Saratoga County TRS Official Thread

[Thunderknight]

If that is true, then what is the CC for each tower?

If it is simulcast, then each tower in the same simulcast zone/cell has the same CC. Given the fact that only one neighbor is being announced on the CC backs up my earlier assumption this is (currently) a two zone/cell simulcast system. The FCC licenses back this up, as I explained earlier.

One "tower ID" can represent multiple physical RF sites if it simulcasts as one cell.

Look at Colonie. That is two physical sites with one CC, because it is simulcast. That is how a simulcast trunked system works. Theirs is one cell, Saratoga appears to be multiple cells.

 

[philb623]

Per the Office of Emergency Services fire will go live on the 800 system on Monday 7/18/2011 at 8am

 

[Warthog1]

There ya go ! All services will be on the 800 system then. Thank you for the update.
Man....I think I have lots of UID's now ! Also getting a good breakdown of talkgroups.

 

[wkredick]

As for the Waterford testing, does anyone know for certain whether they were testing on the trunked system or on the simplex tactical channels?

Testing by the Fire Dept in Waterford was on TAC-3-9 (Repeated Digital Trunked) and some on GRND 10-12
(simplex 800 ). Mostly it was on TAC7-TAC9. The only location not really tested for coverage was Maximum Security Products off Hudson River Rd and Evonics facility.Even Kelts Grove was loud and clear and on 46mhz that spot was iffy at best.
Not sure where Northside FB Peck Hose did their testing
Wish I could help you with CC breakdowns...still learning scanner stuff here myself
The cut over for Fire Com from 46mhz to new 800 system is 8am July 18th..

 

[Warthog1]

I have logged 3 EMS and 11 Fire units from Waterford so far.

 

[DaveNF2G]

If it is simulcast, then each tower in the same simulcast zone/cell has the same CC. Given the fact that only one neighbor is being announced on the CC backs up my earlier assumption this is (currently) a two zone/cell simulcast system. The FCC licenses back this up, as I explained earlier.

One "tower ID" can represent multiple physical RF sites if it simulcasts as one cell.

Look at Colonie. That is two physical sites with one CC, because it is simulcast. That is how a simulcast trunked system works. Theirs is one cell, Saratoga appears to be multiple cells.

I understand all of that. What I cannot figure out is why I am hearing CC signals on only one frequency, with a signal strength that varies between S0 and S3. This has been what I received here at home ever since the first tower went on the air. Nothing has changed as of moments ago when I checked again using 2 different receivers.

 

[KA1RBI]

What I cannot figure out is why I am hearing CC signals on only one frequency, with a signal strength that varies between S0 and S3.

The CC is only on one frequency. All towers broadcast the same signal simultaneously on the same frequency. When voice channel(s) are actively transmitting, the same is true.

Phase differences between the several towers are controlled by system design and as long as you're inside the designed system coverage radius the phase differences are "guaranteed" to be below the applicable error thresholds. If you venture outside the zone three cases exist:
1) far enough out, you have total loss of signal
2) in range of a single tower, there is no simulcast distortion
3) in range of >1 tower, the possibility of partial or full cancellation exists (at random)

You should not expect the S meter (i.e., the receiver AGC line level) to display anything meaningful. There are at least two reasons. First, the several stations at the same time effect renders any quantitative interpretation of the result sort of ... redundant. Second, the waveform itself is not even "FM" (it contains distinct "AM" components). It's perfectly reasonable to get swings on the AGC line corresponding to 10-20 dB (minimum) variations in RSS over very short time periods (< 1 sec).

Also it's not possible to receive this stuff properly using FM demodulation. I don't know but I've been told that all scanner mfgr's today derive the digital baseband by tapping the FM discriminator after demodulation. While this works as designed for C4FM, it's inherently not suited for "CQPSK" in the presence of simulcast. The FM demodulation action effectively mangles the signal (irrevocably).

The solution is straightforward - tap the IF. Any good old 1980's scanner (PRO 2006) has basic RF performance (intermod etc.) FAR superior to today's models. Direct tap the IF of one of these and you get a receiver with superior performance due to
- improved RF-side (better intermod and spurious rejection)
- improved digital-side (reduction of troubles caused by simulcast)

Well I've hijacked the thread long enough? For more info you might check out my LSM gallery
LSM Gallery

73

Max

 

[medic128]

I live in Southern Saratoga and have been listening to the P-25 system for months. I have a Uniden BCD396T and it seems to work well, most of the time. I don't know if it's a tower issue or a talk group issue but most of the time the transmissions are loud and clear. Sometimes the transmissions are choppy sounding, kind of sounds like cable TV when the picture pixelats and the audio breaks up.

 

[Warthog1]

Same here on the northern end of Fulton county. I'm using a PSR-600 & Unitrunker to log the entire system, and a PRO-2096 to monitor the Fraker Mtn (and later Lakeside) sites. I have a 996T with talkgroups 1111, 1112, 2111, 111, 511 &3111 locked out to monitor new TG's.

 

[medic128]

FIRE coming online tomorrow

I received this e-mail from EMS Coordinator Mike McEvoy yesterday:

"This Monday, July 18th at 08:00 am, Fire will begin using the 800 radio system. Because they do not yet have mobile radios installed, their use will begin with portables and they'll continue to use VHF low-band for some of their communications. With this, you will be advised of the TAC group that fire has been assigned when responding to calls with them (or when they are responding on an EMS assist)."


Fred

 

[Thunderknight]

Any new talkgroups now that fire is in the system?

 

[Warthog1]

Oh yes ! I'm trying to identify them. I have managed to identify about 20 out of 43 or 44 talkgroups.

 

[Thunderknight]

Oh yes ! I'm trying to identify them. I have managed to identify about 20 out of 43 or 44 talkgroups.

Well don't keep us in suspense, what are they?

 

[Warthog1]

I will post them when I'm 100% certain of the use. I will not tolerate some scanner wizard telling me that I'm wrong, after doing all of the work. If you want to know anything specific, please email me direct and I will be glad to attempt to fill in the spaces. warthog1@citlink.net

 

[Ranger911]

Fire Comm (111), Tac-6 (116), Tac 9 (119)

 

[Warthog1]

112 Fire Comm 2
113 TAC 3
114 TAC 4
115 TAC 5
116 TAC 6
117 TAC 7
118 TAC 8
119 TAC 9
211 TAC 11
212 TAC 12
213 TAC 13
1134 TAC 14
1135 TAC 15
3214 TAC 24
4111 C-TAC
4112 A-TAC

There are more

 

[wkredick]

Saratoga Springs will be TAC-52
Waterford is TAC-64
Mechanicville will be TAC-39
Waterford is actively using TAC-64, the others AFAIK have not been activated yet

 

[Warthog1]

I have had lots of log-ins on TAC-64...mostly looks like Waterford FD & EMS units
If TG 6039 will indeed be TAC 39, I have logged 760910, 760980, 760960, 760940, 721900, and today 760900. on TG 6056, only 2 units 721900 & 13 (just 13).

Thanks for the update.

 

[truckie36]

Is there anything special that needs to be done so that Saratoga county 800mhz doesn't sound like crap?
I purchased a PSR-600 to upgrade my RR feed and it doesn't sound the best. I've tried different antennas (including roof mounted 30') and it didn't make any difference. If i put in Albany City's 800mhz system it sounds better even with it being a little scratchy considering the distance and half the signal strength of Saratoga. Oddly enough on Saratoga some of the clearest transmissions originated from portables in the field and some of the most garbled are from the communications center.

Here is the feed, Saratoga is on the Left:

Washington, Warren and Saratoga Counties Fire and EMS Live Scanner Audio Feed

 

[Thunderknight]

Is there anything special that needs to be done so that Saratoga county 800mhz doesn't sound like crap?
I purchased a PSR-600 to upgrade my RR feed and it doesn't sound the best. I've tried different antennas (including roof mounted 30') and it didn't make any difference. If i put in Albany City's 800mhz system it sounds better even with it being a little scratchy considering the distance and half the signal strength of Saratoga. Oddly enough on Saratoga some of the clearest transmissions originated from portables in the field and some of the most garbled are from the communications center.

Here is the feed, Saratoga is on the Left:

Washington, Warren and Saratoga Counties Fire and EMS Live Scanner Audio Feed

With simulcast systems, more signal isn't always best. It can make the simulcast issues with scanners worse (they do a bad job with LSM simulcast). Try less antenna, down to the duckie or a paperclip. Or a directional antenna aimed at one of the sites.You want dominant signal from one site only, not several.