Yaesu FT1DR

[MTS2000des]

The link you posted is a club that exists "only for the operation of the repeater", and nothing more. They exist on a tower owned by the City of West Palm Beach and have requisite approval letters. The West Palm Beach ARC coordinates a majority of the public service events in the County and does not have any management responsibilities of this repeater.

If you re-read closely I said that they "could of licensed in Part 90" and gave the back-up with using DMR as not being a proprietary technology should Yaesu call Fusion a bust and further decides not to manufacture or support anymore. I never said that they couldn't or were in violation, but others sure gave some very compelling arguments.

Okay, so just to clarify, you don't have a problem with the use of amateur radio for public service use- and in fact, your agency does engage in limited use of amateur radio just as the OP's organization allegedly does?

As far as the "compelling arguments" others have made, are you, as a system manager and licensed radio amateur, at all concerned with the use of PBC facilities to support amateur radio use in this fashion that, according to those constituents making said argument, may be a violation of FCC part 97.113?

I am just trying to clarify what side of the fence you sit on.

As far as their selection of System Fusion, all valid points- however, comparing DMR offerings to part 90 is apples to oranges. DMR/MotoTRBO are single band subscriber units and infrastructure, are considerably more expensive, and there are things that don't exist with HAM specific digital formats (System Fusion and D-Star) such as programming software licensing cost, more expensive programming cables, the lack of manufacturer supported FPP, no VFO and of course SINGLE band only.

System Fusion radios are dual band, dual mode, software is free, programming cables are dirt cheap, and the system itself allows NETWORK dual mode traffic, something MotoTRBO does not support.

But personally, I would have opted for MotoTRBO myself, TDMA offers more capacity per repeater, and it works very well with weak signals. I use it everyday for my personal HAM enjoyment.

 

[SARCommCoord]

The link you posted is a club that exists "only for the operation of the repeater", and nothing more. They exist on a tower owned by the City of West Palm Beach (not the County) and have requisite approval letters. The West Palm Beach ARC coordinates a majority of the public service events in the County and does not have any management responsibilities of this repeater.

If you re-read closely I said that they "could of licensed in Part 90" and gave the back-up with using DMR as not being a proprietary technology should Yaesu call Fusion a bust and further decides not to manufacture or support anymore. I never said that they couldn't or were in violation, but others sure gave some very compelling arguments.

And I gave numerous websites of SAR agencies (both private and government) that operate with amateur radio, as well as ARES groups that assist them. May I ask where everyone here got their law degrees ? And what qualifications they have to interpret statutes and codes and accuse one of violations ?
Because the attorneys I know seem to think different.

 

[MTS2000des]

Good relevant reading, from the FCC perspective:

Topic 13: Amateur Radio Service Support to Public Safety Communications

Amateur Radio Services

https://apps.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-10-124A1.pdf

 

[SARCommCoord]

Good relevant reading, from the FCC perspective:

Topic 13: Amateur Radio Service Support to Public Safety Communications

Amateur Radio Services

https://apps.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-10-124A1.pdf

One of the biggest things we train for is disasters ( we do rubble pile searches and USAR with the K9s). Also I like how it says " communications intended to protect life and property". Great find !

 

[rapidcharger]

Please keep us updated on the new system fusion system.
It sounds like a good choice for your needs. That's one I haven't tried yet personally.

 

[N4DES]

Okay, so just to clarify, you don't have a problem with the use of amateur radio for public service use- and in fact, your agency does engage in limited use of amateur radio just as the OP's organization allegedly does?

As far as the "compelling arguments" others have made, are you, as a system manager and licensed radio amateur, at all concerned with the use of PBC facilities to support amateur radio use in this fashion that, according to those constituents making said argument, may be a violation of FCC part 97.113?

I am just trying to clarify what side of the fence you sit on.

As far as their selection of System Fusion, all valid points- however, comparing DMR offerings to part 90 is apples to oranges. DMR/MotoTRBO are single band subscriber units and infrastructure, are considerably more expensive, and there are things that don't exist with HAM specific digital formats (System Fusion and D-Star) such as programming software licensing cost, more expensive programming cables, the lack of manufacturer supported FPP, no VFO and of course SINGLE band only.

System Fusion radios are dual band, dual mode, software is free, programming cables are dirt cheap, and the system itself allows NETWORK dual mode traffic, something MotoTRBO does not support.

But personally, I would have opted for MotoTRBO myself, TDMA offers more capacity per repeater, and it works very well with weak signals. I use it everyday for my personal HAM enjoyment.

I never once said in any of these posts that I have a problem with a licensed individual providing public service on Part 97 amateur frequencies nor did I directly post any FCC Rules. Questionable rule violations were posted by others with their direct comments on prior posts. I only clarified that the HIPAA comment was incorrect and the assumed requirement to utilize secured communications.

Our County Emergency Mgt. Division has an MOU with ARES and my section only provides the maintenance to the County owned hardware that supports their mission. My section, including myself, have never utilized AR for our missions at all as we have our own Part 90 back-ups in place.

As to the comparison with DMR hardware and digital amateur, in a number of cases the DMR equipment is cheaper than digital amateur gear and it works better too. Yes you can't beat the improved capacity with the 2 slots. I really enjoy it as well.

As I'm sure you know, licensing in Part 90 allows for anyone in the organization, FCC licensed or not, the ability to utilize the comms equipment. Isolating themselves in Part 97 limits their volunteer pool by requiring a license to communicate and I apologize for not explaining that enough to make that point prior. There should be no more mixed apples and oranges.

 

[kc4wai]

Not a bad idea at all

I for one applaud you and your organization for utilizing this technology. It is much more affordable and from personal experience I can honestly say Yaesu doesn't build garbage. As a member of both EMS and the fire service,I have utilized some of Yaesu's analog radios in the past not only for ham, but for monitoring (not talking) on public safety frequencies. Yes, I do carry a Minitor IV pager for fire, but I do still use my FT60 to monitor the open traffic countywide. In fact, I've carried my FT60 on calls and on the ambulance as a back-up radio (trunking systems do sometimes fail)...so from a durability factor, I can honestly say Yaesu is an excellent choice

I'd like to see more public safety organizations integrate amateur radio as a secondary means of communications. I'd like to get some of the guys in my dept more into radio comms. I would like to hear more about how well this digital format works for SAR...but again it is a wise selection in that the hardware itself is not cost-prohibitive for a public safety volunteer organization.

As for the haters....the 'internet warriors' and the 'ham radio police', who cares. When someone gets behind a futile made-up 'federal case' and tells me "you can't do that" or whatever, I simply tell them "okay...come arrest me." Needless to say, that has never happened. Funny enough, I was a ham and a radio enthusiast long before I went to school to become an Advanced-EMT...and I am proud to be both. I work in a busy 911 system and use a radio all day, but I still love radio as a hobby. Best of luck to you and your team and stay safe brother.

 

[AK9R]

Anyway,,, the FT1DR will do APRS and digital at the same time. VFO B APRS and VFO A Run digital comms.

Thanks for the info. Information about these radios and this system seems to be trickling out of Yaesu. I will have to take a look at the documents you mentioned.

 

[AK9R]

So, we're clear. I'm one of the moderators here in the RadioReference Amateur Radio forums. I've been on the road the past couple of days, so I haven't been able to follow this thread closely. I now have some time to sit in front of the computer and I have several comments which I will thread into posts you've made.

If you have nothing nice to say, dont say it at all.

While not spelled out in the Forum Rules using those words, that's a good rule of thumb...on both sides of a discussion. More on this later.

The point of this forum post was to give a review of a new radio.

But, you haven't done that. In fact, since you don't yet have all the equipment, you can't do that. You simply announced that your group had elected to purchase a new, un-tried, still-in-development amateur radio digital voice system.

I make those points because there's a lot of skepticism in amateur radio circles about Yaesu's System Fusion. Information about this system has been slow to come out of Yaesu. Yaesu showed the FT-1DR handheld at the Dayton Hamvention over a year ago, but the people at the Yaesu booth could not talk intelligently about how the system worked. Many hams are very technical and want to know the details, but Yaesu had nothing to offer them. Then, after Dayton, Yaesu sent their executive vice president, a self-admitted non-technical guy, to the ARRL/TAPR Digital Communications Convention, a gathering of very technical hams, to talk about the system. You can watch the video of that presentation here. In my opinion, this is just another glaring example of the mis-steps Yaesu has made with regard to this system.

I will admit that I'm not a fan of any amateur radio digital voice system unless it offers something that we can't do using analog voice. What I, and many other hams, find more troubling, though, is the proliferation of non-compatible digital voice systems. Yaesu has only fueled that fire by coming out with Yet Another Digital Voice System.

We have freedom of speech...

The 1st Amendment to the U.S. Constitution only guarantees freedom of expression by prohibiting Congress from restricting the press or the rights of individuals to speak freely. On the other hand, this forum is run by a private corporation, not the U.S. government. Everyone in these forums is subject to the forum's rules and those rules may restrict the forum users' "freedom of speech".

...I am requesting this thread to be closed.

You sent me two PMs asking that the thread be closed. I have elected to ignore those requests because I think the discussion is worthwhile. I did delete one post that I considered non-contributory to the conversation. However, sending a PM to a moderator about a thread is not really the way to do it. If you, or anyone, has a problem with a thread, you should use the Report Post function. In the blue-gray bar above every forum post is a white triangle icon with a red outline and a black exclamation point. If you click that icon and fill out the form, your report will be brought to the attention of every moderator so that one of them can address your concern. If you just PM one moderator, you are dependent on that moderator seeing your PM and acting on it.

And even though my post doesnt reflect my teams views in any way, I have to defend myself and the teams image because of cyber bullies

Here's a tip: Don't respond to every negative post. That will only fuel the fire. Stick to the high road, address legitimate questions and concerns in a positive manner, but don't lash back at everyone who disagrees with you.

 

[n9upc]

I have been reading this post and I would like to comment on a few things, in particular the main purpose of this post:

I am glad to hear that a search and rescue group has been able to get all the command staff trained in amateur radio. Not only does this offer a huge part of interoperability as they can now talk on both public safety and amateur bands in a true call out.

Second, if you are going to spend that much money on radios and repeaters one would assume that you did some research. By your posts I have seen that you have done some testing and I am glad that it has worked out for you. (On a side note on another post here I have found that the deviation is really the main difference in fusion vs P25 so it should preform well just like public safety modulation.)

Third, as being a trained as a Com-L, Com-T, and AUXCOMM as well as working with public safety communications systems I have learned one thing. The only standard out there is that there is no standard. While yes public safety is suppose to use P25 as a standard for public safety look how MANY different agencies do not use it. Examples are OpenSky, DMR, dPMR, and now even some experimenting with Tetra or MPT1327 (I can not remember which one.) Either way the only confirmed mode of true interoperability is analog voice.

Finally, as being a comm tech with the SAR team (as well as K9 handler, tracker, and team leader) you must go with what works for your groups mission critical response. In this case I present the question that if a SAR group purchases Motorola, Vertex, Harris, Kenwood, etc... that makes them a better team. So if they purchase the Kenwoods that are meant for business purposes and not the PS line that is still ok? I have seen some amateur radios as of recent that are built to better spec than some radios meant for business or even PS purposes.

It is good for people to have opinions and express their own views on a topic. However, one thing I have seen in the radio world over the last 20 years is the branding on someones back side. I have seen people come to county board meetings and give the "first responders lives are at stake with the current radio system," all because the radio does not have batwings ( /\/\ ) plastered on the radio.

Now I am not trying to turn this into a manufacturer war thread, I am simply pointing out the fact that what works for one department might be the total opposite and backwards way to do things for another department. So to the OP please continue to give us reports on how the Fusion system works for you and what features and benefits it has in these circumstances. Good luck and I will be checking back for updates.

 

[kk4tjy]

What really intrigues me about this radio is it seems to include the APRS features of a Kenwood TH-D72A or VX-8DR in a smaller, rugged package.

Is my assumption correct that I could send position reports, APRS messages, etc., and effectively ignore the digital side, without giving up any of the features of the Kenwood or VX-8DR?

This might be just the right radio for throwing in a backpack for emergency comms when outside cell range, or to send a quick "all is well" email to my non-ham wife when I'm out in the woods with the kids.

Thanks!

 

[d99007]

Please post your experience with FT1DR

I have been reading this post and I am still very interested to hear OP experience with FT1DR radio. I am also looking at purchasing this model.

Even though FT1DR used Yaesu proprietary digital format, it is packed with other features like GPS, APRS, additional SD memory,.. that might be worth considering.

All this comes in addition to a decent analog radio, according to specs (16uV sensitivity UHF/VHF) and similar price point like older radios.

I am very interested to hear more about real-life performance of FT1DR radios compared to what was available before from Yaesu/Kenwod. ICOM D-Star digital is cool but overpriced imho.

 

[SARCommCoord]

Yes, the radio can send and receive APRS and totally ignore digital. You can also do APRS and Digital. One of the biggest features we have used during our trainings is the ability to mark a waypoint, and find your way back using the radio.

The digital has worked extremely well, and on simplex, have still been able to hear others at a distance of over 2 miles.

We are currently in the process of purchasing the Fusion Repeater System, and will be using this system as our own private repeater for our SAR team.

Any other questions feel free to ask

 

[n4yek]

Are you going to use this system within the amateur radio allocated frequencies or outside of it?

 

[SARCommCoord]

Within amateur radio band

 

[n4yek]

Within amateur radio band

Have fun, I hope it works out well for you.

 

[SARCommCoord]

Ok all, heres the most recent update.

We have purchased a 40 foot portable tower to use with our FT 400DR Base radio. We are awaiting approval from the board before we purchase the repeater. We have had multiple training operations recently where we set up our command post and utilized the FT1DR in the field. We have played around with the group function as well as the automatic mode selection (FM, Digital). Our team (and the board) are impressed with the purchase. Buying radios was a 3 year process, as we could not decide what to agree upon, until now. With the group function on the radios, using callsigns/tactical callsigns, we are able to see who is transmitting as well as the distance from each individual user and the command post. The automatic mode selection is great especially if someone with an analog radio in the field keys up, the radio will automatically switch to FM modulation and transmit in FM. Our SAR software allows us to monitor and track APRS in the field, and since the FT1DR also does APRS, it makes my job easier. The farthest distance we have gone using HT and mobile radios is 2.2 miles, digital, with no loss in signal (we are primarily a wilderness search and rescue team). Any questions, feel free to ask.

 

[hitechRadio]

New Firmware and DSP update available on Yaesu's website.

 

[MTS2000des]

Thanks for taking the time follow up.
System Fusion around me is just getting going in Georgia. There is are a couple of high site repeaters that have been getting alot of use lately.

The owner of one of them has several FTM-400's and has had some issues with PA failures.

 

[d99007]

Battery life

Thanks for sharing your experiences Eric.

How is FT1DR battery life if you leave GPS turned on, how long does it last? Do you have the standard or extended 1800mAh battery?

If you have experience with other older Yaesu HT's, can you comment if Yaesu perhaps improved scanning speed on FT1DR or it is pretty much same as older units.