Orange County CCCS P25 Update

[Remscan]

Well that doesn’t sound like it is going to happen now unless there is a major change to the system.

I wonder how many Base transmitters (Dispatch) there are. Possibly put them in the clear, and the mobiles can still talk back encrypted. At least we would hear the dispatch of where a fire is at.

Maybe thats not as easy as I think.

 

[MEDIC135]

I wonder how many Base transmitters (Dispatch) there are. Possibly put them in the clear, and the mobiles can still talk back encrypted. At least we would hear the dispatch of where a fire is at.

Maybe thats not as easy as I think.

They’re not gonna do that due to PulsePoint being a thing in Orange County

 

[AM909]

May 17, 2022

Subject: Radio Encryption
...

Has this been published anywhere?

 

[marcotor]

May 17, 2022

Subject: Radio Encryption

But.. but... but.. don't you read all the comments here from the scanning experts? They obviously know more than the System Administrators and the hardware techs on how the system works!!!!!!!

All they have to do is FLIP A SWITCH!

 

[WX4JCW]

But.. but... but.. don't you read all the comments here from the scanning experts? They obviously know more than the System Administrators and the hardware techs on how the system works!!!!!!!

All they have to do is FLIP A SWITCH!

Lol not flipping a switch, but it can be done, in fact from the time they announced it to now it could have been accomplished.
now imagine if the key actually leaked or was compromised in some way (yes I know it's AES256, but this is a theoretical argument).

So theoretically if the key was Compromised imagine the motivation and speed at which a rekey would be accomplished (again yes if they Have OTAR it can be fast but again theoretical argument), so its just the techs, admins, etc dragging feet

 

[tsalmrsystemtech]

All I can say at this point that The Chief has the information straight from the Moto website on what OTAP and what OTAR is.

At least if he is not a big technical person then at least he knows and can be educated on how to handle multiple radios in a commercial public safety environment. So if he goes to meetings on this issue or has interaction with radio comms then he can be able handle himself with this information in his back pocket. Just trying to keep this professional at this point.

 

[marcotor]

Lol not flipping a switch, but it can be done, in fact from the time they announced it to now it could have been accomplished.

It appears you have some knowledge of this situation, while missing the sarcasm of my post. But, please do tell us how it could have been "already accomplished" given the staffing level and the lack of OTAR infrastructure?

 

[firecaptdave]

I think the short answer is that if OC fire agencies go unencrypted then folks will realize that LE can easily do so and that's something LE simply doesn't want to do.

 

[WX4JCW]

I think the short answer is that if OC fire agencies go unencrypted then folks will realize that LE can easily do so and that's something LE simply doesn't want to do.

Exactly that's the politics of it

 

[WX4JCW]

It appears you have some knowledge of this situation, while missing the sarcasm of my post. But, please do tell us how it could have been "already accomplished" given the staffing level and the lack of OTAR infrastructure?

my sarcasm filter is being upgraded, sorry the parts were on back order

It's not merely turning off the "Key", each talkgroup in each radio is most likely "strapped" to the encryption setting, being that in most cases agencies opt to not allow a user to disable encryption, each radio will need to be reprogrammed to remove that "strap" so yes I understand depending on how many subscriber radios, consoles, etc, probably over 5000 will need to be programmed that will take time to do, I completely understand that.

what you didn't acknowledge was my comment that despite any staffing levels that if the key was compromised it is surprising what an agency can do when properly motivated, especially when you have a chief or sheriff's foot in your rear end, I am by no means an expert nor claim to be, however, I have been in the arena for a while, and as firecaptdave so eloquently said is the main point

 

[AM909]

Someone pointed out a while back that they have a lot of tech job vacancies. These past couple of decades are not producing many two-way techs, with kids gravitating towards computers instead. Though programming radios would seem to not necessarily require the same level of communications chops as actually testing/repairing handhelds or mobile installs (a separate skillset in itself), I understand at least one large SoCal service department requires candidates to have a GROL. They also need some radio sense to know if the thing works when they're done with it (though one could argue that re-programming isn't likely to break anything that wasn't already broken, though one could argue it's still a good time to bench test while you have your hands on it (yes, I'm channeling Tevye )

 

[monitor142]

It appears you have some knowledge of this situation, while missing the sarcasm of my post. But, please do tell us how it could have been "already accomplished" given the staffing level and the lack of OTAR infrastructure?

Orange County does in fact have OTAR/OTAP capability with the move to their P25 system. RM is heavily used too.

-M142

 

[mikegilbert]

Orange County does in fact have OTAR/OTAP capability with the move to their P25 system. RM is heavily used too.

-M142

Wow! If they're using RM/OTAP/OTAR, they're feeding the public 100% BS with their "it's going to take years" estimates.

 

[tsalmrsystemtech]

So if they were using RM with OTAP and OTAR then somebody with a FIRE radio would of seen multiple zones with the old Motorola Analog Trunked system in it with the new P25 trunked Zones when the system was upgraded three years ago.

Now if you have a fire radio in service today with only zones with P25 trunking and the old zones are now gone then we would know for sure they are using RM with OTAP and OTAR without a doubt a 100 percent unless the radio has been in for servicing and firmware upgraded for a hardware issue. If so, then the radio would of probably been re programmed as part of the servicing

Now think about this one for a minute and this would be the test.

 

[monitor142]

So if they were using RM with OTAP and OTAR then somebody with a FIRE radio would of seen multiple zones with the old Motorola Analog Trunked system in it with the new P25 trunked Zones when the system was upgraded three years ago.

Now if you have a fire radio in service today with only zones with P25 trunking and the old zones are now gone then we would know for sure they are using RM with OTAP and OTAR without a doubt a 100 percent unless the radio has been in for servicing and firmware upgraded for a hardware issue. If so, then the radio would of probably been re programmed as part of the servicing

Now think about this one for a minute and this would be the test.

That is exactly the situation. The old 3600 system was in the first part of the zone lineup with the P25 in the later portion. OTAP is resolving this over time. Anything that is already in RM would be queued up for a new template removing the 6C3F info.

 

[bbpowers92]

Is there a specific band plan for this system? Last month while visiting, i had my xts5000 all programmed up and didn't hear a peep. I do realize law and fire were encrypted so i wasn't worried about that. Trunked Channel ID was 851.00625, -45, 6.25 and 762.00625 +30, 6.25. I have it programmed the same way for oklahoma and hear everything just fine. Any tips would be helpful. Thank you.

 

[AM909]

Is there a specific band plan for this system? Last month while visiting, i had my xts5000 all programmed up and didn't hear a peep. I do realize law and fire were encrypted so i wasn't worried about that. Trunked Channel ID was 851.00625, -45, 6.25 and 762.00625 +30, 6.25. I have it programmed the same way for oklahoma and hear everything just fine. Any tips would be helpful. Thank you.

That's it AFAICT. I've logged this same bandplan on several of the sites:

    IDEN_UP              ID=0 Base=851.006250 Offset=-45 Spacing=6.25 BW=12.5
    IDEN_UP              ID=1 Base=762.006250 Offset=+30 Spacing=6.25 BW=12.5
    IDEN_UP_TDMA         ID=2 Base=851.012500 Offset=-45 Spacing=12.5 BW=12.5 Slots=2
    IDEN_UP_TDMA         ID=3 Base=762.006250 Offset=+30 Spacing=12.5 BW=12.5 Slots=2

However, all I've seen used are the band 0 channels.

 

[bbpowers92]

That's it AFAICT. I've logged this same bandplan on several of the sites:

    IDEN_UP              ID=0 Base=851.006250 Offset=-45 Spacing=6.25 BW=12.5
    IDEN_UP              ID=1 Base=762.006250 Offset=+30 Spacing=6.25 BW=12.5
    IDEN_UP_TDMA         ID=2 Base=851.012500 Offset=-45 Spacing=12.5 BW=12.5 Slots=2
    IDEN_UP_TDMA         ID=3 Base=762.006250 Offset=+30 Spacing=12.5 BW=12.5 Slots=2

However, all I've seen used are the band 0 channels.

Thank you for your input!

 

[tsalmrsystemtech]

May 17, 2022

Subject: Radio Encryption

Prior to stepping into my role as the Fire Chief of the Orange County Fire Authority (OCFA) in 2018, the 800MHz Governance Committee that manages the 800MHz Countywide Coordinated Communications System was completing a major upgrade on the entire radio system that included all 22,000 radios. Already, all law enforcement agencies and arson investigators throughout Orange County were utilizing encrypted radios, but a proposal was made at this time to encrypt the remaining 800MHz radios. The Orange County Fire Chiefs Association (OCFCA) voted unanimously to encrypt their remaining fire radios across the county.

Several factors contributed to this decision, including the safety of first responders at ongoing active shooting and/or terrorist incidents. From a technical standpoint, it was also initially thought that once the radios were encrypted, it would be possible to decrypt without significant difficulty if and when such a move was deemed necessary.

However, immediately following the fire service radios being encrypted, it was discovered that the process to decrypt OCFA radios would be as extensive and time consuming as it is costly and impractical. This is largely because the switch back requires hands-on technological adjustments on every single radio in the county — from fire and law enforcement to parks and recreation. Although I immediately directed the radios be decrypted, the enormity of the task and its fiscal impact soon made it apparent that a return to decrypted radio would be impossible at this time.

Fortunately, radio encryption does not impede OCFA’s mission to provide exceptional and timely emergency support services. That said, after hearing that some members of the media and community have grown to rely on radio scanners, the OCFA did develop a workaround to gain access to appropriate emergency frequencies. Specifically, the 800MHz tactical radio channels are now broadcast to the public via internet platforms such as Radio Reference and Broadcastify. This solution (along with the fact that the VHF radio frequencies used on all vegetation fires continue to be un-encrypted) has fit the needs for many.

Moving forward, we in the OCFA will continue to work with our partner agencies to better understand encryption, including researching the possibility of one day switching back to un-encrypted radios. For now, however, if a change back is possible, it is clear it could take several years. When there are any updates or changes in this arena, we will share them as transparently and efficiently as possible.

Sincerely,

Brian Fennessy

Fire Chief

SB 1000 passed and the Orange County Fire Departments are Encrypted. Makes no sense at this point. You will broadcast everything to the whole wide world but spend the time and put a plan into place to get the radio re-programmed

 

[AM909]

SB 1000 passed ...

Not yet. That clip talks about it passing the Senate in May. Last week, it seems it was passed out of one committee (Public Safety) in the Assembly, to the Appropriations Committee. It will then have to be approved there, scheduled for a floor vote and passed, then signed by the Governor (or something close to that). Bill Status - SB-1000 Law enforcement agencies: radio communications.