West Seneca is going to Saia Net

[weweber1991]

While I'm not 100% confident about it, and @weweber1991 would probably be more in tune with it all, an FD in that town that I'm aware of recently upgraded to APX 6000s, so that would cut short their return on investment of that expensive upgrade. IMO, switching from an APX6k to an XPR would not be an "upgrade", radio speaking.

Town wide the FD’s have upgraded from HT and CDM1250s to APX4k & 4.5k. One department even went to APX6k’s. These were all through grants over the past several years. I think everyone is switched to APX now.
We have a few XPRs in my dept that were ordered I think by accident, or because of pinching Pennies (Of course 2 of the 3 ended up in my buggy). For Mobiles, XPRs aren’t bad at all. The only XPR portable was quickly taken out, as there are no “stops” in the channel selector. Plus the remote mic offerings were garbage for it. We have RSMs for all our APX portables with the high-temp cord, volume control, aux button, light, and Man down button, officer positions have a channel selector on the RSM.
But as far as the subject at hand, some departments JUST finished phasing out HT’s, I think they wouldn’t be too keen on switching everything out again. Thus the potential upgrades to the existing system was more viable for the foreseeable future.

 

[wqhz937]

Ok, need a little education here. Based on this thread, my understanding is WS is using the SaiaNet site on Seneca One Tower. I set up my SDS100 (which is upgraded for DMR) with this site. I’m in North Buffalo and the signal should be strong according to the coverage maps. However, I’m getting absolutely nothing. Even on ID Search, not a thing. Although I am able to pick up talk groups very well on UB North and Lancaster which should have a lower RSSI. Any advice with this?

 

[GTR8000]

First thing to do is make sure you're actually receiving a signal from that site. Go through each control channel frequency one by one in analog search mode, and verify that you're receiving a signal from one of them.

 

[Trbogeek]

The APX 6000/8000 are objectively more rugged than any of the XPR portables. They also have noticeably louder audio coming out of the speaker, especially at full volume. And the XE500 speaker mic is more rugged than any XPR offering, as it was designed for the fireground. Yes yes I know, it's all overpriced junk, right? MSI does get some things right once in a while, perhaps in spite of the inflated price tag once you make something P25 capable.

I'll debate this, as the XPR and 1500 are same skeleton. When XPR tuned, aligned correctly, speaker volume as loud or louder. The remote mic is more robust, and once interfaced with the XPR, but we know what happened with that. All that being said, it's difficult to cheer the praise of a P25 radio, configured for single channel, analog repeaters.

 

[Wackyracer]

Ok, need a little education here. Based on this thread, my understanding is WS is using the SaiaNet site on Seneca One Tower. I set up my SDS100 (which is upgraded for DMR) with this site. I’m in North Buffalo and the signal should be strong according to the coverage maps. However, I’m getting absolutely nothing. Even on ID Search, not a thing. Although I am able to pick up talk groups very well on UB North and Lancaster which should have a lower RSSI. Any advice with this?

Did you import the system via sentinel or did you manually put in in ? If you used sentinel, then everything is correct. so then you can start looking at what antenna as you may be just a little to far from the site.

 

[GTR8000]

I'll debate this, as the XPR and 1500 are same skeleton. When XPR tuned, aligned correctly, speaker volume as loud or louder. The remote mic is more robust, and once interfaced with the XPR, but we know what happened with that. All that being said, it's difficult to cheer the praise of a P25 radio, configured for single channel, analog repeaters.

The "1500" what? The XTS 1500? That's a 20 year old design, and the comparison was XPR vs APX, not XTS. Also, the XTS 1500 was the lowest tier ASTRO 25 offering, so a better comparison would've been to the XTS 5000 if you want to compare the XPR to a 20+ year old design.

I think you have trouble praising any P25 offering, to be honest. I get it, I know why you champion all of the DMR stuff, but it seems somewhat disingenuous and biased to never have anything objectively good to say about a P25 device. Just calling it how I see it.

 

[Trbogeek]

The "1500" what? The XTS 1500? That's a 20 year old design, and the comparison was XPR vs APX, not XTS. Also, the XTS 1500 was the lowest tier ASTRO 25 offering, so a better comparison would've been to the XTS 5000 if you want to compare the XPR to a 20+ year old design.

I think you have trouble praising any P25 offering, to be honest. I get it, I know why you champion all of the DMR stuff, but it seems somewhat disingenuous and biased to never have anything objectively good to say about a P25 device. Just calling it how I see it.

I have little good to say about a high tier, over priced, mostly, in digital mode, configured proprietary, killing the P25 interoperability. That being said, if they were not free, to public safety but very expensive to the public, and in most cases run analog, those pushing P25 for idealistic reasons, but daily use on 30 yr old, under performing systems, is also disingenuous. Promoting a system that, in fact offers today, what P25 publicly promises, but rarely delivers, is worth the look. Do you believe APX, or any other P25 radio, woukd have the sales numbers, if not free?

 

[Trbogeek]

Have you turned up an XPR all the way? The audio sucks. Turn up an APX all the way, it's still crystal clear. Because firegrounds aren't loud environments that might need that right? Those "really expensive knobs", you know, the ones that really click and don't just easily spin like the XPRs do, are on a radio that's ergonomics are extremely beneficial for that gloved firefighter to use, potentially in a life-and-death situation. So, I'm gonna say those "really expensive knobs" offset the life of a firefighter, but hey, that's just my opinion. I was speaking of physical radio characteristics. Not specific to DMR. Not specific to P25. Not specific to SaiaNet. Same reason why I believe the NX5300 isn't "the best option" for firefighter use. Hands down, PHYSICALLY speaking, the APX line of radios (4000 and up) are probably the best radios for firefighters to have on the market

How were fires ever faught, before big knobs 🤔? You change channels often, after setting to fire ground? How does your man down work, when you're the a mutual aid? Does the alarm go to your dispatch, or the town you're helping? With all the different fire ground TAC channels, that tends to be a problem. Have you ever had a correctly alligned XPR with audio set? I go back to my initial question, how many PD, FD, EMS, would own APX 4000, 6000, if they weren't free?

 

[ak716]

How were fires ever faught, before big knobs 🤔? You change channels often, after setting to fire ground? How does your man down work, when you're the a mutual aid? Does the alarm go to your dispatch, or the town you're helping? With all the different fire ground TAC channels, that tends to be a problem. Have you ever had a correctly alligned XPR with audio set? I go back to my initial question, how many PD, FD, EMS, would own APX 4000, 6000, if they weren't free?

There’s this crazy thing call evolution. Forward progress. If you haven’t had your XPR knob bump off channel super easily, it’s clearly sitting on a desk. And even if it did bump off its channel during firefighting operations, it’s not like you got the hard stop at positions 1 and 16. I’m not talking coverage, that’s a battle they should have already addressed and dealt with years ago, not 10+ years later after switching to UHF (again, keeping it fire specific), and is their next step. Well I’d hope it was aligned and programmed properly, it was done by Saia. Maybe I’ll have to double check that then and make sure it’s all correct. Well, not everyone buys their APX’s on grants…. and magically they still sell, and are used in analog only, hmmm.

Apparently you discovered the unicorn of radio communications and are just so far ahead of everyone else by recommending XPR’s in firefighting. Yeah, people used HT1250s and whatever else for many years even before that. But technology has gotten better, across all manufacturers. There are better options out there, WAY better options than a XPR.

 

[Trbogeek]

There’s this crazy thing call evolution. Forward progress. If you haven’t had your XPR knob bump off channel super easily, it’s clearly sitting on a desk. And even if it did bump off its channel during firefighting operations, it’s not like you got the hard stop at positions 1 and 16. I’m not talking coverage, that’s a battle they should have already addressed and dealt with years ago, not 10+ years later after switching to UHF (again, keeping it fire specific), and is their next step. Well I’d hope it was aligned and programmed properly, it was done by Saia. Maybe I’ll have to double check that then and make sure it’s all correct. Well, not everyone buys their APX’s on grants…. and magically they still sell, and are used in analog only, hmmm.

Apparently you discovered the unicorn of radio communications and are just so far ahead of everyone else by recommending XPR’s in firefighting. Yeah, people used HT1250s and whatever else for many years even before that. But technology has gotten better, across all manufacturers. There are better options out there, WAY better options than a XPR.

I have an XPR, amongst others, and have never, never had any chsnnel change, by accident. Most APX, in our area, was grantable. There are always exceptions, but when faced with purchasing $6000+ radios, without any infrastructure charges, it's clear what direction these various agencies are considering, and some, choosing to move to. Cant debate the direction of change, the "evolution", as well as the overall user satisfaction. Time will tell

 

[wqhz937]

Did you import the system via sentinel or did you manually put in in ? If you used sentinel, then everything is correct. so then you can start looking at what antenna as you may be just a little to far from the site.

I imported it from the RadioReference DB using ProScan

 

[GTR8000]

Alright, I think the "my radio is better than your radio" debate has been exhausted. Seems to be a reoccurring theme in every thread related to Saia lately, hmm.

Back to the topic of the thread, why don't we...

 

[k2hz]

I imported it from the RadioReference DB using ProScan

So you can assume the programming is correct. The first step, as GTR8000 suggested, is you need to see if you are able to receive the Seneca One Tower control channel. If not, you are either out of range or it is the common SDS100 intermod and desense problems if you are near a site in the same band or other strong signals. I see Seneca One channels are closely adjacent to the UB channels so that may be the issue if you are close to UB or other 424 sites.

 

[Trbogeek]

Alright, I think the "my radio is better than your radio" debate has been exhausted. Seems to be a reoccurring theme in every thread related to Saia lately, hmm.

Back to the topic of the thread, why don't we...

Only when P25 questioning comes up. So far the $6000 justification is channel knob. Point is made, I'll let it go

 

[wqhz937]

So you can assume the programming is correct. The first step, as GTR8000 suggested, is you need to see if you are able to receive the Seneca One Tower control channel. If not, you are either out of range or it is the common SDS100 intermod and desense problems if you are near a site in the same band or other strong signals. I see Seneca One channels are closely adjacent to the UB channels so that may be the issue if you are close to UB or other 424 sites.

I’ll give that a try. I also have a 996P2 I could use if the SDS is known to have issues.

 

[Ncfirewire]

I’ll give that a try. I also have a 996P2 I could use if the SDS is known to have issues.

My 996 p2 beats my sds 200 for dmr reception and its not even close

 

[Wackyracer]

My 996 p2 beats my sds 200 for dmr reception and its not even close

I had a BCD996p2 I was re-programming for a customer 2 days ago and it was right in step with my sds100 on saianet Seneca one tower. I am in South Cheektowaga east of Union rd.

 

[k2hz]

I’ll give that a try. I also have a 996P2 I could use if the SDS is known to have issues.

The 996P2 should be fine. My 436 gives solid reception of systems the SDS either can't hear at all or reception breaks up.

 

[Rabid716]

Would someone be kind enough to post their DSDPlus.frequencies file for the Seneca One tower please?

This is what I came up with but I seem to be stuck locked on a control channel within FMP24 on a 1R DSD+ FastLane setup, rather than tuning for a split second to voice channel and then jumping back to the control channel. I'm guessing my DSDPlus.frequencies file is to blame here. I can hear bits and pieces of conversations but only on slot 1 of any control channel.

Con+, 171, 1, 9, 424.9, 424.9, 0
Con+, 171, 1, 11, 424.6625, 424.6625, 0
Con+, 171, 1, 13, 424.575, 424.575, 0
Con+, 171, 1, 17, 424.5625, 424.5625, 0
Con+, 171, 1, 19, 424.675, 424.675, 0

 

[k2hz]

Would someone be kind enough to post their DSDPlus.frequencies file for the Seneca One tower please?

This is what I came up with but I seem to be stuck locked on a control channel within FMP24 on a 1R DSD+ FastLane setup, rather than tuning for a split second to voice channel and then jumping back to the control channel. I'm guessing my DSDPlus.frequencies file is to blame here. I can hear bits and pieces of conversations but only on slot 1 of any control channel.

Con+, 171, 1, 9, 424.9, 424.9, 0
Con+, 171, 1, 11, 424.6625, 424.6625, 0
Con+, 171, 1, 13, 424.575, 424.575, 0
Con+, 171, 1, 17, 424.5625, 424.5625, 0
Con+, 171, 1, 19, 424.675, 424.675, 0

You do have all the channels and slots programmed. The correct frequency table for the site is on the RRDB:

SaiaNet Site: Seneca One Tower

SaiaNet Site: Seneca One Tower Details

www.radioreference.com