What is "emergency communications"?

[wa8pyr]

While critical to you, that is not critical comms. (IE, not public safety support, not infrastructure/utility support, not supporting hospitals, etc...)

I would dispute that opinion; in a situation where the cell phone networks are unreliable and people have no other way to communicate, something like that does become a critical communication. In such a situation, I'd be seriously considering roving patrols of ham operators being available to the citizenry to call for emergency aid and would request a declaration for one of the local repeaters to be off limits except for emergency communications.

 

[mmckenna]

I would dispute that opinion; in a situation where the cell phone networks are unreliable and people have no other way to communicate, something like that does become a critical communication. In such a situation, I'd be seriously considering roving patrols of ham operators being available to the citizenry to call for emergency aid and would request a declaration for one of the local repeaters to be off limits except for emergency communications.

Many people still have wired telephones that would work.
Also, GMRS and CB could easily fill the same role. I'm not disagreeing with this, just saying amateur radio isn't the only tool that will meet these sorts of needs. If a GMRS group or a CB group did roaming patrols to report emergencies, do we need to classify GMRS and CB as 'emergency' radio services also?

 

[WB9YBM]

While critical to you, that is not critical comms. (IE, not public safety support, not infrastructure/utility support, not supporting hospitals, etc...)

Actually a lot of critical coms are being done in one form or another via cell 'phones.

 

[wa8pyr]

Many people still have wired telephones that would work.

Not so much around here; the phone companies are bending over backwards to get rid of their copper networks as authorized by the Great State of Ohio a year or two ago. A significant majority of our 911 calls come in via cell phone, and while we do have a pretty fair percentage of home VOIP phones, they'll also be mostly horked if there's a major crisis.

Also, GMRS and CB could easily fill the same role. I'm not disagreeing with this, just saying amateur radio isn't the only tool that will meet these sorts of needs. If a GMRS group or a CB group did roaming patrols to report emergencies, do we need to classify GMRS and CB as 'emergency' radio services also?

GMRS and CB could certainly fill the role. The mechanism is immaterial; if a legitimate group with GMRS or CB radios makes themselves available and has made efforts to undertake at least some EmComm training like many hams do, they could certainly fill the function and I would have no qualms about using them. If a couple of dudes with CBs just show up and say "here we are we're emergency communicators" I'm going to have reservations.

I'd draw the line at calling CB and GMRS "emergency radio services" (especially CB), however. The ham radio license demonstrates at least some commitment; with GMRS all you have to do is fill out a form and write a check, while CB. . . well, you know. . . . you could easily end up with Bandit, Frog and Snowman showing up talking about being "10-10 on the side" at the local choke-and-puke.

 

[mmckenna]

Not so much around here; the phone companies are bending over backwards to get rid of their copper networks as authorized by the Great State of Ohio a year or two ago. A significant majority of our 911 calls come in via cell phone, and while we do have a pretty fair percentage of home VOIP phones, they'll also be mostly horked if there's a major crisis.

Yeah, I think the national average on 911 calls is something like 80% coming from cell phones, and it keeps increasing.
I keep a wired telephone at my house out of spite. Not sure how long I'll keep that up, but it's pretty dang reliable.

GMRS and CB could certainly fill the role. The mechanism is immaterial; if a legitimate group with GMRS or CB radios makes themselves available and has made efforts to undertake at least some EmComm training like many hams do, they could certainly fill the function and I would have no qualms about using them. If a couple of dudes with CBs just show up and say "here we are we're emergency communicators" I'm going to have reservations.

Agreed, but what we've been talking about is the lack of EmComm training for many hams. The 'emergency communications/when all else fails' thing gets talked about a lot, but it's rare to find hams that actually have any training.

I'd draw the line at calling CB and GMRS "emergency radio services" (especially CB), however. The ham radio license demonstrates at least some commitment; with GMRS all you have to do is fill out a form and write a check, while CB. . . well, you know. . . .

I can't agree on the commitment thing. There's nothing in the license tests that has anything to do with emergency communications. There's no required training in emergency communications required to get a license. Being able to operate a radio doesn't make someone an emergency communicator.

you could easily end up with Bandit, Frog and Snowman showing up talking about being "10-10 on the side" at the local choke-and-puke.

Well, a 10-100 IS better than a 10-200.
And I wouldn't mind at all if Sally Fields showed up.

 

[PrivatelyJeff]

Not so much around here; the phone companies are bending over backwards to get rid of their copper networks as authorized by the Great State of Ohio a year or two ago.

Same here in central California. If your not in the “city” and the copper line between you and junction is damaged to the point of needing to be replaced, the phone company won’t and will just give you a cell to POTS gateway and leave it at that.

 

[SuperG900]

I can't agree on the commitment thing. There's nothing in the license tests that has anything to do with emergency communications. There's no required training in emergency communications required to get a license. Being able to operate a radio doesn't make someone an emergency communicator.

Seems like having a ham license doesn't mean much to some folks. Witness the clown shows and food fights on 75 meters.

 

[n2nov]

...it's rare to find hams that actually have any training.

It is a Catch-22 situation in many areas (not all). You have hams that WANT to be trained, but no agency is willing to work with them. You have hams that get FEMA IS100/200/700/800 training on their own in anticipation of being used in the future. You can only go so far before people give up and then the word spreads that ham emcomm in your area will never happen. It is definitely a two-way street. Hams need to be willing to get whatever training they can on their own and make themselves available for any agency arranged training, but they still need an agency to work with them and offer it. Otherwise, you will continue to have those hams that want to be used and just show up anyway, while there will be an agency that just wants them to disappear like they never existed. The blade cuts in both directions.

 

[krokus]

It is a Catch-22 situation in many areas (not all). You have hams that WANT to be trained, but no agency is willing to work with them. You have hams that get FEMA IS100/200/700/800 training on their own in anticipation of being used in the future. You can only go so far before people give up and then the word spreads that ham emcomm in your area will never happen. It is definitely a two-way street. Hams need to be willing to get whatever training they can on their own and make themselves available for any agency arranged training, but they still need an agency to work with them and offer it. Otherwise, you will continue to have those hams that want to be used and just show up anyway, while there will be an agency that just wants them to disappear like they never existed. The blade cuts in both directions.

I can't help but think that a small number of bad experiences, like the inept or super whackers, could leave an agency reluctant to have hams around. (Unaware that most hams just want to show up and do what is needed, with some proficiency.)

 

[ladn]

Yeah, I think the national average on 911 calls is something like 80% coming from cell phones, and it keeps increasing.
I keep a wired telephone at my house out of spite. Not sure how long I'll keep that up, but it's pretty dang reliable.

I keep my POTS line and associated hardware for exactly the same reasons. >95% of the calls to my home number are either hangups or telemarketers/junk. 911 calls go to the proper PSAP and the correct address shows on their screens, and POTS phones aren't subject to the same fragilities as cell or IP based systems.

 

[MTS2000des]

I can't help but think that a small number of bad experiences, like the inept or super whackers, could leave an agency reluctant to have hams around. (Unaware that most hams just want to show up and do what is needed, with some proficiency.)

Yup. Dealt with my fair share including a local ARES group that showed up at a hospital DEMANDING that THEY owned the hospital ham equipment. Fact is, the hospital purchased it for use by authorized persons that the hospital designates, including employees who happened to be hams (yes, the FCC even said this was allowable after some crybaby hams asked). None the less, the blowback is that their reputation as being pompous asses and persona non grata became sealed that day.

It doesn't help when a small few do things like contact government officials and come across like weirdo whackers and freaks and sadly this creates a broad brush that all hams are like those guys.

Clue to hams: don't be that guy.

 

[wa8pyr]

Yeah, I think the national average on 911 calls is something like 80% coming from cell phones, and it keeps increasing.
I keep a wired telephone at my house out of spite. Not sure how long I'll keep that up, but it's pretty dang reliable.

I would if Ma Bell didn't want to charge an arm and a leg; my Vonage service costs me a tad more than $20 a month for nationwide calling, no long distance charges, caller ID, do not disturb, voice mail and all sorts of little features. Last time I checked Ma Bell was charging $47/month for POTS with no features at all if you could even get it.

Agreed, but what we've been talking about is the lack of EmComm training for many hams. The 'emergency communications/when all else fails' thing gets talked about a lot, but it's rare to find hams that actually have any training.

I can't agree on the commitment thing. There's nothing in the license tests that has anything to do with emergency communications. There's no required training in emergency communications required to get a license. Being able to operate a radio doesn't make someone an emergency communicator.

True, but studying for the license and making that effort demonstrates a willingness that doesn't quite seem to be there with GMRS or CB. You're correct in that many hams don't get the EmComm training, but that's true of many organizations; everybody has their niche and pretty much stays with it. I don't have the EmComm training, but with all the training I have after 22 years as a public safety dispatcher, and another 12 years as a communications administrator and EMA professional, I figure I'm covered. I know quite a few other hams in a similar position; they're either cops or firefighters or in some other public safety-related position and have a pretty good grasp of EmComm basics.

As long as I've got enough people to get the job done I'm a happy camper; if I need more bodies for an event, I'll solicit recommendations from the guys who are EmComm certified for people who may not have that training but do have the right attitude, and fiddle the schedule so that I've got a fair number of EmComm types on hand at all times to work with the non-EmComm types.

Well, a 10-100 IS better than a 10-200. And I wouldn't mind at all if Sally Fields showed up.

That wouldn't bother me. Not one bit.

Seems like having a ham license doesn't mean much to some folks. Witness the clown shows and food fights on 75 meters.

Ham radio doesn't have a monopoly on that kind of nonsense; I've heard it on GMRS and CB (especially CB) often.

 

[wa8pyr]

Yup. Dealt with my fair share including a local ARES group that showed up at a hospital DEMANDING that THEY owned the hospital ham equipment. Fact is, the hospital purchased it for use by authorized persons that the hospital designates, including employees who happened to be hams (yes, the FCC even said this was allowable after some crybaby hams asked). None the less, the blowback is that their reputation as being pompous asses and persona non grata became sealed that day.

I know of a similar situation. An ARES group had gotten grant money to purchase a nice commercial-grade repeater; when the administering agency contacted them a year or so later to conduct a mandatory inspection as required by law, they were refused access by one individual (who failed to pass this on to the rest of the executive board). This went on for a couple of months, until the agency contacted the site owner, gained access and repossessed the equipment. Once they found out what had happened the ARES group kicked the miscreant out, but it still took awhile to overcome the black eye his actions gave them. It also cost them a sizable chunk of money to replace the lost repeater.

Most hams are pretty good about it, but there's always that one self-important jackass (usually a whacker) who is too stupid or pigheaded to realize that his actions do more harm than good.

 

[mmckenna]

Most hams are pretty good about it, but there's always that one self-important jackass (usually a whacker) who is too stupid or pigheaded to realize that his actions do more harm than good.

I think that pretty much sums up this entire thread in one sentence.

 

[scanmanmi]

My daughter just bought a Chevy and it lists "emergency communications" as an included option. Probably refers to OnStar.

 

[k6cpo]

I'm really getting tired of this constant arguing about "emergency communications" in amateur radio. It seems that most of the derogatory comments come from people that have likely never had anything to do with ARES, RACES, the Red Cross, REACT or any of the other organizations involved in public service communications. They just have no clue about what really goes on in these organizations. If you've never done it, keep your mouth shut.

 

[AI7PM]

I'm really getting tired of this constant arguing about "emergency communications" in amateur radio. It seems that most of the derogatory comments come from people that have likely never had anything to do with ARES, RACES, the Red Cross, REACT or any of the other organizations involved in public service communications. They just have no clue about what really goes on in these organizations. If you've never done it, keep your mouth shut.

On the other hand, and, I've served in ARES, RACES, and a county EOC group, much of the criticism has been earned, and continues to be. Many who have not served may have had the desire to, but were thwarted by some EC who was threatened by them having more real mojo than him. Many may have been interested, then were exposed to the wackers in a group with their 8 magnetic car signs and ten dollar Wal-Mart flashing lights irritating people. Some may have considered it, then found out their EMA had been harassed by the group or EC for building access, govermnet purchase of radios, and official ID cards, with no real work earning such privilege. Maybe some were interested, then one day in a cafe saw a few guys come in wearing their nuclear green vests adorned with 29 league badges and two HTs each blaring police calls from their belts, and running their mouths at an equally loud volume in search of attention. Who woud want to be associated with that, or have that be the public impression of their hobby?

I'll guess you have had the pleasure of serving in a group that none of the above applies to. If so, excellent! I've seen both the good, legitimate, and the ugly. If you've served in the good I can see you "really getting tired" of the noise. That being said, coming off with "If you've never done it, keep your mouth shut", assumes they never tried. Perhaps they did join then found it disheartening, so offer their opinion and observation. Who are you to tell them to shut up?

 

[MTS2000des]

TYFYS...seriously. ARES/RACES/HAM radio isn't the military, police, fire or EMS. The minute everyone figures that out and moves onto things that are relevant to being "technical experts" versus Randy Rescue, the better off the amateur radio service will be for future generations of hams.

 

[k6cpo]

On the other hand, and, I've served in ARES, RACES, and a county EOC group, much of the criticism has been earned, and continues to be. Many who have not served may have had the desire to, but were thwarted by some EC who was threatened by them having more real mojo than him. Many may have been interested, then were exposed to the wackers in a group with their 8 magnetic car signs and ten dollar Wal-Mart flashing lights irritating people. Some may have considered it, then found out their EMA had been harassed by the group or EC for building access, govermnet purchase of radios, and official ID cards, with no real work earning such privilege. Maybe some were interested, then one day in a cafe saw a few guys come in wearing their nuclear green vests adorned with 29 league badges and two HTs each blaring police calls from their belts, and running their mouths at an equally loud volume in search of attention. Who woud want to be associated with that, or have that be the public impression of their hobby?

I'll guess you have had the pleasure of serving in a group that none of the above applies to. If so, excellent! I've seen both the good, legitimate, and the ugly. If you've served in the good I can see you "really getting tired" of the noise. That being said, coming off with "If you've never done it, keep your mouth shut", assumes they never tried. Perhaps they did join then found it disheartening, so offer their opinion and observation. Who are you to tell them to shut up?

Our local ARES group is run by a number of really good people, and the rest of the membership is dedicated to doing the best job they can. Our mission is to support the County Health and Human Services Agency by providing back-up communications for the county hospital system. We have been accepted to the point we can even place operators in the local Naval Hospital and a Navy Hospital Ship has joined our nets. We are all ICS and NIMS trained and get periodic HIPAA refresher training as well. We also assist the US Marine Corps at the annual airshow held here. We are deployed into the crowd as additional "boots on the ground," assisting with lost children (and adults,) and observing for additional difficulties among the spectators.

There are also those of who have chosen to take further training in various aspects of ICS and NIMS. Because I had some journalistic experience, I was appointed the Public information Officer of our ARES group. In keeping with that, I enrolled in sufficient courses to earn myself a Public Information Officer Specialist Certificate from the California Office of Emergency Services.

It's unfortunate there are people within the amateur radio community that behave like you describe and I think some of the blame has to rest with the league. I think they pushed the "If all else fails..." mantra too hard without taking a good hard look at the consequences and they were too slow to adapt to the coming of ICS/NIMS. It's only in the last couple of years the ARRL has embraced the idea of task books for ARES.

This "tunnel vision" on the part of the league has to have had an effect on how individual ARES groups and other ham radio communications groups conducted themselves. And the league was amiss in not stepping in to correct difficulties within the individual ARES organizations. I still encounter the "we don't need no stinkin' ICS courses" attitude, but, fortunately, these people are few and far between. I think things are going to gett better within the communications groups and the numbers of people like you describe are going to diminish.

 

[mmckenna]

I think things are going to gett better within the communications groups and the numbers of people like you describe are going to diminish.

I hope so.
ARRL is to blame for so much of this. The "when all else fails", phony "MARS/CAP" mods, etc. Add in badges, car magnets, stickers, flashing lights, and it just sort of spirals...

I have a retired co-worker that became very active with his local group. They've done some good work in the fires and work closely with the county. His team helped with a lot of evacuations in his area when one of the larger fires swept through.
Biggest benefit they've provided has been a large mesh network linking various parts of the county, and added remote control high resolution cameras to allow monitoring for fire activity.

There are absolutely some good groups out there, no doubt about that. But there are a lot of whackers and generally useless individuals that only qualifications consist of owning a hand held radio. Those sorts need to be either flushed out or trained up. No one needs some random dude with a Baofeng getting in the way.