Programing a Trunked radio for monitoring only

[swilkos]

Seadoo (And all): exactly what I was looking for "Swilkos, I see your just inquiring, so im just giving you some answers." Not to stir up a hornets nest (which I now know it is lol), but to determine if it was even possible to do. Seems the short answer is "yep", with a huge amount of red flags. For the moment, will be adding a couple of scanners to the "shack", so hopefully that will quell the folks screaming "noooo!!!".

Scott

 

[kb0uxv]

Seadoo, Glad to see I am not alone. I do not want to give the wrong impression, the hams / scanner enthusiasts are a good bunch and I have no issues with them monitoring - that is until it interferes with mission critical communications, as is the case with this P25 affiliation issue. My primary job is police patrol, secondary radio system administrator, so you can see why I take this issue so seriously. Simply put I do not want to see someone hurt because of this. My intention here is not to point fingers, but rather to educate about the consequences of hacking a radio onto a system. No ill regard to Swilkos, you just unknowingly brought up a touchy subject.

 

[WayneH]

Folks, should I just Sticky this thread in hopes it answers anyone else's question of the like in the future?

We seem to get this every few months.

 

[chrismol1]

Yes.

And its more like every few weeks

 

[WayneH]

Stuck. Let the games begin....

Stay true to the topic or I'll delete posts!

 

[dsheli]

I think it is safe to say if you are asking how to do it on these forums then you don't know what your doing and thus don't need to be messing with it. My suggestion to you is to find some ham in your area who is a Motorola buff and start learning from him. With the XTS5000 you can program a TX Inhibit switch on the top (Normally used for secure and clear communications) and this will work fine on a legacy 4.x system. However if your program such feature on a 9600B (7.x) system the radio will not affiliate but it will also not un-mute until an affiliation has occurred. So short answer no way that I know of to program a receive only non-affiliating radio on a 7.x system.

 

[70cutlass442]

Im going ot put my .02 into this as I see there are severl other firefighters/emts/medics/leos on this site. And I guarantee that they can all relate to this if they ar eon a trunked system...


1. I get pissed when someone tears someone apart about asking this question... If you asked this on bat board they would be extremely rude about the issue and make you feel like a Dbag.


2. I would like to find someone that can/would do this on a dont ask/dont tell type of agreement as our department is finally about to pay off our last radio purchase (10 years ago) We are a type II system, and long story short, if you do not buy the radio from the company that maintains our system. you will not get ir programmed. You are stuck buying exclusively from them, and we know how much a new radio is at retail... then add $78 to program it. I feel this is wrong, it is a monopoly and we all know tax payer money could be spent elsewhere if we could save money on communication equipement

3. a cont. form above..... Now, the county is talking about changing over to digital... well our radios will not do digital.. so yep, you guessed it, just as one system is paid for, here comes round two...

Highway robbery, and just plain wrong in my opinion.... Think about it, if we could buy just a few radios on ebay at $200 a peice... have them programmed by xxxxx to work, you have just saved tak payers a ton of money that can be allocated towards anything from training, education, medical supplies ect.... /rant

 

[rescue161]

Ebay radios are best left to hobbiest, not public safety. Radios are on Ebay for a reason. They are either stolen, out-dated or hacked. 99% of all Ebay radio have been taken apart, had parts switched around or been frankenflashed by God only knows who. So the integrity of the radio is compromised. They may work great, but you never know what will fail and when. It's best to stay with a reputable dealer and buy radios that have a warranty.

 

[swilkos]

WayneH, Not that I wanted to be the "poster child who got stickied", but thank you for doing just that. I did do some searching before hand, and ended up posting to ask the question.

I do have to say to those that have commented with: "If you have to ask, you shouldn't do", I'm sorry, but that is the WRONG answer. How many of the scanners these day requires quite a bit of asking in order to configure them? How would you like to hand-program a BCD996XT without the benefit of these forums which recommend programming software? Using the analogy: "If you have to ask, you shouldn't do it", imagine the number of people that would not be able to enjoy listening.

The question was simple, is it possible to do, and a HUGE "Thank you" to those that answered, even if the answer was, "This could cause issues on many systems and is a safety issue". That's a solid answer compared to "if you have to ask".

Thanks folks! And thanks again WayneH, I hope stickying this will get folks their answers without heating up the topic every few weeks.

 

[kb0uxv]

70cutlass442, in regards to your point #2 it is very possible to avoid the radio shop for programming. Here in Minnesota nearly every county has at least one internal person that does radio programming. There are frequent changes to radios and it would be very expensive to have a shop do all of the radio updates. What I would do is have the radio system owner authorize you (or someone else interested) as the radio programmer, then get the system key from the shop. If they won’t release it contact your local Motorola sales rep and they will help get it for the system owner. Then buy the current version of CPS, some radio cables, and you are ready to go. If you sign up for Motorola Online (MOL) you can order parts directly from Motorola, download CPS, and even send radios for repair directly to Motorola. Motorola has online training for the CPS (I think its around $650, 2 hour sessions 5 days in a row) if you don’t have experience with it.

 

[chrismol1]

My 2 cents.......

Highway robbery, and just plain wrong in my opinion.... Think about it, if we could buy just a few radios on ebay at $200 a peice... have them programmed by xxxxx to work, you have just saved tak payers a ton of money that can be allocated towards anything from training, education, medical supplies ect.... /rant

When were talking mission critical public safety I wouldn't buy anything except one that came from a legitimate radio shop that has proper equipment to test align,
When you start skimping on certain things it comes back to bite you later.

70cutlass442, in regards to your point #2 it is very possible to avoid the radio shop for programming. Here in Minnesota nearly every county has at least one internal person that does radio programming. There are frequent changes to radios and it would be very expensive to have a shop do all of the radio updates. What I would do is have the radio system owner authorize you (or someone else interested) as the radio programmer, then get the system key from the shop. If they won’t release it contact your local Motorola sales rep and they will help get it for the system owner. Then buy the current version of CPS, some radio cables, and you are ready to go. If you sign up for Motorola Online (MOL) you can order parts directly from Motorola, download CPS, and even send radios for repair directly to Motorola. Motorola has online training for the CPS (I think its around $650, 2 hour sessions 5 days in a row) if you don’t have experience with it.

You have a very good point
It all comes down to knowledge, if this person fully knows what there doing then I see nothing wrong with it and uses the correct equipment
NOT some USB cable from ebay or fake old crap software

Ebay radios are best left to hobbiest, not public safety. Radios are on Ebay for a reason. They are either stolen, out-dated or hacked. 99% of all Ebay radio have been taken apart, had parts switched around or been frankenflashed by God only knows who. So the integrity of the radio is compromised. They may work great, but you never know what will fail and when. It's best to stay with a reputable dealer and buy radios that have a warranty.

Radios purchased on ebay that are going to be put into public safety should be taken to a certified technician before being put into service because you don't know this history of the radio. Parts radios are usually more high end models that buyers buy and then swap parts for. I see this more with high end models
I mean who is going to swap parts on a $100 used radio that you can buy a newer one for a few more.
As for them being stolen, only a small handful are stolen, mostly the newer ones
Most radios are surplus that were sold off from companies getting narrowband radios back about 5 years ago. Others are from those who have purchased them to use in their volunteer companies
You have to remember that most agencies are small volunteer companies that do not have lots of money or state aid to splurge on radio equipment and fancy contracts. They buy their equipment by themselves either for their own vehicles or department vehicle and then sell them when the time comes to upgrade to narrowband
I tell ya just about all the wideband radios you see on ebay are from narrowband upgrades, the radios still work and the only reason to change is the mandate. You would still see older radios in service for years to come if there was no narrowbanding
And your going to see more on ebay with narrowbanding coming up - agencies and businesses are going to sell their wideband for narrowband.

 

[70cutlass442]

Thanks for all the replies! You guys do bring up very valid points, which I will try to address... I know for a fact that we would have no problem going through an independent person or dealer who is certified by motorola to perform upgrades/repairs/programming.... The problem is our current administrator has made it clear, if the radio did not come from them, it will not go on their system. I know a motorola tech personally and he has pretty much said the same thing about key generators and what not, but as you guys stated above... mission critical comms could be at risk if there were ever an issue. We have purchased Minitor programming cradles and software, so once again... that would not be a huge issue... long story short, there are plenty of qualified motorola techs around here, but that means squat to our radio administrators.

 

[jim202]

One major point I would like to bring up here that hasn't been mentioned is that unless the transmitter and exciter are basically electrically shut off, even in the non affiliate mode, the radio can and will transmit under certain conditions.

The system administrator can have the system poll each and every radio as a regular part of the system administration book keeping. The radio system also has the ability to send out a command for all radios to affiliate. This causes those radios that haven't been keyed up to affiliate also. This is where the radio system catches all the free loaders that think they have put a radio on the system without going through the normal channels.

If the system catches any radios that shouldn't be there, the administrator will send a code to disable them. This in effect will kill the free loaders. If they have copied an ID from an active radio, that radio will also be killed. The system software is smart enough these days to keep track of just where the legal radios have been operating. If a second radio shows up with the same ID and is not within a normal driving distance from the last time it affiliated or made a transmission, that radio is considered a clone and will be shut down.

On a true P25 type system, the ability to clone a radio and get away with it are even harder. Now the radio has to affiliate when it is turned on in order to even listen to the trunking system. The ability to fool the system is so small, that it is nearly impossible not to be detected.

People who play with trunking radios to make a scanner out of them are playing with some big time legal issues if they get caught. Many of the radio system administrators make it a full time job going after cloned and non authorized radios on their system. Between the legal ramifications and the FCC fines, it isn't worth it to roll the dice trying to prevent being caught. The odds are too highly stacked against you.

Do as you see fit, but just wanted to bring out some of the details that haven't made it to this thread so far.

 

[FFPM571]

Long and short of it. Can it be done. Yes, there is a chance if done correctly. Should it be done No. There are too many legal other ramifications if caught,

Buy a scanner.

 

[radioman2001]

To 70cutlass442 , apparently you have taken by your radio shop, any agency that OWNS its radio system can get a system key from Motorola and do their programming. Personaly, if it was MY system, I sure as hell wouldn't want a radio shop to have the key. That's how radios can get programmed on the systems with the Admin knowledge. To the original OP, I too have programmed radios on my local trunk systems. You will have to do your own research, since there are no websites here in the US that will give you that information directly. Try some of the Yahoo forums, there is a large community that does all kinds of programming. Even a hack to the new APX series of radios that blow them out to all the available options. Don't give up and don't let the naysayers stop you. I feel that most of this type of info shouldn't be posted so to say in the clear, because Motorola monitors these forums and that's how they find out how to plug the holes in their software and systems. BTW there are ways to prevent auto affiliation on P-25 systems, I just am not going to say how for the reasons stated above.

 

[70cutlass442]

To 70cutlass442 , apparently you have taken by your radio shop, any agency that OWNS its radio system can get a system key from Motorola and do their programming. Personaly, if it was MY system, I sure as hell wouldn't want a radio shop to have the key. That's how radios can get programmed on the systems with the Admin knowledge. To the original OP, I too have programmed radios on my local trunk systems. You will have to do your own research, since there are no websites here in the US that will give you that information directly. Try some of the Yahoo forums, there is a large community that does all kinds of programming. Even a hack to the new APX series of radios that blow them out to all the available options. Don't give up and don't let the naysayers stop you. I feel that most of this type of info shouldn't be posted so to say in the clear, because Motorola monitors these forums and that's how they find out how to plug the holes in their software and systems. BTW there are ways to prevent auto affiliation on P-25 systems, I just am not going to say how for the reasons stated above.

Well, here is the thing. The county "owns" the system... and the shop that runs it is actually a county agency. IDK if that has anything to do with it or not.

 

[b7spectra]

As FFPM571 said - YES it can be done. Both on analog and the P25 systems. Will it get you spammed here? YES. Remember, there are a lot of SAPS (Self Appointed Police & Sheriffs) on this board and will let you know that you are a dbag if you even try to do it. Most of our SAPS went into hiding a while back when I started passing out badges to them. I'd probably get my DBA status pulled if I started passing them out again (but then again, it would be worth it!).

So in a nut shell - the answer to your question is YES.

 

[Skypilot007]

One major point I would like to bring up here that hasn't been mentioned is that unless the transmitter and exciter are basically electrically shut off, even in the non affiliate mode, the radio can and will transmit under certain conditions.

The system administrator can have the system poll each and every radio as a regular part of the system administration book keeping. The radio system also has the ability to send out a command for all radios to affiliate. This causes those radios that haven't been keyed up to affiliate also. This is where the radio system catches all the free loaders that think they have put a radio on the system without going through the normal channels.

If the system catches any radios that shouldn't be there, the administrator will send a code to disable them. This in effect will kill the free loaders. If they have copied an ID from an active radio, that radio will also be killed. The system software is smart enough these days to keep track of just where the legal radios have been operating. If a second radio shows up with the same ID and is not within a normal driving distance from the last time it affiliated or made a transmission, that radio is considered a clone and will be shut down.

On a true P25 type system, the ability to clone a radio and get away with it are even harder. Now the radio has to affiliate when it is turned on in order to even listen to the trunking system. The ability to fool the system is so small, that it is nearly impossible not to be detected.

People who play with trunking radios to make a scanner out of them are playing with some big time legal issues if they get caught. Many of the radio system administrators make it a full time job going after cloned and non authorized radios on their system. Between the legal ramifications and the FCC fines, it isn't worth it to roll the dice trying to prevent being caught. The odds are too highly stacked against you.

Do as you see fit, but just wanted to bring out some of the details that haven't made it to this thread so far.

A few things here...there is no need to go into your radio and disable your transmitter and exciter. There is a menu item call TX inhibit. It works extremely well at keeping a radio silent as it should. It puts the radio into an intrinsicly safe mode. When TX inhibit is enabled the radio will not answer to any radio poll or any type of request from the system because the operator of the radio could be killed if the radio transmits!

The rest of this post has to deal with radios that are illeagally put onto trunked radio systems. That is not what this thread is about and that is not what people are doing with these radios. This thread is about passively monitoring the system without affilation. All this talk about radio ID's and freeloaders on a system is completely pointless. Read back a few post where I cover this already. You are incorrect about the P25 systems also. They can be passively monitored without affilation also.

 

[dsheli]

As FFPM571 said - YES it can be done. Both on analog and the P25 systems. Will it get you spammed here? YES. Remember, there are a lot of SAPS (Self Appointed Police & Sheriffs) on this board and will let you know that you are a dbag if you even try to do it. Most of our SAPS went into hiding a while back when I started passing out badges to them. I'd probably get my DBA status pulled if I started passing them out again (but then again, it would be worth it!).

So in a nut shell - the answer to your question is YES.

Agreed, I hope my post did not come across as being a SAPS but instead got you going in the right direction with a few words to google haha pm me and ill be glad to help you out with any other question that you might have.

 

[kb0uxv]

As another user pointed out, I think the reason the folks at Batboards get rude and blunt about programming to monitor only is because there are more bloggers there that have an understanding of the system. There seems to be more users / monitors here, which makes sense because that is the spirit of radio reference. I am not trying to be a “saps” here, and if my opinions are coming across as such I will bow out of this discussion. To be frank, I am frustrated by people who put radios on illegally without any regard for the system or legitimate users.

I did a test this morning based on Skypilot’s recommendation. I changed a codeplug and enabled TXIN (TX Inhibit) as suggested. I sat in front of the administration console, using radio affiliation display, and turned the radio on. I watched it affiliate. I pressed TXIN, and cycled the power. The radio did not leave the system at power off and eventually timed out. I sent the radio commands and it came back as not found. The radio remained TX inhibited even when cycling power or removing the battery. After cycling power, the radio did not affiliate when turning on.

However, while the radio was in TX inhibit mode it would not receive any audio on any system talkgroup. So it appears the radio needs to be affiliated to receive audio, on a 7.x system.

I do not think there is a solution to this problem. If there was an easy answer we would not be having the problems with illegal users and the resulting talkgroup issues. The next release of Astro system software will have a new feature called radio authentication. It will employ an encryption key from a KVL with the radio ID, so it will stop this problem (although this will be a major pain in the rear for programmers and administrators). I feel if Motorola took the time and resources to develop this authentication protocol, it shows that this is a problem and that there is no easy solution.