Broadcastify Receives Cease and Desist from Terre Haute, IN City Attorney

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W8RMH

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Grove City, OH (A Bearcat not a Buckeye)
People have listened to police radio since the 1930s. I am a former LEO with over 40 years in public safety. I can not count the number of times a scanner listener came to my aid or provided valuable information because they became aware of a situation they heard on a scanner. I never once experienced a safety issue or found a perpetrator in possession of a working scanner which aided them in their commission of a crime.
 

allend

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Long Beach, CA
That will never happen, its a very profitable endeavor. It is a Hobby for some, a business for others. I am curious to see how this pans out, I am not sure they have a legal avenue to block the public streaming.

My suspicion is they do not want to encrypt the talkgroup they just want to stop the public rebroadcast. I do suspect if thier hands are forced they will just encrypt the talkgroup. It is a cheaper and quicker solution although not the one they want since they could have just done it.

Absolutely. This city or town just wanted to stop the public rebroadcast of their police dispatch talkgroup over the internet worldwide. Keep in mind we live in our own little bubbles each day here in the US. These radio broadcast are transmitted around the whole earth that is 25K miles around. Keep that in mind. That is so huge that really we can't wrap our minds around it.

Actually the city attorney was playing nice at first. The police chief could of just said nope don't send the letter, let me get on the phone with the state radio administrator and just flip the switch on the PD Dispatch Talkgroup to Secure and that would of been done on a dime.

Take this into account in Pomona California on the ICIS trunking system. All of the PD comms were Encrypted except for Pomona PD 1 dispatch that has been in the clear for a long time now. A few months ago without any warning PD 1 Dispatch is not encrypted. Now all of Pomona PD is Encrypted.

See the story line happening in Southern California now. The Cities and Counties are ruthless and don't care about us citizens. They are Encrypting major cities and counties that are bigger than the state of Rhode Island and Encrypting everything from Public Works to the Dog Catchers and I mean a 100 percent of everything. Do I agree, absolutely not. It's painful and we all on the west coast are feeling the end sometime near within the next 5 to 10 years.

If you read LA forums Orange County CA is already putting into the meeting and agenda notes that they want to Encrypt all of Fire comms too. LE has been gone to encryption 15 years ago.

It's happening people, its no joke and its completely painful for us law abiding citizens. We are all feeling this pain and it sucks big time. It's scary and dark times these days we are living in.
 

ntstar4

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Feb 12, 2005
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Lilburn GA
I use to stream 4 small city police until it was encrypted and actually had one of them tell me they used my feed in some of their cases. I do miss it. In todays world I do see how officer safety could be an issue and I would agree that it should not be real time. Even the routine traffic stops turn bad.
 

Monaco

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Chicago
According to FBI stats, when my Dad came on the police force in 1970 there were 100 US officers killed that year as the result of crime. That jumped to 134 in 1973. The annual totals decreased slowly but steadily throughout the 70s, 80s, and 90s. By the 2000s, those annual totals began to hover around 50. The first iPhone was released in the middle of 2007 and the scanner app was born. Since that time, we've continued see much lower statistics of police officers killed by crime than during the traditional radio scanner years.

US officers killed as the result of crime:
2000 51
2001 70
2002 56
2003 52
2004 57
2005 55
2006 48
2007 58
2008 41
2009 48
2010 56
2011 72
2012 49
2013 27
2014 51
2015 46
Source: US police shootings: How many die each year? - BBC News

There are plenty of talk groups that deserve to be encrypted. But the routine patrol channels should never be. Many on the Radio Reference forum feel that if Terre Haute was to encrypt their dispatch channel that they would "win" the war. Is that really winning? Is cutting off access to real-time public safety information traditionally available to the public the message that police departments really want to send right now?

To address the social media aspect. Most people would probably prefer that if a loved one were involved in a tragedy that they would be tracked down and notified through another loved one or an authority who would accurately inform them about the situation. But, if someone close to me were in peril, I truly would not care how I found out as long as it was sooner than later. Perhaps there are some people who can't properly process crisis information and act appropriately, but should the government take steps to slow the flow of information in an effort to protect that segment of society at the expense of all the others?

An example, on Sunday at 5:15 PM there was a water main break near my brother's family's house during a snow storm. I heard about it from a neighboring town on my scanner when police were called to assist traffic around the flooding hazard. I called my brother's house as they were rapidly losing pressure and it went out shortly thereafter. They were able to call around and inform all their neighbors well before the boil order notices were distributed and just over two hours before the village posted it on their Facebook page. Their information phone tree helped to alleviate a lot of concern, all because of open police patrol communications.

With regards to the legality of streaming, the FCC doesn't define streaming as an actual "broadcast", so the technical aspect preventing public safety transmissions from being rebroadcast is moot. Radio Reference cites that "since all of our feed broadcasts and archives are not encrypted, and are public safety (Part 90 FCC Licenses), marine (ships), aircraft, or amateur radio -- disclosure of these communications is legal and they can be intercepted and divulged, since all of these communications are considered by law to be readily accessible to the general public and specifically authorized by Chapter 119, Title 18 § 2511."
Source: http://forums.radioreference.com/1313618-post1.html

Encryption in today's digital radio world is easy, but an agency's decision to encrypt traditionally scanable channels shouldn't be. With it comes suffering. Situational awareness for off-duty manpower and that of neighboring towns both on and off-duty suffers, as does that "inter-operability" buzzword. Citizens who enjoy having the peace of mind that all is well in the outside world suffer. Citizens who want to know if something dangerous is headed towards their house and desire the ability to keep watch suffer. The ability of the news media to efficiently cover breaking news suffers, as does the overall transparency of the department.

Internet streamers are demonized by some members of the scanning hobby as "killing the hobby." Others have pointed out that streaming IS the hobby. Should scanning be reserved only for those willing to spend $500 on a radio and posses the skill necessary to program it? We are indeed lucky to live in a country where it is legal to monitor public safety communications. Unfortunately agencies are just as free to decide to encrypt. I'd like to see the leaders of those agencies reevaluate where the greater good exists. I prefer to live in a community that I can monitor. I'd like to see the people who've been shut out from their area's patrol efforts become more vocal in getting the airwaves back. And I'd certainly prefer to see Radio Reference hold the line when it comes to any unconstitutional orders they receive, even if it means another agency turning its back on the community.
 

aps_ak

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I think the other thing that I have not seen anyone mention is social media.

Backstory: this time last year, our local department actually streamed on Broadcastify - with a 10 minute delay, though. The dispatchers also had control over the feed (the feed came from their radios, as all channels were encrypted as part of the deal) , and anytime an officer would call out "kill the feed", it would go offline. First this was used during major incidents, but over time they got a little more liberal with taking it offline, when finally last winter they took it down for about a month. This past August, the city officials made the decision to completely do away with the feed - AND along with it encrypt the Fire Department channels.

In our case, I put partial blame on a very popular Facebook group in town, which had designated volunteers almost transcribing what they had heard on the PD feed to their Facebook wall. In addition to streaming communications (and I'll leave that alone, plenty of opinions on that have been expressed), recording transmissions in writing and audio on social media really puts a damper on things.

Bottom line, we live in a different time now. Technology has eliminated a lot of barriers in the radio world, but has also advanced it to where it is very easy to keep communications private now.

My own personal opinion, which may be understandably unpopular, is that the hobby has gotten too easy to get into. When I got into it 7 years ago (which isn't even that long ago), I took time to research how to find and program and understand trunking systems, channels, modulations etc. It was a steep learning curve at first, but its been rewarding. I understand that its more profitable for companies to make products that are easier for new customers to use "out of the box", but I think there should be more to it than just punching in the zipcode.
 

Hans13

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Excellent post, Monaco. I can't disagree with it.

These days, there is a very strong us vs. them mentality. The closing down of avenues through which daily government radio traffic can be monitored will only exacerbate the divide between people and government. Whether that traffic is streamed or directly received, it doesn't matter. All of those saying that the remainder of the hobby can somehow be saved by stopping streams, are mistaken. They will be the targets when they are the last ones standing. Without streaming, I think a large chunk of the population who listen to government radio traffic will disappear. There have been many people that I know who got into scanning through livestream because they weren't going to invest in equipment until they experienced and evaluated their own interest with little investment. Streaming afforded them that opportunity.
 

Hans13

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My own personal opinion, which may be understandably unpopular, is that the hobby has gotten too easy to get into. When I got into it 7 years ago (which isn't even that long ago), I took time to research how to find and program and understand trunking systems, channels, modulations etc. It was a steep learning curve at first, but its been rewarding. I understand that its more profitable for companies to make products that are easier for new customers to use "out of the box", but I think there should be more to it than just punching in the zipcode.

I disagree. Liberty is the birthright of a free people. Listening in on government radio communications should not have an artificial barrier. If the free market is able to provide easier access, then it is counter to a free society for government hinder that process. In my opinion, our government is driving nails into its own coffin faster than news can keep up with these days. This is just another box of nails.
 

kd7kdc

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The feed provider should have checked with Lindsay first before outing himself and to allow our legal team a chance to do their job. I understand our legal team is very good at what they do.

Hopefully going forward there will not be a bunch of cease and desist mailings coming from other agencies because they think our providers will cave under the pressure.




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The feed provider should have checked with Lindsay first before outing himself and to allow our legal team a chance to do their job. I understand our legal team is very good at what they do.

Hopefully going forward there will not be a bunch of cease and desist mailings coming from other agencies because they think our providers will cave under the pressure.




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Let's be honest for a minute...

Every single feed provider on here would soil their pants the moment they receive a Cease and Desist letter from a department. I'm pretty sure that 99.9% of feeders don't have the money or the legal expertise to defend themselves at some point in a legal setting. Regardless of whom is Right or Wrong, that sole person just can't afford it.

We all know that departments and radio techs visit the forums, just like we do. Maybe they will have an inclination to start drafting these letters and firing them off to streamers. Maybe they should be proactive in stopping the problem. A problem that can easily be remedied by going after the actual user or ip of a person. That will resolve this problem, once and for all.

Back on topic though. I highly doubt that Broadcastify folks would be willing to start using legal services when ALL of these departments start sending them letters. For 1 agency, yeah, perhaps. But the moment the departments figure out what is happening now. Hopefully they'll do the right thing.

Just my 2 cents!
 

redneckcellphone

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See the story line happening in Southern California now. The Cities and Counties are ruthless and don't care about us citizens. They are Encrypting major cities and counties that are bigger than the state of Rhode Island and Encrypting everything from Public Works to the Dog Catchers and I mean a 100 percent of everything. Do I agree, absolutely not. It's painful and we all on the west coast are feeling the end sometime near within the next 5 to 10 years.

If you read LA forums Orange County CA is already putting into the meeting and agenda notes that they want to Encrypt all of Fire comms too. LE has been gone to encryption 15 years ago.

It's happening people, its no joke and its completely painful for us law abiding citizens. We are all feeling this pain and it sucks big time. It's scary and dark times these days we are living in.

Now what will i listen to when that happens? Nothing i guess. And to think i almost sold someone on buying a 500$ scanner until i told him all the police in orange county are encrypted except for the red channel.

Maybe whistler and uniden need to step up and help us fight encryption so we can keep them in business.



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cpetraglia

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Fairfax, VA
Your a good man... if only other feed providers or the owner of this site had the character you do we would still be able to listen like we used to. Instead the owner of this site in just greed has forced public safety agency after public safety agency to go encrypted. Locally here 7 of the 8 departments operate in full encryption citing this site as the only reason why.
AMEN
 

prc117f

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Let's be honest for a minute...

Every single feed provider on here would soil their pants the moment they receive a Cease and Desist letter from a department. I'm pretty sure that 99.9% of feeders don't have the money or the legal expertise to defend themselves at some point in a legal setting. Regardless of whom is Right or Wrong, that sole person just can't afford it.

We all know that departments and radio techs visit the forums, just like we do. Maybe they will have an inclination to start drafting these letters and firing them off to streamers. Maybe they should be proactive in stopping the problem. A problem that can easily be remedied by going after the actual user or ip of a person. That will resolve this problem, once and for all.

Back on topic though. I highly doubt that Broadcastify folks would be willing to start using legal services when ALL of these departments start sending them letters. For 1 agency, yeah, perhaps. But the moment the departments figure out what is happening now. Hopefully they'll do the right thing.

Just my 2 cents!

And remember the people providing the Feed get no compensation. So yeah why put your neck on the line for legal troubles when you have no financial stake in the game. It costs tons of time and money to fight a lawsuit and the feed provider can avoid it by just cutting the feed since they make no money from it anyways.
 

br0adband

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Springfield MO
All I can say based on this is:

This will not end well, for any parties involved, and certainly not the casual or even the serious monitoring public.

Once this sort of thing gets rolling, it's not going to be easy to stop.
 

NC1

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Surry County, North Carolina
Once again the people who abide by the law get screwed and have to suffer because of idiots, fools, and criminals.

It never used to be like this, but we are being overrun by both stupid and/or bad people.
Where have all the good smart people gone? It's getting lonely, lol.
 

IAmSixNine

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Dallas, TX
Officers need to use the feeds to their advantage. I had a sit down with a swat officer a few months ago to discuss the new system the city has put out for bid. He asked me a lot of questions about encryption and going to a digital trunking system in general. Feeds online came up. I told him that if he looked at those terms of services for such things he would learn that swat channels and other non basic channels are not allowed. I then went on and told him that if he thinks criminals are using a scanner or online app that he should put out misinformation on those channels and use the secure channels to coordinate the correct into. His eyes got really big and gave me a huge thanks. He did agree with me that he thinks the number of good guys with scanners out weights the number of bad guys with them. Unfortunately he i set to retire in a year or two so hopefully he can get into someones ear that this new system doesnt need full encryption. Just partial.
 

cg

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I often wonder if municipalities could copyright their broadcasts like many other broadcasters (profit and non-profit)? Then any rebroadcast without permission would be a violation of existing law. A simple announcement programmed into a transmitter would be the same as the ones you hear during sports broadcasts.

chris
 

chaycock

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Oct 28, 2002
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Columbus, GA
This is probably going to come across as a stupid question, but here goes. I see references to people making money off of streaming these feeds, I'm just curious how are they or this site making money doing that? As far as I know, the only money this site charges is for those with premium memberships, which you don't have to have to listen to feeds, and of course, they are not charging the feed providers. So where/how is the money being made? This is a sincere question, not an attempt to troll or antagonize anyone.
 

KK4JUG

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I often wonder if municipalities could copyright their broadcasts like many other broadcasters (profit and non-profit)? Then any rebroadcast without permission would be a violation of existing law. A simple announcement programmed into a transmitter would be the same as the ones you hear during sports broadcasts.

chris

The simple answer is "no," for the same reason they can't copyright the laws they create, the minutes of their meetings, etc.
 
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