Toms River PD

[DSYCUTTER]

I know a few officers in Toms River, I've forwarded info to them that their radio system may be compromised, we'll see what happens.

Not that I agree with stvnd53 is doing.... there is no need to be an Ethug and publically threaten him, how about next time if you wanna talk smack to him, you take it into a PM thanks.

 

[mondaro]

I am sure they will start a huge investigation too !! LOL

 

[RocketNJ]

If you still believe this is possible, we all can provide you with cost effective shares in a bridge between Staten Island and Brooklyn.

I think you mean Manhattan and Brooklyn

 

[kenisned]

He's probably lying anyway.

I wouldn't get worked up over it.

 

[DJ88]

People need to accept the fact that encryption on the local level is a reality and accept it and move on. Although it is sporadic now, I'm sure we will see more and more of it in the near future. Monitoring law enforcement agencies is not a right, it's a priviledge. If they don't want us listening to them, so be it. That's their priviledge. It's not the end of the world. And, if something big does happen, we will more than likely "read all about it" in the local newspapers. We can still monitor fire and EMS, and that's where most of the action is anyway, so let's just be thankful we have that. In my opinion, the extremes that some people will go to in order to break the law, and that's exactly what they're doing by monitoring encrypted transmissions, is ridiculous. If it were legal, Uniden Radio Shack and all of the other mahufacturers would be producing scanners that could decode them, and if that were the case, there would be no purpose for encryption anyway. So, let's all just stay within the law and enjoy monitoring what we can while we can.

 

[mondaro]

I don't think you will see more and more local Police going to P25 anytime soon. I spoke to a few chiefs that are turned off by it, I know in my local town here where I live I spoke to my chief of Police about these sorts of systems he indicated to me that encrypting Police Radio transmissions takes the public out of assisting the Police he said to me he was amazed how many people have scanners that call in tips on crimes in progress, I asked him I many people in his long career that he arrested that had police scanners he indicated to me very few he could count them on hand in his 25 year career. So if Toms River wants to do it and we can't listen so be it I think in the long run shame on them for taking the public element out of assisting the Police on a local level. Currently my department is looking to upgrade our system either P25 or encrypting where never discussed once, but I have to credit his fast talking Motorola dealer he tried jamming a new P25 system down his throat after with finished laughing we told him no way.

 

[DJ88]

I understand what youy're saying Tony, but I wasn't necessarily referring to P25, just encryption. In other words, integrating the encryption option into their current analog systems. I also read somewhere on one of the scanning boards that simply installing the encryption option into a system that's already up and running is not that expensive. I can't confirm or deny that, however, as I really don't know anything about it.

Brick Township, where I live, is upgrading their analog radio system in phases, and I believe it will remain analog. Phase 1 is complete and I believe they are into phase 2 now, and I was told that at some point they will have encryption capabilities.

Granted, some departments feel that public input is a good thing, but there are others who couldn't give a hoot about it and want to keep EVERYTHING from us. They don't want us involved, in any way, except when they have a case that has them baffled. Then they cry for the public's help. All of a sudden we're their best friends. Makes me laugh.

 

[KC2GVX]

Just out of curiosity, what are Brick's plans for the long term? A guy I used to know said they were heading for P25 digital, but I never heard anything more on that. Don't mean to hijack a TR threat, but I think it is ending its' life soon anyway.

 

[DJ88]

The only thing I've heard is that Phase 1 of the upgrade is finished and that they will be adding encryption. As for them remaining analog, there's a possibility that may have only been for Phase 1. If you heard digital, maybe that will come about as they continue to upgrade. If I hear anyrhing, I will post.

 

[902]

<snip> So, let's all just stay within the law and enjoy monitoring what we can while we can.

That's the best policy, I think. Sit back and enjoy it!

There are several things happening right now that will affect public safety communications within the next several years. One is a movement to establish public safety broadband networks. There is a lot of contention about how exactly that should be done, but most people agree that eventually the data portion of 700 MHz will be allowed to be aggregated into either wideband or broadband block of resource. A proof of concept on 700 MHz using aggregated data channels was just wrapped up in Washington, DC. The newest thing on the horizon is an integrated transceiver that is a data-driven device operating on broadband. Think a laptop or PDA with an air card in it. The voice "radio" function will be a radio emulation application on the device that will transmit voice as packetized data over the broadband network. There are some who say that within as soon as 5 years, there will be agencies using data subscriber units and channelized voice transmission in analog or even P25 will fall out of favor.

Some even say that the compliance in the use of such system might be tied to receiving federal grant monies.

If that happens, monitoring would be completely finished unless an agency elects to webcast its traffic.

 

[elias1988]

The only thing I've heard is that Phase 1 of the upgrade is finished and that they will be adding encryption. As for them remaining analog, there's a possibility that may have only been for Phase 1. If you heard digital, maybe that will come about as they continue to upgrade. If I hear anyrhing, I will post.

I just looked at Brick's license and they modified it on Thursday to add 5 new mobile frequencies.

 

[Wacker1]

To stvnd53

Good Luck with that Enc. code

 

[hulka]

Well I remember reading somewhere that by 2011 all the systems had to be in p25 compliance to to the overloading of the frequency spectrum. I know that most people hate the p-25 but it is going to be a reality. It takes up less spectrum than and analog channel, thus giving you more channels in the radio spectrum. As for the encryption, it is going to be a reality because it is becoming cheaper to use then lets say 10 years ago.

The problem with encryption on the older analog systems or just the systems in general is that Motorola does not support it any more so if it breaks you are SOL, you need to try to band aid it or find some parts from somewhere. So in essence they are forcing you to upgrade to a new P-25 system, where it be Motorola or who ever.

It is just like buying a computer. What you buy today may not and probably will not be good in 5 years from now.

Out here in Phoenix most agencies are on P-25 Trunking systems. Maricopa County Sheriff s Office, Sheriff Arpaio the world renown Sheriff with Tent City, has a few talk groups encrypted. Mostly the 1000+ talk groups are in the clear. A few departments use there system also and some TGs are encrypted, some are clear.

Phoenix Police have a big system with other agencies on it and I would say about 1/4 of it is in the clear.

It is going to be the way of life in the near future. P-25 is here to stay and soon P-16 might come out. Only time will tell.

 

[DJ88]

I remember reading or hearing about that (P25 compliant mandatory) also, a mandate put forth by the FCC.

 

[Tech792]

FCC mandate

The FCC is accepting regular wideband applications till 2011. The compliance date for "spectrum efficient" technology is 2013. It does not have to be strictly P25. But a spectrum efficent technology. Which means it could be analog on a narrow banded split, trunking, etc.
Don't hold your breath on the 2013. It will probably get pushed forward again.

 

[902]

I remember reading or hearing about that (P25 compliant mandatory) also, a mandate put forth by the FCC.

The only responsibility to P25 is the use of P25 on the 700 MHz interoperability channels. Other than that, there are bandwidth metrics that apply rather than technology requirements. For example, to be compliant after 01-01-2013, you will need one voicepath or 9.6 kbps within a 12.5 kHz channelspace. There is a transition date to 6.25 kHz equivalency on 700 MHz and the Commission has tabled a transition date for lower frequency bands.

OpenSky, when it is operating in 4 slot TDMA meets the 6.25 kHz equivalency. The second phase of P25 will likely be some TDMA solution that loosely resembles TETRA (what all this disaster should have been). Motorola is already marketing a non-standards-based repeater that works in a proprietary TDMA environment, MOTOTRBO, and can get two independent voice channels out of one digital repeater. No scanning that. In fact, I'd bet it's probably a few bits away from what they are lobbying for the P25 phase 2 standard to be.
http://business.motorola.com/mototrbo/mototrbo.html

Still, there is no mandate now or in the future for any non-700 MHz interoperability channel operations to be P25. The GAO did a big report on P25:
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d07301.pdf

The thing about technology is that it moves faster than people, funding and regulations do. Sometimes they are born, live and die before we ever get a chance to react to them.

 

[Raccon]

OpenSky, when it is operating in 4 slot TDMA meets the 6.25 kHz equivalency. The second phase of P25 will likely be some TDMA solution that loosely resembles TETRA (what all this disaster should have been).

I am curious: You mean TETRA is a disaster? Where and why?

 

[ctrabs74]

I am curious: You mean TETRA is a disaster? Where and why?

Probably because TETRA can't be monitored by any scanner on the market; it's already in full use all over Europe. If TETRA were ever to be implemented in the US, then it would be a disaster for the scanning hobby in general.

 

[W2SJW]

I think he means that all these issues would be 'nil' if Motorola implemented TETRA in the US.

It's such a smashing success everywhere else in the world that it's implemented at...

 

[Raccon]

Probably because TETRA can't be monitored by any scanner on the market; it's already in full use all over Europe. If TETRA were ever to be implemented in the US, then it would be a disaster for the scanning hobby in general.

Thanks, I understand the issue related to scanning though I am not certain that's what 902 was referring to.

I think he means that all these issues would be 'nil' if Motorola implemented TETRA in the US.

Not sure what you are trying to say here ... ?

It's such a smashing success everywhere else in the world that it's implemented at...

Not a smashing success perhaps but it's not doing too bad in Europe and Asia (especially in China & Hong Kong).