably also bond all the chassis together at a common ground buss, and unless contraindicated by the manufacturer, connect the negative batter to that.

I'd add a fused/breaker'd distribution block for your radios.

Master kill switch, on the battery +. High current stuff can get messy. Having a way to disconnect the juice if there's a fault or you are just going on vacation, is a good idea.

 

[jazzboypro]

Looks pretty good, but here's some suggestions, take them as input from some random dude on the internet:

If it was me, I'd probably not connect the charger and the output directly to the battery. Not sure what the budget is, or how reliable you want this, but I'd probably put in a separate + and - buss to connect the charger and relay to. That way you reduce the number of connections at the battery, where corrosion may be an issue.

You need fuses/breakers. Fuse all the positive connections:
Charger to battery
Battery to Relay
Power Supply to Relay
and of course, the radio.

I'd probably also bond all the chassis together at a common ground buss, and unless contraindicated by the manufacturer, connect the negative batter to that.

I'd add a fused/breaker'd distribution block for your radios.

Master kill switch, on the battery +. High current stuff can get messy. Having a way to disconnect the juice if there's a fault or you are just going on vacation, is a good idea.

This will be an indoor installation in the basement. Not sure corrosion is an issue but having a separate + an - bus is a good idea. I did not put the fuses in the drawing but they will be there. Apart from the Amps rating, is there any particular type of fuse that i should use ?

Thanks for the suggestions and tips

 

[mmckenna]

This will be an indoor installation in the basement. Not sure corrosion is an issue but having a separate + an - bus is a good idea. I did not put the fuses in the drawing but they will be there. Apart from the Amps rating, is there any particular type of fuse that i should use ?

Thanks for the suggestions and tips

Sounds good.

Fuse type would depend on how many amps you expect to pull, and what the system is rated for.
Anything under 30 amps, and the automotive ATO type fuses are good, cheap, easy to find.

Above 30 to about 60 amps, the Maxi-Fuses are a good choice. I've used those for power feeds in vehicles before.
https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Sys...ve&sprefix=bluesea+maxi,automotive,159&sr=1-1

Above 60 amps, you can get fuses, but they can be pricy, especially with the holders. That tends to be where I start using Buss circuit breakers.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01FWMM09O/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

For fuse holders, BlueSea is an excellent brand.



And make sure your batteries are well vented. If the are charged at too high a voltage, get drained too fast, or some other faults, they can outgas hydrogen. You don't want hydrogen in your basement, especially if there is a furnace/water heater down there.

 

[jazzboypro]

Sounds good.

Fuse type would depend on how many amps you expect to pull, and what the system is rated for.
Anything under 30 amps, and the automotive ATO type fuses are good, cheap, easy to find.

Above 30 to about 60 amps, the Maxi-Fuses are a good choice. I've used those for power feeds in vehicles before.
https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-Maxi-Block/dp/B000THTBZO/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2ETQAZ8C03LIY&keywords=blue+sea+maxi&qid=1647393746&s=automotive&sprefix=bluesea+maxi,automotive,159&sr=1-1

Above 60 amps, you can get fuses, but they can be pricy, especially with the holders. That tends to be where I start using Buss circuit breakers.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01FWMM09O/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

For fuse holders, BlueSea is an excellent brand.



And make sure your batteries are well vented. If the are charged at too high a voltage, get drained too fast, or some other faults, they can outgas hydrogen. You don't want hydrogen in your basement, especially if there is a furnace/water heater down there.

The battery charger is rated at 30 Amps and it is the recommended charging current for the battery. The switch relay is also rated at 30 Amps so this the maximum current used in the system. I will make sure the battery is vented but it is a lithium battery so i don't think any fumes or gas of any kind will be a problem.

Thanks for the fuse and fuse holder recommendation.

 

[mmckenna]

The battery charger is rated at 30 Amps and it is the recommended charging current for the battery. The switch relay is also rated at 30 Amps so this the maximum current used in the system. I will make sure the battery is vented but it is a lithium battery so i don't think any fumes or gas of any kind will be a problem.

Thanks for the fuse and fuse holder recommendation.

OK, yeah, lithium isn't a problem. It's the gel cells that can be the concern.

Looks like that's going to be a nice setup. If you want to get fancier down the road, add a solar panel and run it all for free.

 

[jazzboypro]

OK, yeah, lithium isn't a problem. It's the gel cells that can be the concern.

Looks like that's going to be a nice setup. If you want to get fancier down the road, add a solar panel and run it all for free.

I never really looked at solar panels, might be problematic during winter around here. As for the fuses i noticed that all my radios original power cables have both the negative and positive leads fused, should i do the same for all connections in the circuit ?

 

[mmckenna]

I never really looked at solar panels, might be problematic during winter around here. As for the fuses i noticed that all my radios original power cables have both the negative and positive leads fused, should i do the same for all connections in the circuit ?

Not necessary. They do that on mobile ham radios where the condition of the vehicle electrics are in question.

For a base application, it's not needed. In a proper mobile installation, it's not needed.

 

[jazzboypro]

Not necessary. They do that on mobile ham radios where the condition of the vehicle electrics are in question.

For a base application, it's not needed. In a proper mobile installation, it's not needed.

Thanks, i'll go order the fuses and fuse holders (quite expensive indeed lol)

 

[MUTNAV]

Not necessary. They do that on mobile ham radios where the condition of the vehicle electrics are in question.

Isn't that the reason for lots of safety measures though, questionable conditions, equipment, or environment.

Thanks
Joel

 

[mmckenna]

Isn't that the reason for lots of safety measures though, questionable conditions, equipment, or environment.

Thanks
Joel

Absolutely.

It's rare to run across commercial mobile radios with fuses on both the + and -. In fact, most commercial radio manufacturers will instruct you to ground the - lead to the vehicle body, not run it all the way back to the battery. I had a 100 watt low band radio years ago, and the power lead was about 20 feet of #6 on the positive side and about 3 feet on the negative side. That was from the factory, still in the package.

Ham radios are the ones that come with fuses on both leads. Idea is that a crapped out strap from the battery negative post to the vehicle body/frame that is common in poorly maintained vehicles will result in current being drawn through the radio chassis, or in the rare cases of a ham with a permanent mount antenna, through the coax. Putting a fuse on the negative lead addresses that level of negligence.

Not knocking on hams, here. I'm a ham, have been for a long time. The issue is the less than ideal install skills. Hams/hobbyists tend to be in a hurry and will cut corners to get the radio and antenna installed. Also, fleet vehicles are ~usually~ much better maintained than the average car on the road. (not always, but usually).

 

[jazzboypro]

In my case, it's not a mobile setup. The installation will be in my basement and it won't be moved around once i'm done. So far all my radios and power supply power cords are still working with their original fuses, never changed one so far.

 

[BMDaug]

Rigrunner distro products don’t ground the negative side... I guess I can see the justification for situations where there are many
devices using the chassis of a vehicle as ground while also using that same bodywork as the antenna counterpoise like we often see in mobile setups. However, as previously stated, that’s not how commercial LMR installs are done. My Harris is the same as @mmckenna describes. Short ground wire unfused to the chassis and the positive wire fused, then to the battery, done!

My manpack with the Harris XG-100M is fused on the positive side only since it’s a closed system with sleeved wiring and locked Anderson Powerpole all around, straight to the Bioenno 30AH LiFePO4 battery. I can run for more than a whole day at 50W and talk as much as I want.

You get a lot more talk time out of a LiFePO4 than you do with most other chemistries since you don’t want to run most other chemistries below 50% due to their voltage drop curve. The Bioenno was expensive but it has a very long life, it only weighs 7LBS/30AH (which is important for a man portable setup), plus it’s nontoxic.

This is a really interesting solution: PowerPlus™ - now with Mobile Mode! [BACKORDER]
If only it was actually available and not ”coming soon”. It’s a power distro with voltage and current monitor and it’s a UPS which uses the main power supply as the battery charger and then does a changeover to the battery when the main supply goes down.

-B

 

[mmckenna]

Rigrunner distro products don’t ground the negative side... I guess I can see the justification for situations where there are many
devices using the chassis of a vehicle as ground while also using that same bodywork as the antenna counterpoise like we often see in mobile setups. However, as previously stated, that’s not how commercial LMR installs are done. My Harris is the same as @mmckenna describes. Short ground wire unfused to the chassis and the positive wire fused, then to the battery, done!

The other issue is that some faults can open the negative fuse, and the power will just find a path back through the antenna mount or the radio bracket.

 

[MUTNAV]

I have to wonder if not putting a fuse on the negative side is a partial transfer of the idea of never fusing a ground in A/C circuitry.

Whatcha think?

Thanks Joel