Programing a Trunked radio for monitoring only

[ts548]

The major fact is that the system is designed solely for public safety which begs to ask why the trashmen and school busses are on it..

Could be because every other system in the COUNTRY is built like this. PS can get grants, etc to fund these radio projects.

However, since they have adopted the rule that you have to pay to be on it..and even thats a miracle..they also want you to purchase the equipment but they will own it. Doesn't seem right now does it. And there funded.

Once again, welcome to the rest of the country. There are many many many systems just like this.

Also, the entire reason I started this project up in the first place is to listen to the hospital disaster system so when there is a disaster the people that would be responding to it would have a faster response time instead of 1 or so hours. But we will just act like FEMA..Slow to respond with no satisfying results.

And that can't be done with a scanner?

 

[MTS2000des]

I smell WACKER

Could be because every other system in the COUNTRY is built like this. PS can get grants, etc to fund these radio projects.



Once again, welcome to the rest of the country. There are many many many systems just like this.



And that can't be done with a scanner?

any legit user who is a member of an accredited agency or organization will have no problem getting authorized to be on whatever radio systems they require for mutual aid, if they are part of the response efforts in the area in question. Is there paperwork involved and cost? yes, but any legitimate user will have no issue following the agencies' procedure for getting access. Our hospital system uses our governments' Astro 25 DTRS for daily operations and mutual aid. We pay a premium to be on it. The county authorized it, and it was all done through proper channels. The other hospital system in this county also joined said DTRS. These hospitals have a legitimate need and thus, why the local government authorizes such use.

anything else sounds like whacker dribble about wanting a "police" radio and there is no way around it. If you bootleg on a government radio system, you are asking for trouble, and you aren't part of the response effort, you are part of the problem.

buy a scanner. end of story.

 

[kb0uxv]

Oh and also just to inform everyone..I have abandoned the project. If they want help when they need it, they can figure it out. I found a scanner thats to my liking and Im going to go that route. Now if them and the naw-sayers here could just put the energy that has been put into this topic into finding illegals and deporting them we would be a free country.

You are re-directing. Please don't take comments here personally...I think all of the system admins who have taken the time to comment here have my mentality - I would rather take the time to explain the system impacts rather than take the time to locate an illegal user. And the later court time for prosecution if it goes that way. And the expenses involved.

It takes much more time and effort than typing a post here.

Triptolemus is probably right, I think this discussion has begun to go in circles.

 

[RodStrong]

I will say that Kenwood P25 programming platform is WAAAY MORE secure than Motorola is.......Trust me when I say you will NEVER have a Kenwood P25 sub unit illegally programmed on your system!

Curious to know why. I am familiar with both by the way.

 

[wa1emt]

So according to this logic, if the radio was set to not affiliate or someway the radio could not transmit then it is totally legal then since if you cant transmit, you cant affiliate with the system hence your not trying to gain access...
hmmmmmm.
guess I dont have to worry about getting into trouble..

Well according to him, his unauthorized programming of trunking radios cost him a career, a bunch of money, his family, etc:

http://forums.radioreference.com/ge...-anyone-can-program-my-radios.html#post729378

In our state, (GA) it is a computer trespass crime, not just a radio (FCC) issue. Everytime the radio powers up, changes talkgroups, or is polled, it affiliates. Affiliation attempts are viewed as computer access (hacking) attempts. Ask any jury when a modern Astro 25 zone controller is brought in and explained how it works (a database, security keys, passwords, etc) and it all spells out CONVICTION.

To my knowledge, no on was ever convicted of a crime for merely programming a SCANNER. Do the math. Putting radios on someone else's network without their permission and in a covert manner is a recipe for disaster.

The problem is many well meaning hobbyists who "just want to listen" have little knowledge of how these systems work, and how improper programming of subscriber radios, legit ID's or not, can create stability problems systemwide. Cloning radios can put the legit user in jeopardy, especially if the bootleg radio causes a flag in site lens and is disabled, if the legit user doesn't know his/her radio is also disabled. Imagine what could happen if a firefighter or PD officer's radio goes dead at the WORST time, all because someone wanted to play. Would you want that on your conscience?

Motorola (and other vendors) give classes on use of their tools for a reason. I just completed a course for Kenwood P25 programming, and I can tell you much goes on the system side that the wrong data in the wrong place CAN create problems. (I will say that Kenwood P25 programming platform is WAAAY MORE secure than Motorola is, and this is a GOOD THING for those with systems. Trust me when I say you will NEVER have a Kenwood P25 sub unit illegally programmed on your system!)

Get a scanner, program all you want. Listen to what you want. And don't fear any knocks on the door!

 

[wa1emt]

Oh I am not redirecting...Making a statement. And your right, this discussion went in circles becuse I asked a question that has been asked before and because I am not in the "in-crowd" I got jumped on and told to go away.
Seems like this forum must be in the south cause its got good-ole boy mentality written all over it.
You explained the system impact's, which by the way, I already knew and was trying to avoid so that it WOULD NOT be an issue. However, you all descended on me like I was cancer instead of trying to help.
If someone is going to do something, wouldn't it be easier to explain to them the best way to go about it instead of trying to scare them with legal splatter-babble and "you'll get someone killed" B.S. Oh I am really scared folks. For radio police you sure are selective who you go after and who you dont.

You are re-directing. Please don't take comments here personally...I think all of the system admins who have taken the time to comment here have my mentality - I would rather take the time to explain the system impacts rather than take the time to locate an illegal user. And the later court time for prosecution if it goes that way. And the expenses involved.

It takes much more time and effort than typing a post here.

Triptolemus is probably right, I think this discussion has begun to go in circles.

 

[wa1emt]

Just found this very thread on this very forum...and look..he didnt get his butt jumped all over...no one told him he would kill someone with his radio...
like I said...radio police and the good ole boy mentality..and they both suck.

http://forums.radioreference.com/texas-radio-discussion-forum/211035-problem-local-so.html

and another
http://forums.radioreference.com/te...795-houston-harris-county-apco-25-system.html

 

[rescue161]

Just found this very thread on this very forum...and look..he didnt get his butt jumped all over...no one told him he would kill someone with his radio...
like I said...radio police and the good ole boy mentality..and they both suck.

http://forums.radioreference.com/texas-radio-discussion-forum/211035-problem-local-so.html

Well, based on the thread that you linked, the OP had an HT1000, which is a conventional only radio, not trunked, so your point is without merit.

 

[wa1emt]

so if its conventional its ok...wow...and it has a ton of merit to the point im bringing up...

Well, based on the thread that you linked, the OP had an HT1000, which is a conventional only radio, not trunked, so your point is without merit.

 

[rescue161]

so if its conventional its ok...wow...and it has a ton of merit to the point im bringing up...

Look, using a conventional radio that is set to RX Only is a LOT different than programming a trunking system.

Conventional:
1) Set radio to receive-only and the radio will never ever transmit, ever.

Trunking:
1) Hack into system using an illegal system key.
2) Set radio to not affiliate to system.
3) System forces radio to affiliate during an audit.

A trunking radio is not the same as a conventional radio. With a trunking system, you are accessing a computer system. All of this hacking will soon be over due to iButton hardware system key implementation.

So, do what you want to, because you're going to anyway.

 

[Skypilot007]

Wow...You are certifiable.

This thread should be closed...there is nothing of any value to be added.

This thread should be left alone so people can read it and add to it. Because there is always more to discover and share.

All this discussion about affilation is hogwash! If one does their homework on this subject and programs their radio accordingly their radio will never even try to affilate. Its already been proven multiple times and documented here and on batboard. Good luck everyone and have fun!

 

[kb0uxv]

wa1emt - in your second linked post I think that member "RodStrong" post #4 had an excellent point about why a scanner is better. And he did mention the affiliation issues. But not as bluntly as others have here.

Skypilot has a point. I just learned of something new from another tech.

The problem with before mentioned non-affiliation monitoring method is that it requires the system key to do it, which at least in my state is still a problem. As others have mentioned here, that method requires advanced knowledge and if not done exactly can cause problems by affiliating.

I just learned of a simple way to do it without a system key, and no affiliation. Happy to pass it on because it will not harm the system. Program only the voice channels for the site you want into channel slots (dont put the control channel in, its not needed). Point them to a conventional personality set for RX ONLY, mixed mode or ASTRO only, and the squelch type as digital CSQ. Be sure to select modulator CQPSK if the system is simulcast. That modulator works for both types so if you don't know use that one.

Now put all of those channels into a scan list, with a low monitor hold time. It will track voice calls and will work well on a smaller system. The downfall is you will get all traffic (like the wildcard scan on a scanner) and you will not be able to track talkgroups, so it will not work well on a busy system. The radio will hold on encrypted channels but will not unmute. Also this method has some value to techs, using two radios - one on the system and the other set up in the above way - you can see channel assignments in the field.

As wa1emt's linked post points out, if an official sees you have a radio that looks like his and it is broadcasting system audio you should be prepared to be confronted and asked questions.

Another point not mentioned before - the Motorola 2500 portables are limited to 10 talkgroups per scan list. I would think that, in combination with having to program only with a PC, and attention from authorities, would drive people to scanners.

 

[b7spectra]

Think about "tapping" into the HC DTRS. The airwaves that they operate on are open for anyone to monitor, regardless if it's encrypted or not (you can still monitor a encrypted system, you just can't understand it). Now, think about this. You have a wireless router at your house and you have it encrypted with a "syskey" so no one else can access it. I sit outside of your house with some "software" and I manage to hack into your router and I can now access the internet that YOU are paying for. I can also go in and look at all your files on your computer, I can send printouts to your printer, I can change your router so you can't use it anymore. I can also download child porn from your router. When the feds get a whiff of it, they will track the IP address and come knocking on YOUR door, probably just knock it down, put you on the floor at gun point, take all of your computers, router, printer, etc., and take you to jail. All because I accessed YOUR system.

Next.

 

[SCPD]

This thread should be left alone so people can read it and add to it. Because there is always more to discover and share.

All this discussion about affilation is hogwash! If one does their homework on this subject and programs their radio accordingly their radio will never even try to affilate. Its already been proven multiple times and documented here and on batboard. Good luck everyone and have fun!

Batboard?? So link to the relevant resource rather than post ambiguous pie-in-the-sky observations... What? Don't want to post that on RR, pm it then.... Whatever.

No one will add to this on RR...for obvious reasons.

I would love to program ALCO trs on an mts2000 I own... Care to tell me how? Tell the OP how too. Otherwise, stfu, it doesn't belong here and you know it. Share?? Please... Give me a break.







. . . Crickets . . .

 

[B_Mitchell]

is there a difference between the sytem ID and system key ?
my understanding is that the "system key" is supposed to keep
unauthorized radios from accessing the trunked system ?

 

[mancow]

system ID - unique ID code of the SYSTEM, as in (data in the control channel)

system key - data string imported in to programming software to "unlock" fields for editing

 

[n5ims]

is there a difference between the sytem ID and system key ?
my understanding is that the "system key" is supposed to keep
unauthorized radios from accessing the trunked system ?

Yes.

A system ID is simply an ID (generally 4 hex digits) that identifies a Motorola trunked radio system. This number is assigned by Motorola to the system, to uniquely identify that system. Other than that, there's nothing really special to this number, it's simply one greater than the ID issued prior to and one less than the ID issued after it.

A system key is an encrypted file that the Motorola RSS or CPS software reads to allow changes to radios to allow them to work on the associated trunked radio system. The system key for one system is critically different from another system. Although much of the information is the same, the file can only be used on a single trunked radio system. If a radio must be programmed for multiple systems (as may happen for mutual aid or to allow an officer to switch channels to a nearby city's system), the system key for each system must be available to the RSS or CPS software or no changes to the missing system key's system will be allowed.

 

[b7spectra]

In real laymans terms, the syskey is the password to access the TRS system.

 

[WayneH]

Since this thread is a Sticky and to serve as an informative source I do not want any more bickering or side-discussion. The more pages this thread grows the less patience people have for reading it when they first find it. Please take that in to consideration so I do not have to groom the thread and waste my time because a small few are ignoring me.

 

[jimboyle]

If you need a radio someone will issue you one !