Scanners Going away?

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AggieCon

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Ken,

No doubt, people do crack it. No doubt, anyone with evil intentions could crack it. More easily, an employee in the know shares the key. The only thing protecting encryption is that it is illegal to monitor. It's kind of like speed limits, nothing physically keeps your car from going over it, the law just enforces it. How does that work out in reality?

Our government is for and by the people. I know everything is perverted now, but a public servant should not have any additional power (i.e. special rights given by law deprived to the common man). He should humbly serve others. Everything the government does is supposed to be public, and it should be that way.

Encryption providing security is a myth and it is naive.

Your question, the disadvantages are as follows:

  • Expensive
  • More complicated, introduces problems, can cause legitimate end users to be unable to communicate (and Murphy's Law dictates this will occur at the time when they need help the worst)
  • Excludes interoperability, which is the purported justification for buying these new systems in the first place
  • Empowers unprofessional behavior
  • Puts the safety of the public at risk
  • Causes people to question departments, perhaps even encouraging reforms or defunding of the department
  • And many move
See my previous post in this thread regarding how each of us should respond to this.
 

N1KK

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Disavantages

What I was getting at when I said disadvantages was for the Police.
Why would they not want to go Encrypted 24/7 ? I don't think there is any down side
encryption.

Laws are funny. What was perfectly legal since the begining of police being on the radio
all of a sudden becomes illegal to listen to just because a bunch of policticans make it that way.

It won't stop the bad guy just the legit guy and at the same time kill a industry thats been around
for a long time. As the technology gets cheaper more and more will jump on board. All communications
will just be like a cell phone until its cracked. Then all those hobbies using SDR dongles or old
police scanners will run the cracked software and have a ball.

Ken


Ken,

No doubt, people do crack it. No doubt, anyone with evil intentions could crack it. More easily, an employee in the know shares the key. The only thing protecting encryption is that it is illegal to monitor. It's kind of like speed limits, nothing physically keeps your car from going over it, the law just enforces it. How does that work out in reality?

Our government is for and by the people. I know everything is perverted now, but a public servant should not have any additional power (i.e. special rights given by law deprived to the common man). He should humbly serve others. Everything the government does is supposed to be public, and it should be that way.

Encryption providing security is a myth and it is naive.

Your question, the disadvantages are as follows:

  • Expensive
  • More complicated, introduces problems, can cause legitimate end users to be unable to communicate (and Murphy's Law dictates this will occur at the time when they need help the worst)
  • Excludes interoperability, which is the purported justification for buying these new systems in the first place
  • Empowers unprofessional behavior
  • Puts the safety of the public at risk
  • Causes people to question departments, perhaps even encouraging reforms or defunding of the department
  • And many move
See my previous post in this thread regarding how each of us should respond to this.
 

AggieCon

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Am I missing something? I provided a solid list of disadvantages faced by police departments. My list of disadvantages to society would be 10 pages long.

The disadvantages are as follows:

  • Expensive
  • More complicated, introduces problems, can cause legitimate end users to be unable to communicate (and Murphy's Law dictates this will occur at the time when they need help the worst)
  • Excludes interoperability, which is the purported justification for buying these new systems in the first place
  • Empowers unprofessional behavior
  • Puts the safety of the public at risk
  • Causes people to question departments, perhaps even encouraging reforms or defunding of the department
  • And many move
 

ecps92

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Expensive ? Nope
Excludes Interop? Nope - agencies can share a Common Code for Interop if needed and the NIFOG's listed Interops are either Analog or P25/CLR not ENC and Radios can contain multiple Encryption Codes
Puts the Safety of the Public at Risk ? Nope, I would say 95% of the public would not know a Police Scanner if it hit them.


Am I missing something? I provided a solid list of disadvantages faced by police departments. My list of disadvantages to society would be 10 pages long.

The disadvantages are as follows:

  • Expensive
  • More complicated, introduces problems, can cause legitimate end users to be unable to communicate (and Murphy's Law dictates this will occur at the time when they need help the worst)
  • Excludes interoperability, which is the purported justification for buying these new systems in the first place
  • Empowers unprofessional behavior
  • Puts the safety of the public at risk
  • Causes people to question departments, perhaps even encouraging reforms or defunding of the department
  • And many move
 

Nutes

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Encryption Pros Cons

I think this thread really hits home on the broad problem we face today in terms of police/government relationships and the citizenry.

Look we all know that it is necessary and prudent to maintain well equipped, well trained local police forces. It would be silly to suggest otherwise. However, it is also neither fair, prudent, or reasonable to disregard the massive gains in "POLICE POWER" that have been absorbed by local/state and Federal Police forces over the last 30 years. More and more the overall attitude, structure, funding and training for local police is moving towards making it CONVIENIENT to pursue, arrest and convict suspects, not SERVE and PROTECT the PUBLIC. The line between criminal and public is being blurred more and more. Unfortunately, many of these suspects are the minority that break away from "us" who do in fact pay taxes, obey the law, work, mind our own business and try to be productive citizens. More and more "we the people" are told "NO" when it comes to arming ourselves, or INFORMING ourselves as we try to do with scanners in general.

To me Encryption in the end is just the snobbery of our own government looking down their nose at us, the people and saying: "Move along, you don't need to know". Throughout history,............how has that attitude by the government worked out for the people?
 

AggieCon

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Nutes, I agree with everything you said except one small important nuance.

mind our own business

This is part of the problem. Too many people fail to take action to correct these problems. Once we stop complaining about "look what they are doing to us" and instead frame the situation in "wow, look what I have allowed," it makes one realize that he, in fact, is the reason for the current social and political landscape. Each of us could take action to create true change to modify what is likely a dark future if kept on its current path. And, if you don't take action, then who will? Likely no one. Fortunately, one individual can make a lot of difference. I should be extremely pleased to discuss with anyone a plan of action to create real change.

As it is now, we are all criminals... the government jurisdictions just haven't amassed enough resources to round us all up yet.

Aside: Encryption is expensive and does restrict interoperability. Additionally, even if they don't directly listen to scanner traffic, much of the public is informed indirectly via monitoring government radio traffic. If any of these points are unclear, please PM me and I will explain. The OP point of this thread is how to keep scanners from going away, and it will take all of us to actuallytake action to prevent it.
 

Nutes

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Nutes, I agree with everything you said except one small important nuance.



This is part of the problem. Too many people fail to take action to correct these problems. Once we stop complaining about "look what they are doing to us" and instead frame the situation in "wow, look what I have allowed," it makes one realize that he, in fact, is the reason for the current social and political landscape. Each of us could take action to create true change to modify what is likely a dark future if kept on its current path. And, if you don't take action, then who will? Likely no one. Fortunately, one individual can make a lot of difference. I should be extremely pleased to discuss with anyone a plan of action to create real change.

As it is now, we are all criminals... the government jurisdictions just haven't amassed enough resources to round us all up yet.

Aside: Encryption is expensive and does restrict interoperability. Additionally, even if they don't directly listen to scanner traffic, much of the public is informed indirectly via monitoring government radio traffic. If any of these points are unclear, please PM me and I will explain. The OP point of this thread is how to keep scanners from going away, and it will take all of us to actuallytake action to prevent it.

Whack! And that one is out of here!
 

Hans13

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There is some very good stuff in this thread. I agree with most of it. One of the problems is getting the generations younger than us to understand the necessity of accountability and transparency in government coupled with individual responsibility. Encryption of all or most government traffic would be disastrous to our republic but I believe that is precisely where we are headed.
 

N1KK

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down side of encryption, nope

I have to agree with these points. As far as exepnsive, it seems even the smallest towns in RI
are on the digital network. I never would have imagined the town I live in would have gone digital.
They always seem to find a way to get the money. I believe a lot of $$ has come from the Feds
to make all this Digital happen.
Ken


Expensive ? Nope
Excludes Interop? Nope - agencies can share a Common Code for Interop if needed and the NIFOG's listed Interops are either Analog or P25/CLR not ENC and Radios can contain multiple Encryption Codes
Puts the Safety of the Public at Risk ? Nope, I would say 95% of the public would not know a Police Scanner if it hit them.
 

ecps92

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Don't confuse the points of Digital and Encryption
Yes it is not that expensive
If coordinated keys can be and are shared, thru key management
And Yes, much has come from Federal Grant $$$

I have to agree with these points. As far as exepnsive, it seems even the smallest towns in RI
are on the digital network. I never would have imagined the town I live in would have gone digital.
They always seem to find a way to get the money. I believe a lot of $$ has come from the Feds
to make all this Digital happen.
Ken
 

Nutes

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Encryption Pros Cons

I have had several years experience pursuing Federal and State Grants for local municipalities in a former job. Trust me. The vast majority of Local Law Enforcement would not have digital radio signal capability, much less encryption if were not for millions upon millions of Federal dollars flowing to State Departments of Criminal Justice, Attorney General's Offices, State Dept. of Corrections etc.. In the mean time, we are 19 trillion in debt. Wait......a few seconds went by....it is now 20.
 

AggieCon

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I really hate to stray away from the topic of maintaining open government communications, but I want to address a couple of points. No one has messaged me about this, by the way.

Even if the agency in question does not seem to bear the expense (i.e. it gets a grant), the expense is indeed passed to the agency. One must remember that expense is essentially opportunity cost. When money is spent on one thing (i.e. unnecessary radio equipment), there is an opposite: Less training, less emphasis on other equipment, less money kept by the public (which likely leads to more crime). Those grants could be offered for more prudent activities, or, as previously mentioned, not be offered at all since we are spending our great great grandkids money so some folks can talk in "private."

If someone has to buy encryption modules, it is expensive. If you upgrade your system entirely so you have have the latest encryption, it is expensive. And even if you have the latest system, encryption is still expensive. Are the incremental gains from all of this worth it? Is it really money well spent (/\/\ and |-| execs would say "hell yes")? If we are already dedicating the money to a department, is it really a better use than additional training?

Here's an example of the cost from the public records of a government agency:

EncryptionCost.jpg


Of course, no one at the meeting even questions a Hospital District spending $50,000 to conceal their communications. Meanwhile, people are dying due to inadequate emergency services.

Interop does suffer. You mention incredibly complicated ways to make it work. And when the agencies are on different systems, it makes it essentially moot. Again, private message me for clarity. This is not the topic of the thread. I challenge anyone to produce evidence that all of this has prevented a single instance of injury or loss of life.

What the OP, two years ago, was initially concerned about was LTE, and it's something that must be on our radar. First Responder Network Authority This is the sort of stuff, hidden in stimulus legislation, that is occurring today. Our money is being used to create separate networks the government can operate on when ours fail (or are turned off by the feds...). Instead of working to make the universal networks more secure and robust, millions are spent to create networks we can't monitor. Can anyone brainstorm situations where such a network could be utilized to the full extent by the state? Is this sort of supreme communications technology something we really even want in control of the state? From the point of view of some in our country, every communications network is first and primarily a government system (i.e. your regular LTE network will preference the "official" uses). In an event or catastrophe, your emergency is not worth communicating. You don't really need to organize family or friends. Your basic human right to communicate is trumped by that of the government official, who is obviously benevolent, acting in the best interest of society without any other motives or agenda.

I'm sure many of us who scan have noticed continual discrepancies between what really happened during an incident, what the agency publicly releases, and what the "news" media reports. While maintaining some sort of accountability is important, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that one day we might wake up unable to listen or communicate at all, with those in power assuming the ultimate control by holding the only effective communications technology. If this seems far fetched, check out North Korea, Iran, and a number of other jurisdictions our leaders continue to pander to. Just as we have the Second Amendment to hold the government accountable to the people, we should not allow the domestic communications infrastructure held by the government to be separate and supreme to that available to the general citizenry.

To make any of this thread worthwhile, it means that each of us must take action. I would love to talk with anyone about what you can do. A good place to start is to open records request the recordings of the encrypted traffic. Have samples of what is really communicated in the dark (i.e. that it's not sensitive), as well as examples of unprofessionalism. Start attending every government meeting. Organize others to take action with you. Get a job as the agency's radio tech, expert, or consultant. Run for office. Help place true public servants in key positions. Develop cheaper and more effective communications technologies and control their implementation (i.e. that they be open). In this situation, the media is likely to be on your side (unless they have a special radio that gets to listen) since they too want to be able to monitor to do their job. Use this to your advantage. There is so much that could be done, but I am not aware of anyone who is actually taking action on this. I admit, I, too, haven't done much... but I'm working on creating change in other areas at the moment. We would be more productive shifting the conversation to what we should do and then taking action to reform our current and future government and society.
 

koz303

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Encryption radio system are cheap, when your spending the tax payer money, I say hold everyone pay and save up and then let's how bad they need a encryption system?
 

buddrousa

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TYT MD-380 $120.00 with encryption. EF Johnson SL51 1500.00 with encryption. Kenwood TK2180 500.00 with encryption. Motorola XPR 6550 1000.00 with encryption. All of these radios come with encryption built in no extra charge. It can be done cheap it does not have to be lke it is CIA FBI ect.
 

N1KK

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MD-380

If this is the HT I am thinking of they have hacked firmware to allow this to listen to P25 but I don't
think there is a feature to enter a key for encryption.

Ken

TYT MD-380 $120.00 with encryption. EF Johnson SL51 1500.00 with encryption. Kenwood TK2180 500.00 with encryption. Motorola XPR 6550 1000.00 with encryption. All of these radios come with encryption built in no extra charge. It can be done cheap it does not have to be lke it is CIA FBI ect.
 

N4GIX

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If this is the HT I am thinking of they have hacked firmware to allow this to listen to P25 but I don't
think there is a feature to enter a key for encryption.
The 'hacked firmware' does nothing at the moment but enable a form of "monitor mode" and some minor font changes. :wink:
 

N4GIX

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And my reply was directed solely to the person I quoted, and that was regarding P25 decoding. Encryption does work, albeit not legally in the ham bands or GMRS, which are the only two services I use mine for.
 

jim202

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Expensive ? Nope
Excludes Interop? Nope - agencies can share a Common Code for Interop if needed and the NIFOG's listed Interops are either Analog or P25/CLR not ENC and Radios can contain multiple Encryption Codes
Puts the Safety of the Public at Risk ? Nope, I would say 95% of the public would not know a Police Scanner if it hit them.

Encryption is being pushed by the radio vendors because it makes them extra money. The cost point can add between $250 to $500 per radio if the circuitry is already in the existing radio. It could be even more depending on the selected radio vendor. Sort of depends also on the age and model of the radio. Don't forget that the dispatch consoles also have to be able to use encryption. This is an additional cost that most people don't put into the tally sheet to come up with the bottom line cost.

As far as interoperability goes, this all depends on how the radio shop was told to program the radios. I know the NIFOG states that communications should be in the analog mode and in the clear. But that is not always the case. Then you also have those new systems that are P25, phase 2. But the surrounding agencies are all P25 phase 1 and their radios can't do phase 2. So now we have another issue that was built in due to the choice to go to phase 2. Again the radio vendors sold a bill of goods for phase 2 that probably was not needed and never will. Yup there is talk about splitting the channels again, but I am not holding my breath on that one.

This argument will go on for years and the radio vendors just sit back and enjoy their bank account from the sales.

One of the issues about encryption that hasn't been mentioned is the time and task to maintain the encryption key. Some agencies are told to change it frequently and others never change the key at all. If you do change the encryption key, this is a labor intensive project and it takes each radio out of service while the key is being changed. What this means is the user of that radio being updated with a new key is standing around doing nothing while the radio tech is doing his magic. So your really paying 2 people while the radio is having the encryption key changed.

Those few systems that have over the air ability to change the encryption key have found it takes time and again takes each radio out of service while it's being done. I think Tait has a system that allows the radio to continue functioning during the over the air download. But still requires the radio to do a power cycle when the download is complete.
 
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