PSR-500 and PSR-600 Pre Release

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windigofer

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Quint6 said:
will the 500/600 have LTR Passport , currently no scanner on market covers that system

Let's just say I will be extremely pleasantly surprised if LTR Passport is in fact included :3

For those curious, LTR Passport and EDACS ProVoice (and probably AEGIS and definitely MA/Com OpenSky) are what we like to call "patent encumbered" trunking formats. Whilst LTR Passport *has* been reverse-engineered by trunking program makers, modern laws require scanner manufacturers to pay licensing fees to trunking system manufacturers to include these formats (Motorola analogue systems were largely "grandfathered" in as laws were not so strict regarding reverse engineering when the first Trunktracker radios came out). Laws have gotten much stricter in regards to reverse engineering (especially anything involving a digital format including most trunktracking systems) so GRE would not only have to worry about laws covering reverse engineering but stuff like the DMCA, etc.

(The DMCA, as an aside, is also why you will probably not see an iDEN or EDACS ProVoice capable scanner anytime soon, if ever--both of those use digital formats for encryption, and the DMCA pretty much has a blanket ban on any sort of decryption of a digital format save by licensing or for research (and seeing as researchers HAVE been charged under the DMCA for things like revealing security flaws in Adobe Acrobat re its protection scheme and releasing a proof-of-concept "unprotector" for Acrobat PDF files, the "research exemption" is pretty useless in practice).)

LTR Passport, whilst not digitally encoded (a la AEGIS) and whilst having been cracked by at least two programs in the wild, still has the issue of patent encumbrance (specifically by EFJ, the makers of the LTR format, and Trident, the major makers of LTR Passport systems). The two known programs (an unreleased Windows program and ltrunk) did this in a "clean room" setup (by writing their own program without access to LTR code) and GRE would essentially have to do a "clean room" method of decoding LTR Passport's trunking format.

So far, Trident (the makers of LTR Passport systems) have not been at all willing to give licenses to include these formats at any price (in fact, the unmonitorability of LTR Passport by conventional scanners is one of the major selling points used) There supposedly is a project by GRE to make a Passport-compatible scanner (as it is a very easy format to implement) as noted at http://www.radioreference.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62538 (and later denied by another poster)--the problem GRE would have is in either doing a clean-room implementation (enough that there wouldn't be a problem with things like intellectual property laws, possible DMCA provisions, etc.) or getting licensing (which...well...the New Jersey Devils will be bought by Mephistopheles and moved to a hockey arena in downtown Hell before that happens, most likely).
 
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rdale

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Quint6 said:
will the 500/600 have LTR Passport

Negative. Again I humbly note that people have gone to great lengths to put all the info in the Wiki. Look at the top of your page, click it, then you'll find a section for GRE scanners. There will be a list of features on this any all the new scanners they are proposing.
 

windigofer

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rdale said:
Negative. Again I humbly note that people have gone to great lengths to put all the info in the Wiki. Look at the top of your page, click it, then you'll find a section for GRE scanners. There will be a list of features on this any all the new scanners they are proposing.

Perhaps it may be time to put a sticky link to the wiki in the GRE Scanners forum in general (that way when people come in, they can see the link to the wiki, thus saving questions).

I myself doubted they'd have LTR Passport because of the licensing issues (it's pretty much the same reason we don't have iDEN-capable or ProVoice-capable scanners--namely, the companies that own the patents frankly are not willing at all to grant licenses to scanner manufacturers, unlike the consortium managing the APCO-25 standard). Thanks to the DMCA, there is also not a good *legal* way for a scanner manufacturer to reverse-engineer the standard (unlike in the days when the first TrunkTracker scanners came out, when reverse engineering was *not* considered illegal as long as you did it in a clean room environment--this is, in part, why Uniden and GRE scanners do things subtly different as far as Motorola trunking and why the PSR-500/600 will be the first non-Uniden scanner to actually include I-Calls).
 

WayneH

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windigofer said:
LTR Passport, whilst not digitally encoded (a la AEGIS) and whilst having been cracked by at least two programs in the wild, still has the issue of patent encumbrance (specifically by EFJ, the makers of the LTR format, and Trident, the major makers of LTR Passport systems).
No one yet has been able to locate a patent for PassPort trunking. I'm no lawyer so I'm not exactly sure what would stop someone from using it in a passive application but I believe it's an intellectual rights thing. The patents for standard LTR held by EF Johnson are of no hindrance either, and have no relation. For MultiNet there does exist multiple patents.

This is straying off unto its own topic. If we want to discuss it further we should move off to the LTR forum.
 

Quint6

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where to buy GRE scanners

What dealers and stores are going to sell the GRE 500/600 etc. scanners
 

DaveIN

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I'm sure all the major players will be selling them such as Grove, Scannermaster, Scanners Unlimited, HRO, Universal Radio, etc. It will be interesting to see if Radio Shack picks them up. Then I wonder if it will be web only and at MSRP like the Uniden models? :)
 

safetyobc

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How about hold times? Are they adjustable?

I would love to see the conventional frequencies and TGIDs able to be held on for more than 2 seconds after the tranmission ends. I like holding for 5 seconds on some of my TGIDs and frequencies.
 

garys

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Disregard. I see someone gave a better explanation in an earlier post.

Gary
 
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Psr 500?

Will it Trunk Track the following: MOTO, MOTO Multi-Site, EDACS, EDACS Multi-Site, and LTR?
Will it Trunk Track 150 - 160, 380 - 400, 406 - 420, 420 - 430, 500, 700, 800, 900?
Does it have 216 - 400 for Militay Aviation?

In other words, how close is it to the Uniden BCD996T?

I really do NOT care if it does or does NOT do GPS.

How many differernt colours, for the screen, can one choose? I always thought that Blue or Green looks really cool man.
 

windigofer

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JerryNone said:
Will it Trunk Track the following: MOTO, MOTO Multi-Site, EDACS, EDACS Multi-Site, and LTR?

Yes. In fact, pretty much the only formats that the PSR-500 will *not* trunk-track are as follows:

1) MPT-1327 based systems (there really is not a huge demand for MPT-based trunktracking here in the US, as it is very uncommon here; if GRE sells localised versions for the European and Australian markets, we may soon see a quadruple trunk-track radio there as MPT is a lot more common across the pond)
2) AEGIS (standard is quite new, may have similar issues to LTR Passport and EDACS ProVoice as to implementation in a scanner)
3) EDACS ProVoice (patent encumbered, digital trunking so "clean room" decoding falls under DMCA regs here in the US, MA/Com unwilling to license to scanner manufacturers)
4) LTR Passport and LTR Multinet (LTR Multinet patent encumbered, LTR Passport falls under possible licensing (not patent) terms, companies manufacturing radios unwilling to license to scanner manufacturers; as minor aside, LTR Passport may be most likely to end up in a scanner as protocol has been reverse engineered by hobbyists)
5) iDEN (used in some Nextel SMR systems, Nextel unwilling to license, may be in practice impossible to implement because of DMCA provisions and use in Nextel cellular "walkie-talkie" systems)

And in regards to those five, it's very unlikely we'll *ever* see any of those in US scanners (with the possible exceptions of MPT-1327 and LTR Passport, and the latter only if a company can successfully work around intellectual-property issues that have so far prevented an LTR Passport capable scanner from coming to market). In fact, with three of those (EDACS ProVoice, AEGIS, and iDEN) it may legally be impossible for scanner manufacturers to even research how to incorporate them in a "clean room" environment (the DMCA prohibits almost all reverse engineering of a digital format if it is advertised as a security measure; all three formats are explicitly sold to agencies as unmonitorable systems).

Incidentially, the PSR-500 also solves a major shortcoming of GRE trunktracking radios--specifically, it does include I-Calls as monitorable.

Will it Trunk Track 150 - 160, 380 - 400, 406 - 420, 420 - 430, 500, 700, 800, 900?

Per all reports, it should trunk-track these frequencies, at least from UHF on up (I'm not 100% sure on VHF trunking, so I'm not going to claim it can do that, but if need be it can have that capability added via a CPU firmware upgrade just like the '996)

Does it have 216 - 400 for Militay Aviation?

Yes, the thing does milair. :3 (As it is, milair and the combo of APCO-25 and LTR was what attracted this to me. :3)

In other words, how close is it to the Uniden BCD996T?

Quite comparable in features, with a few additional features that are not included in the '996:

a) NAC decoding--NAC is the equivalent to PL and DPL decoding for APCO-25 capable systems. (To my knowledge, the PSR-500 is the first scanner on the market to include this; this is quite handy in monitoring conventional (non-trunked) APCO-25 systems such as exist in Kentucky.)

b) Colour-coding of an alert LED based on monitored agency/group (i.e. you can group all police agencies in a trunktracking group to alert with a blue LED when they broadcast).

c) Ability to customise service searches (this is a feature that *was* in the old Pro-92/Pro-2067 but which has been dearly missed since then)

d) Increased channels and talkgroups (effectively, if V-Scanner banks are included, the PSR-500 is effectively a 36,000 channel scanner with capacity of up to 15,000 talkgroups per system).

e) Approximately $25-50 or more cheaper :3

f) The ability to actively trunk-track a system if its control channel is found in a search (I'm not sure the '996 can do this without assistance of an outside PC yet--if so, feel free to correct me on this)

(I can't legitimately count the AGC control of the '996 against it, because it seems like Uniden finally took a clue out of GRE's book and allowed automatic adjustment; a lot of people seem to prefer how the GRE radios sound versus Unidens, though, so your mileage may vary. This is what we call a Subjective Thing. :D)

Things that *have* been fixed in comparison with older GRE kit:

a) I-Calls (finally!)
b) Ability to customise fire/utils/etc. banks (there was a feature to lock out frequencies in these banks, but the Pro-92/Pro-2067 allowed one to replace these search banks with one's own search ranges and it appears the PSR-500 will also allow multiple customised search ranges)
c) Computer control is now a reality (not just computer control, but actively using the scanner and appropriate computer software to "map out" a system without the use of a discriminator; we had a taste of this with PRO96COM and the PSR-500 expands this to pretty much all the different trunking systems one can listen to with this radio).
d) Allowing CPU as well as DSP firmware upgrades. (This will be good when rebanding finally hits.)
e) Yes, GRE, we really *do* want LTR and APCO-25 in the same radio. Some areas (cough cough ahem Louisville cough ahem) actually have as their primary trunking systems Motorola and LTR and agencies on *conventional, non-trunked* APCO-25 (cough cough ahem KYSP cough ahem) and big APCO-25 systems listenable or in the works (cough cough SAFE-T cough cough MetroSafe cough ahem).

Things Uniden seems to have learned from GRE with the '996:

a) AGC for digital trunking systems not requiring fine tuning with a knob is a Good Thing.
b) V-Scanner-like ability is also good (the "memory backup" in the '996 sounds suspiciously similar to how V-Scanners have worked with the Pro-96).

I really do NOT care if it does or does NOT do GPS.

This is a Good Thing, then. :3 (Pretty much the only features that the '996 does have that the PSR-500 doesn't are fire code tones (which in my experience aren't used so much on trunking systems anyways--mostly conventional fire frequencies; not a huge deal in my case because conventional fire frequencies that *use* fire tone codes will likely be going away in my area within the next 2-4 years anyways), the ability to transmit frequencies "over the air" to other scanners (I like having the V-Scanners and/or using the USB cable myself, I can hook up a 1/8" stereo cable if someone needs to clone off mine) and the ability to use it with a GPS (no, the GPS is not included; I presume it either uses Bluetooth or a serial cable to talk with GPS devices).)

How many differernt colours, for the screen, can one choose? I always thought that Blue or Green looks really cool man.

As I understood it (and I could well be mistaken here--those of you who've been fortunate enough to play with the radio, let me know), the PSR-500 doesn't change screen colours but rather has an 8-colour LED that flashes when it picks up frequencies from a certain user or group. (So the answer to this is: a) One (the one it ships with), b) the LED is more of the blinkenlights variety of LED, and c) you can set up to eight colours of distinct blinkenlights.)

(Again, those of you who've played with this--if it changes screen colour rather than operates as a multicoloured blinkenlight, let me know and feel free to correct this.)

Of course, a lot of this is also detailed in the Wiki, too :3
 

kikito

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windigofer said:
Per all reports, it should trunk-track these frequencies, at least from UHF on up (I'm not 100% sure on VHF trunking, so I'm not going to claim it can do that, but if need be it can have that capability added via a CPU firmware upgrade just like the '996)
The current GRE scanners already do VHF trunking (3600 & 9600), so I'm sure the new ones should work also.
 

kikito

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windigofer said:
f) The ability to actively trunk-track a system if its control channel is found in a search (I'm not sure the '996 can do this without assistance of an outside PC yet--if so, feel free to correct me on this)

Yes, the BCD396T and 996T already does that.
 

windigofer

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kikito said:
The current GRE scanners already do VHF trunking (3600 & 9600), so I'm sure the new ones should work also.

All good--thanks for the confirmation (I *thought* they did, but wasn't quite sure--as it is, there are no non-federal trunks using VHF locally (and I don't think that we even have federal VHF trunked systems), so I couldn't speak from my own experience on that).

Also, thanks for confirming re the '996's own "trunking on scanner search" capabilities (again, don't have one myself so couldn't say for sure).
 

safetyobc

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PLEASE, PLEASE GRE give us a belt clip that is functional in everyday life. Those used on the Pro-97 and Pro-96's aren't that great.
 

rescue161

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I hate belt clips. I'd rather not have one at all. All they do is make the scanner feel "fatter".

Handheld = Hold in hand, not wear on belt... lol
 

windigofer

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safetyobc said:
PLEASE, PLEASE GRE give us a belt clip that is functional in everyday life. Those used on the Pro-97 and Pro-96's aren't that great.

That *would* be nice, agreed (failing that, though, there's always the dedicated leather holster route; of course, that can get more expensive if you're not a leathersmithing geek).

(A third option, should the clip provided with radio prove to be insufficient, is hitting somewhere like http://www.theclip.com and getting a radio clip :3)

And yes, for the record, I do agree that the default clips for the Pro-96 are lacking :3 (And yes, I pretty much went the "alternate clip" route.)
 

safetyobc

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Actually, I don't wear belts. But a good belt clip is handy for hanging the scanner on lots of stuff. My BCD396T for example, I can hang on my sun visor, on my scanner stand made by our very own scannerstandman, my pocket on my jeans, etc.

But with a beltclip like that used on many Uniden, GRE, Icom, etc. They are simply too stiff to actually use on other things.
 

bc780l

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Agreed--no belt clips, in my opinion--rather provide (or make optional) a QUALITY carry case with QUALITY clip mechanism. I've worn enough equipment on belts over the years that get battered to death. A quality, heavy duty case will protect the radio. I work hard enough for the $$ to buy the radio--therefore, protect it. A nice, sleek, slim piece of technology will get bashed if worn on the belt long enough. Bash the case, not the radio. Further, if it's truely a nice, sleek, slim radio, it'll fit well into some pockets that it wouldn't if otherwise equipped with a large clip mount (I'd be much happier, for example, if my 396 didn't have that mount on it!).
 
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