Why is ham radio not P-25?

[beischel]

With public safety mostly adopting P-25 and the US military moving toward having P-25 capable equipment, why has ham radio not done the same? DMR seems to be the most popular, with D-star, fusion and some other scattered technologies here and there.

One of our missions in ham radio is to be the backup communications in times of national disaster, seems like we should be on P-25 like our public safety partners.

Public safety will never interact with ham radio at the radio level. No need to use P25. I had several police/fire people firmly state they do not want ANY ham radio use on their frequencies at time of disaster or any other time.

This argument has been put out there before many times.

After listening to weather nets, I completely agree with the police/fire officials.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

What does P25 do that DMR T3 doesn’t do?


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With DMR trunking, every site of interest and every channel at the site has to be programmed into the radio according to it's numbered alias. Add capacity to a site, every subscriber utilizing the site has to be reprogrammed to include that newly added resource or else the controller may potentially assign that resource to a radio which has no definition of that particular channel causing an error. If one adds a site, the radio may recognize there is a new adjacent site to the site currently registered at but again has no definition of the site and is incapable of using said site.

With P25 trunking, everything is driven by the data put forth by the control channel and the band plan (which is also put forth by the control channel). Channels are referred to in terms of channel ID and channel number which is calculated from the base frequency given the channel width in the band plan. The only thing the subscriber ever has to know is the initial control channel to attempt to register and even that can be circumvented using spectrum wide scanning (radio performs a spectrum search according to it's bandplan looking for a matching SID and WACN, once found it'll attempt to register). The control channel announces adjacent sites with their active control channels (channel ID, channel number format) and radios can simply roam to the next site given that information. If you add a site, the radio will self adapt. If you add a channel, the radio doesn't care because it will simply go where the control channel tells it to go.

TLDR; DMR Tier III the radios hold the database regarding what sites have what channels available so when system changes are made, the radio's programming needs to be updated. P25 trunking, the system holds that database so the radios actually need very little programming and can adapt to system changes without needing to be reprogrammed.

 

[KK4JUG]

I'll play along with an answer (well my opinion) to the original question, as well as border line response that may earn a "lock" on the thread... Here goes!!!!!!

Ham Radio IS P25, it's also DMR, DSTAR, Fusion, NXDN, FM, AM, SSB, CW, AX.25, Pactor 1-4, Olivia, FT-8 (and a plethora of other PSK / MSK modes) plus many others that I didn't include.
One might say it boils down to what this line from Wikipedia says "Amateur radio (also called ham radio) describes the use of radio frequency spectrum for purposes of non-commercial exchange of messages, wireless experimentation, self-training, private recreation, radiosport, contesting, and emergency communication."....I'll save the parenthetical documentation for another time as the Wiki link as plenty to spare.....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur_radio.

Well, okay. That's the final authority.....or not.

 

[KC3ECJ]

I think it still would have taken off. I own CSI, but would have invested in Hytera or Motorola if CSI had not gotten into the game.

It would have kept the code plug beggars out, frankly that would not bother me any. Those that invest in quality gear seem to be more into actually learning how to program their radios, rather than begging for a pre-made code plug.

I have been doing this hobby for a long time. It seems since cheap DMR radios and the garbage Chinese crap radios have attracted a type of operator that refuses to try and learn how to do anything for themselves. Same with looking for info. Begs for it rather than using google. It makes elmering people really difficult. They just want the answer, not what it takes to discover it.

It’s frustrating. When I got into this hobby windows was still at 3.11, and the internet was not mainstream yet. I had to learn it through my Elmer’s, two of which are now SK, but super patient that were willing to teach what they knew.

I love teaching new hams. I have zero patience for those that want things given to them with out putting in any effort to learn.


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Yeah I don't get the crowd that just wants to appliance operate, have somebody make a codeplug for them, just so they could use their radio 5 feet away from a hotspot to talk voip to somebody else sitting 5 feet away from their hotspot.

 

[KC3ECJ]

Public safety will never interact with ham radio at the radio level. No need to use P25. I had several police/fire people firmly state they do not want ANY ham radio use on their frequencies at time of disaster or any other time.

This argument has been put out there before many times.

After listening to weather nets, I completely agree with the police/fire officials.

Couldn't even get people on the radio around here when there was a tornado.

 

[N4KVE]

Yeah I don't get the crowd that just wants to appliance operate, have somebody make a codeplug for them, just so they could use their radio 5 feet away from a hotspot to talk voip to somebody else sitting 5 feet away from their hotspot.

Where is the sense of accomplishment in that? Might as well use Skype. Is this the future of ham radio? Talking 5 feet to a box?

 

[DaveNF2G]

You mean like talking a half-mile to a box on a hill or tall building?

 

[N4KVE]

You mean like talking a half-mile to a box on a hill or tall building?

Some of us talk 25 + miles to get into that box. I know when I drive to Miami, I'm talking 62 miles into that box. Using this antenna. https://www.lairdtech.com/products/trab4503
There is still a sense of accomplishment in that.

 

[clanusb]

I use P25 because to me, it sounds the best of all the digital modes. I just wish it were more popular here where I live. But I am slowly trying to push and expose people towards it.
Yes the cost can be up there, but its no different than those of us who choose to gravitate towards any part of this hobby. Those who do HF can easily spend just as much on equipment. So thats not a valid argument. Also, there are more manufacturers who produce P25 equipment besides Motorola, so all the Moto bashing is just rediculous. Aren’t we all here to learn and support each other?
This is seriously getting to be like highschool with all the clicks and posses who hate each other for no reason. Everyone has their opinions, everyone has their reasonings for what they like and dont like. Either yure interested in P25, or you arent. If you are, great, lets try and expand. If you arent, good day and stop trying to hamper those of us who have an interest.

Also. I guess I’m a whacker because I have the same style radios that my agency uses. ��

 

[N4GIX]

Where is the sense of accomplishment in that? Might as well use Skype. Is this the future of ham radio? Talking 5 feet to a box?

Well, I'm usually only about 2' from my jumboSPOT, but with the the addition of a cellular router I'm able to use DMR from my car (or anywhere else) when there is no repeater handy...

Well, actually I could also use D-Star, YSF, or P25 through my jumboSPOT if I had the equipment available... :lol:

 

[N4KVE]

Bummer. There are 5 DMR repeaters within 10 miles of me. Those devices are not necessary around here.

 

[N4GIX]

I actually have four within range of my home and mobile, two of which I can work easily with my handhelds. Three are UHF and the fourth is VHF. Together they are connected to three different networks: DMR-MARC, Brandmeister, and an nine-system independent NW Indiana network.

All of my DMR equipment is programmed to work with all DMR repeaters in Indiana, Illinois, Ohio, Kentucky, Michigan and Wisconsin. So, I've got lots of options when travelling in any of those states.

However, when I am not in those area, I don't have to bother myself to lookup and add new repeaters into my equipment, but still have access via the jumboSPOT to any and all TGs I have in my jumboSPOT Zone(s). Obviously I cannot talk to anyone on any repeater's Local TG.

 

[AK9R]

I guess you guys missed it a few posts back when I said that the original question was why isn't P25 more commonly used in amateur radio. Let's stay on topic. How you use DMR in your local area is not on topic for this thread.

 

[com501]

Although superior in audio quality, the lack of linking protocols that are easily usable are lacking in P25, whereas when DMR got going, AND PROMOTED BY MARC (The Motorola Amatuer Radio Club) the promoting factor was the ease of linking.

P25 linking has always been more of a problem, and very few people will pay 10 kilobucks for a repeater and infrastructure.

 

[Kb2Jpd]

With public safety mostly adopting P-25 and the US military moving toward having P-25 capable equipment, why has ham radio not done the same? DMR seems to be the most popular, with D-star, fusion and some other scattered technologies here and there.



One of our missions in ham radio is to be the backup communications in times of national disaster, seems like we should be on P-25 like our public safety partners.

No ham radio manufacturers in the United States make public safety communication gear.

P-25 is a protocol and standard uncommon in the world telecommunications market.

If you want that to change, become a manufacturer in open hardware and open software compatible with all not just P25.


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[N4KVE]

Although superior in audio quality, the lack of linking protocols that are easily usable are lacking in P25, whereas when DMR got going, AND PROMOTED BY MARC (The Motorola Amatuer Radio Club) the promoting factor was the ease of linking.

P25 linking has always been more of a problem, and very few people will pay 10 kilobucks for a repeater and infrastructure.

And while this is true, many of us don't care to talk to people around the world on a HT. That what HF is for. We like to use P25 to chat with the local guys we know on the way to, or from work. My friend's pre owned Quantar P25 repeater was half the price of a pre owned DMR repeater.

 

[AK9R]

No ham radio manufacturers in the United States make public safety communication gear.

How many ham radio manufacturers are there in the U.S.? Three that I can think of: Elecraft, Flex Radio, and Ten-Tec. To the best of my knowledge, all three are primarily HF radio manufacturers.

If your comment was referring to Icom, Kenwood, and Yaesu, which are Japanese companies doing business in the U.S., two of them, Icom and Kenwood, make "public safety communication gear". They even make P25 radios, too.

 

[AI7PM]

Public safety will never interact with ham radio at the radio level. No need to use P25. I had several police/fire people firmly state they do not want ANY ham radio use on their frequencies at time of disaster or any other time.

This argument has been put out there before many times.

After listening to weather nets, I completely agree with the police/fire officials.

There are exceptions and those willing to train, but sadly few and far between that will give up the jargon and hamesqe ways.

 

[KK4JUG]

There are exceptions and those willing to train, but sadly few and far between that will give up the jargon and hamesqe ways.

How true! I spent 30+ years as a cop and you have no idea how difficult it was to refrain from saying "10-4" on the ham radio.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

Although superior in audio quality, the lack of linking protocols that are easily usable are lacking in P25, whereas when DMR got going, AND PROMOTED BY MARC (The Motorola Amatuer Radio Club) the promoting factor was the ease of linking.

P25 linking has always been more of a problem, and very few people will pay 10 kilobucks for a repeater and infrastructure.

Not really. Quantars for example were designed to be linked via wireline or shotgun/link repeaters just like their predecessors. Simoco/JVC Kenwood (EF Johnson)/RF Technology (Icom)/Tait/Etherstack all offer P25 linking solutions transported over SIP and other IP protocols without requiring additional system infrastructure and seeing how some of those solutions have been available for 5-10 years now they can potentially be found in the surplus/used market.

But traditional RF based link networks have been possible since the Quantar was introduced nearly 20 years ago. Actually, one of my current customers has had a shotgun linked Quantar arrangement (Quantar repeater tied to a Quantar station to link to a remote Quantar) running for over a decade now and it's still used as a backup to their multi-site trunking system.

No ham radio manufacturers in the United States make public safety communication gear.

Flex makes commercial HF equipment aimed at the public safety/military markets though mainly for receive purposes.

P-25 is a protocol and standard uncommon in the world telecommunications market.

As of 2011...

• Afganistan
• Algeria
• Angolia
• Antigua and Barbuda
• Argentina
• Australia (GME, Codan, RF Technology, Etherstack, worth noting all of Simoco's P25 development is handled out of Australia as well)
• Austria
• Azerbaijan
• Bahamas
• Bahrain
• Bangladesh
• Barbados
• Bermuda
• Botswana
• Brazil
• Brunei
• Canada
• Chile
• China
• Colombia
• Costa Rica
• Czech Republic
• Denmark
• Ecuador
• Egypt
• El Salvador
• Eritrea
• Fiji
• Finland
• France
• Germany
• Guam
• Guatemala
• India
• Indonesia
• Iraq
• Ireland
• Israel
• Italy
• Jamaica
• Japan (Kenwood, Icom)
• Kazakhstan
• Kenya
• Kuwait
• Laos
• Latvia
• Lebanon
• Luxembourg
• Malaysia
• Mexico
• Morocco
• Nepal
• New Zealand (Tait)
• Nigeria
• Pakistan
• Panama
• Papua New Guinea
• Paraguay
• Peru
• Phillippines
• Poland
• Puerto Rico
• Russia
• Saudi Arabia
• Singapore
• Slovenia
• South Korea
• Spain
• Sri Lanka
• Sweden
• Switzerland
• Taiwan
• Thailand
• Trinidad and Tobago
• Tunisia
• Turkey (Aselsan though most know their products relabeled by Midland)
• United Kingdom (Simoco)
• United States (EF Johnson, Motorola, Harris)
• UAE
• Venezuela
• Vietnam
• Zimbabawe
  

...all have P25 systems deployed in some form or another. That's representation from every populated continent in the world and if you'll also note, manufacturers are represented by their country of origin as well. While it is a North American standard for Public Safety application, it is in use all over the world.

Also keep in mind, MMDVM's P25 support development was not handled in North America but spearheaded out of Europe (I have the email's to prove it).