The Official Thread: Live audio feeds, scanners, and... wait for it.. ENCRYPTION!

[Dog]

Remove swat as part of the scanned channels that go on to broadcastify, like car to car channels aren't allowed, swat shouldn't be in there due to high sensitive stuff on swat channels

From my understanding Swat and Tac channels also some other talk groups, are not broadcast as due to broadcatify policy.

Feed Provider Terms of Service - What can and cannot be broadcast​

Broadcastify Support
February 04, 2023 08:48
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Feed Provider Terms of Service - What can and cannot be broadcast​

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Feed Providers are not allowed to broadcast:

• "SWAT type" operations if on channels or talkgroups dedicated to those operations
• Narcotics / CID / Investigations or other tactical operations on channels or talkgroups dedicated to those operations
• Dedicated channels or talkgroups for Ambulance to Hospital Communications
• Dedicated Federal Government or Military Communications (exceptions include any fire fighting operations, NASA space communications, park ranger operations)
• Any commercial service broadcast (FM/AM/TV etc)
• Music or talk show of any kind (commercial or non-commercial)
• DJ or other type of similar activity (commercial or non-commercial)
• Open Microphones

 

[mmckenna]

Full time encryption of suitable talkgroups/channels.
Proper cooperation between agencies (sharing encryption keys on mutual aid channels)

As for transparency, I do not agree that scanner hobbyists are the only resource available to ensure transparency in law enforcement. This one smells the same as the ham radio "When all else fails" thing. Self importance at its best.

Agencies, if they choose to share radio traffic with the general public:
- Some modern logging recorders in dispatch centers have the ability to stream radio traffic to the internet and add a set time delay. There is also an option for a button that dispatcher can hit that immediately suspends the feed.
- Add streaming delays of a suitable amount of time to prevent the subjects from getting information in time to react.

But, as said above, this isn't going to go well. There are already a number of discussions going on about encryption….

As with many of them, those discussing encryption from the hobbyist point of view do not have full understanding of the reasons behind it. It is important that anyone discussing this keep an open mind.

 

[Dog]

If you have never read the Feed Providers terms of service you might take a look. It isn't hard to read.
Feed Provider Terms of Service

I never had until now. Some interesting stuff of you care. lol

 

[mmckenna]

If you have never read the Feed Providers terms of service you might take a look. It isn't hard to read.
Feed Provider Terms of Service

I never had until now. Some interesting stuff of you care. lol

Not all public safety streaming is through Broadcastify.
Any 15 year old kid with an internet connection and a scanner could stream traffic.
Any consumer with a few bucks can buy a radio that will allow reception of public safety radio traffic.

I understand what you (and others) are saying about the TOS for broadcastify, but that alone won't solve the issue.

 

[quicho1961]

Does anyone know if Flipper Zero can be used to unencrypt p25 comms? I also trying to see if Universal Radio Hacker software, can be use to decode encrypted signals. This software is very powerfull, but it need to be learn how to do the job

 

[KevinC]

Does anyone know if Flipper Zero can be used to unencrypt p25 comms? I also trying to see if Universal Radio Hacker software, can be use to decode encrypted signals. This software is very powerfull, but it need to be learn how to do the job

I’m going with a no.

 

[quicho1961]

I’m going with a no.

Ok and many thanks

 

[KE4ZNR]

Does anyone know if Flipper Zero can be used to unencrypt p25 comms? I also trying to see if Universal Radio Hacker software, can be use to decode encrypted signals. This software is very powerfull, but it need to be learn how to do the job

Posting about breaking the law on a public message board is probably not the smartest thing to do but you do you.

 

[Firebuff66]

Does anyone know if Flipper Zero can be used to unencrypt p25 comms? I also trying to see if Universal Radio Hacker software, can be use to decode encrypted signals. This software is very powerfull, but it need to be learn how to do the job

I'm going to say that the 2 Software you mentioned are now going to be used as an argument for Encryption And OTAR by every PD that wants a new system, I have been to many of those meetings and RR was always brought up for an excuse to encrypt but let's not give them any more ammo if we still want to listen

 

[mmisk]

Given that they can go to federal prison for doing so, probably not.

I expect that if someone could decrypt radio communications and then streamed to the public, that would quickly draw attention to them and action would be taken.
Apart from that, the law is unenforceable if you were just listening at home privately.
Of course, decrypting AES 256 is impossible so this is a moot point.

Here in Ottawa the police went encrypted, and then the fire department.
Why would you need to encrypt fire departments? I expect our fire department went encrypted to put a stop to theft of radio communications and streaming it to the public.

No one is stealing and streaming police or fire communications in Ottawa any more, however they are still streaming our provincial police.
Well, the new provincial system will be fully encrypted and that will put a stop to theft of communications with streaming to the public.
And that is good, I cannot blame them for enabling encryption.
So, bottom line is do not stream and just listen privately and do not cause issues.
Streaming is just shooting ourselves in the foot. Not a lot left to listen to anymore.

 

[AB5ID]

Why would you need to encrypt fire departments?

Because you can and nobody tells you that you can't.

 

[jthorpe]

I expect that if someone could decrypt radio communications and then streamed to the public, that would quickly draw attention to them and action would be taken.
Apart from that, the law is unenforceable if you were just listening at home privately.
Of course, decrypting AES 256 is impossible so this is a moot point.

Here in Ottawa the police went encrypted, and then the fire department.
Why would you need to encrypt fire departments? I expect our fire department went encrypted to put a stop to theft of radio communications and streaming it to the public.

No one is stealing and streaming police or fire communications in Ottawa any more, however they are still streaming our provincial police.
Well, the new provincial system will be fully encrypted and that will put a stop to theft of communications with streaming to the public.
And that is good, I cannot blame them for enabling encryption.
So, bottom line is do not stream and just listen privately and do not cause issues.
Streaming is just shooting ourselves in the foot. Not a lot left to listen to anymore.

Yep, streaming his killed scanning, and it's now dying a very slow death.

 

[Ensnared]

I heard that Fremont County, Colorado encrypted all their main dispatch talkgroups because they didn't want to be "live fed" on the internet. Looks like it worked...

I'm sure there are others...

Colorado used to be a wonderful P25 system, with limited encryption. Now, they have been infested with "E." I don't know if there is an anecdote for this horrible disease.

 

[AB5ID]

I've heard in the past that there is a cost difference between having your system encrypted versus not encrypted. Is this still the case? Has the prices dropped? Apparently encryption is becoming the status quo for new and upgraded systems.

 

[mmckenna]

I've heard in the past that there is a cost difference between having your system encrypted versus not encrypted. Is this still the case? Has the prices dropped? Apparently encryption is becoming the status quo for new and upgraded systems.

It depends on what you define as the "system".

The repeaters don't care what order the ones and zeros are arranged in, they just pass them. Most consoles will support encryption as a standard feature.

The individual radios will vary, depending on what flavor encryption you want.
I haven't bought a digital radio in 12 years that didn't have some level of encryption included in the base cost.
If higher level algorithms are required, it costs more. Could be a few hundred bucks per radio.
But before anyone freaks out over the "few hundred bucks per radio", keep in mind that a lot of agencies are spending $8000 per radio, batteries can cost $150 each, speaker mics $100 each, so the cost of AES-256 is a drop in the overall bucket.

And then figure in that it's required by the FBI and many state DOJ's when handling PII/CJI.

 

[hitechRadio]

Was just thinking, I remember when people on here and other forums thought P25 "was" encryption. Because the analog only scanner could not pick it up.

ADP encryption is included standard in many Public saftey radio's.
Although ADP can apparently be cracked easily I have heard, unlike AES.
It is still crime to crack "any" encryption, no matter the level of security the ALGO provides. Public saftey radio system or not.

Discussion of cracking is just dumb and shines a light on yourself, especially in a public forum.

 

[mmckenna]

Was just thinking, I remember when people on here and other forums thought P25 "was" encryption. Because the analog only scanner could not pick it up.

And trunking, and everything else that was "end of the hobby".

ADP encryption is included standard in many Public saftey radio's.
Although ADP can apparently be cracked easily I have heard, unlike AES.
It is still crime to crack "any" encryption, no matter the level of security the ALGO provides. Public saftey radio system or not.

Discussion of cracking is just dumb and shines a light on yourself, especially in a public forum.

Yeah, and while ADP/RC4 and other low level types can be hacked, it's not something that is going to be incorporated into new scanners, or easily done by most hobbyists.

There are reasons why AES256 is required by most.

 

[Anderegg]

And trunking, and everything else that was "end of the hobby".



Yeah, and while ADP/RC4 and other low level types can be hacked, it's not something that is going to be incorporated into new scanners, or easily done by most hobbyists.

There are reasons why AES256 is required by most.

CHP giving update on moving to encryption OTA and Motorola NEXT based RoIP. I have been saying that damn RoIP would be the death nail regardless of OTA encryption.

CHP on Vimeo

Paul

 

[mmckenna]

CHP giving update on moving to encryption OTA and Motorola NEXT based RoIP. I have been saying that damn RoIP would be the death nail regardless of OTA encryption.

CHP on Vimeo

Paul

Yeah, I had a meeting with CalOES a month or so ago regarding CRIS.
CHP will be migrating, but they expect low band will stick around for quite a while.
Between CRIS and LTE, no doubt we'll see less and less traffic on low band.

 

[Nortonterrier]

Those that are streaming Law Enforcement comm's on Broadcastify and/or other on-line streaming services are potentially jeopardizing these comm's to remain in the clear. Most bad guys are not going to invest hundreds of $$$'s in a radio just to stay one step ahead of LE when they commit a crime. However, with the availability of these comm's via streaming services, the criminals just fire up the local feed on their phone & evade LE.

Such is the case in 2 separate instances in Union County, NC. Union Sheriff patrol was involved in a chase with a suspect. He was one step ahead of them the entire time. The chase ended when the suspect crashed the vehicle. Discovered in the wreckage was the suspect's cell phone listening to USCO dispatch via Broadcastify. This raised some red flags with the upper echelon in the Sheriff's office.

The 2nd case involved a multi-agency task force on a stake-out. A local newspaper reporter was listening via Broadcastify on his phone. Hearing the possibility of a big pending drug bust, the reporter showed up at the scene with photographers', etc. LE personnel confronted the reporter and informed him that his presence had just compromised a six-month investigation. These comm's should have been carried out on an encrypted tac channel, but the only inter-agency common ground in this case was an "In the Clear" tac channel.

These instances were discussed by Union LE upper management. A request to Broadcastify was made to remove the Dispatch & TAC feeds. Broadcastify responded with: "If you are in the clear, then we will continue to stream the audio." That's when the decision was made to turn on the "BIG E".
Shortly thereafter agencies in the adjacent counties of Stanly, NC & Lancaster, SC followed suit and went full encryption on all LE comm's county wide.
This was several years ago & it is doubtful that they will ever return to "In the Clear" comms.

If you are streaming LE Dispatch comm's, please contact the agency system manager & get their blessing for the feed.
It is too risky to not do so!

Other options that may keep the temptation to go encrypted would be:

1. Block mobile IP addresses on LE streamed audio.
2. Add a delay to the stream so that it would not hamper live activities.
3. Do not stream LE TAC channels.
4. If an agency asks to have their feed removed - DO IT!! - No ???'s asked!!!

All of us have a lot's of $$'s invested in various P-25 receivers.
I hate to think that someday they will all be worthless because of encryption!

If you are running your scanner mobile in a legally allowed area, your eyes & ears may be all that is needed to assist LE.
Report what you see to dispatch - Help from the public is encouraged. This can restore credibility to our hobby!


Ok - That's it - I will not step down from the soap box!