Erie County P25 System
- Thread starter MarkPalmer
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Wish I could've listened to the program. Who was participating in the discussion? Local media reporters and outlets, taxpayers, local politicians? Just curious who all in the community is getting fired up (besides myself, lol).
It was on Scott Bremner's show from 6-8. Just people calling in and his comments. Sounds like he may have relevant guests on in the future.
At least some of the other counties are thinking with the public interest in mind. I was reading in another thread here that Luzerne County is apparently getting a new system and it was quoted in a news release: "the county would not encrypt its general 911 law enforcement channel because it is intended to provide general bulletins and information about disasters and other regional emergencies".
Notice the key words being: "general 911 law enforcement channel", i.e.: dispatch.
Notice the key words being: "general 911 law enforcement channel", i.e.: dispatch.
MarkPalmer
Member
That is just it, and Millcreek proves it- there is no reason at all to encrypt the general police dispatch. They could encrypt the tac channels for private transmissions, and/or use cell phones as they do now for private conversations. Hiding things- it's what politicians do best and do for their own interests, and what ticks me off is they are doing it at taxpayer expense. It's like saying, "The public is too simple minded to understand any of this, and we have no interest in sharing what you just paid millions of dollars for."
Living in the City of Erie, I know the council meetings has a section called "citizens to be heard", and members of the public can voice their opinions about issues related to the City. I wonder if the County Council meetings have a similar venue? If so, perhaps it should be brought to the attention of the public - and the actual facts revealed, not lies like the Director of Public Safety was quoted as saying encryption cannot ever be turned off now or in the future for any one agency let alone law enforcement as a whole. At the end of the day, it is our taxpayer dollars that are funding this system. I think the public should know the truth. I'm not the sort of person to go preach at meetings though or raise awareness. But maybe if enough people say something, a change MAY happen, although I seriously doubt it.
I just did a quick search throughout the region, all the agencies around us that have a digital system implemented in one way or another are in the clear for the most part (with the exception of PSP and the Statewide P25 VHF/800 System and the Statewide Harris M/A Com OpenSKY system), with the exception of tactical channels. Just doing a glance through the database, and assuming the information contained therein is still accurate, the only agency I could find encrypted was Youngstown, OH police. Everyone else seems to be in the clear, including Buffalo and Cleveland, Chautauqua County, Cattaraugus County, etc... For the longest time Chautauqua County had a simulcast link of the police communications, which eventually turned into the analog fire pager channel. I'm assuming the simulcast was just a way for agencies who didn't have the digital radios still to communicate on the digital system with their analog radios. After the migration was complete, they vacated the frequency for the fire analog pagers. The database reflects a new frequency for Chautauqua County law (on analog), and I've yet to hear any activity on my base station and it's been programmed in for a month. I don't have a digital scanner, but obviously the system is in the clear judging by the database and online streaming. I get the officer safety standpoint, I really do. But that "reasoning" gets stretched way beyond the 'safety' aspect of things.
Again, what's Erie County have to hide? Perhaps some of their incompetent dispatchers.
I just did a quick search throughout the region, all the agencies around us that have a digital system implemented in one way or another are in the clear for the most part (with the exception of PSP and the Statewide P25 VHF/800 System and the Statewide Harris M/A Com OpenSKY system), with the exception of tactical channels. Just doing a glance through the database, and assuming the information contained therein is still accurate, the only agency I could find encrypted was Youngstown, OH police. Everyone else seems to be in the clear, including Buffalo and Cleveland, Chautauqua County, Cattaraugus County, etc... For the longest time Chautauqua County had a simulcast link of the police communications, which eventually turned into the analog fire pager channel. I'm assuming the simulcast was just a way for agencies who didn't have the digital radios still to communicate on the digital system with their analog radios. After the migration was complete, they vacated the frequency for the fire analog pagers. The database reflects a new frequency for Chautauqua County law (on analog), and I've yet to hear any activity on my base station and it's been programmed in for a month. I don't have a digital scanner, but obviously the system is in the clear judging by the database and online streaming. I get the officer safety standpoint, I really do. But that "reasoning" gets stretched way beyond the 'safety' aspect of things.
Again, what's Erie County have to hide? Perhaps some of their incompetent dispatchers.
I totally agree.
Well said!
I for one will suddenly have amnesia when the secret police want to know something ,and I don't think i am the only one ,they are burning bridges faster than they can build them ,solve crime in a vacuum boys ,the airlock is off limits. The department that's has no intrest in accountability or body camers,"they dont have that kind of crime problem" cameras build rapport and bridges with the public at a fraction on the cost of there garbage radio system ? So they have a secret communications crime but not body cams crime,its laughable and is going to drag there reputation into the gutter , Lawrence Park has body cams,and has had them for a couple of years ,that tells me erie police are scared of having to do an honorable job ,i feel sorry for them when some camera footage that doesn't show them in a good light comes out next , they have put themselves in an indefensible position in court ,somebody can start planning a get rich quick on camera ambush ,i think it safe to say most of us know a hand full of cops with the perfect attitude, who will take the bait,and lose there career for not being able to think on there feet.
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MarkPalmer
Member
If the police in Erie don't wish to be open, accountable, and cooperative with the public for the future in regards to this radio system, how can they expect the same from people they encounter? Police already have a bad enough rapport in this country, and with recent memories of fine Erie officers like Robert Liebel and Cheryl Frey, this action isn't doing anything to improve their image. Add to that the lie that the encryption can't be turned off in the future (this was stated to get it in place and keep it in place) my faith in the EPD has sunk to an all time level of zero.
I don't believe it's just Erie PD to point the finger at. I know several police officers personally throughout various agencies of the County, and believe it or not, there are good guys out there. But we all know that old saying: "it takes one bad apple to spoil/ruin the batch", and it is their counterparts being foreshadowed on the news using excessive force to make an arrest behind a bar on the lower eastside that ended up in the City having to make a payout settlement in court, or the officer who was running his mouth about a homicide at a bar in Girard that made national news. As for Officer Frey, she wasn't a bad person. She really cared about people and especially animals and was a voice for them. Although I don't agree with her actions the night of her DUI, you have to realize that everyone at some point in their life makes mistakes, no matter who you are or what you do. It's human nature. I'm not perfect, nobody is. I'm not sticking up for her (or other ill-intent and/or corrupt law enforcement officers), and she should have known better in the career she was in, but again, live and learn. However, you are correct, in today's day and age where there is so much mistrust against the police (of which I blame the media), masking yourself from the public doesn't instill trust in the community you serve. To most people, this "encryption thing" isn't an issue to those who don't listen to scanners and whatnot. But for the people who do listen to scanners, such as myself and the others on this board - as a hobby, for entertainment and for news, not to mention our first responders in the fire and medical field who monitor for situational awareness, this is a hindrance.
...and if we want to talk about mistrust, PSP takes the cake and makes the top of my list. I had a bad run-in with them in 2015 all due to a simple traffic infraction, and I can clearly see why they are "encrypted". The Trooper citing me going so far as to lie and put the name of another Trooper on the citation, who did not witness the event as found out during my not guilty plea hearing at the MDJ months later. It isn't just the events surrounding Eric Frein or Bucky Phillips that they went encrypted, believe me... After that string of events a few years ago, I will never trust PSP, and I really hate to say that. Again, the "one bad apple to ruin the batch". Even NYSP, after the events of Bucky Phillips listening to a scanner to evade them remains mostly unencrypted.
There are agencies in this County that I know of who want the public to be able to listen to what's going on in their communities, Erie PD NOT being one of them. I honestly feel it's more the County and the Director pushing this as opposed to the agencies themselves. And lying along the way, making such cavalier statements as "law enforcement unanimously came to us demanding encryption and we listened" and "encryption cannot be turned off EVER", when as I recall reading some time ago in this thread, that at the original public meeting, it was stated it would be up to each individual agency to decide whether or not they want to encrypt. The Director of Public Safety (last I understood anyway) doesn't take a liking to scanner listeners, or "the people in scanner-land" as he put it, when I was interviewing for the job at the County in 2010. Maybe even the vendor is pushing encryption for more money. We will never really know the truth, but the whole thing stinks.
But rest assured, your politicians will have the radios to monitor the police, no doubt about it!
...and if we want to talk about mistrust, PSP takes the cake and makes the top of my list. I had a bad run-in with them in 2015 all due to a simple traffic infraction, and I can clearly see why they are "encrypted". The Trooper citing me going so far as to lie and put the name of another Trooper on the citation, who did not witness the event as found out during my not guilty plea hearing at the MDJ months later. It isn't just the events surrounding Eric Frein or Bucky Phillips that they went encrypted, believe me... After that string of events a few years ago, I will never trust PSP, and I really hate to say that. Again, the "one bad apple to ruin the batch". Even NYSP, after the events of Bucky Phillips listening to a scanner to evade them remains mostly unencrypted.
There are agencies in this County that I know of who want the public to be able to listen to what's going on in their communities, Erie PD NOT being one of them. I honestly feel it's more the County and the Director pushing this as opposed to the agencies themselves. And lying along the way, making such cavalier statements as "law enforcement unanimously came to us demanding encryption and we listened" and "encryption cannot be turned off EVER", when as I recall reading some time ago in this thread, that at the original public meeting, it was stated it would be up to each individual agency to decide whether or not they want to encrypt. The Director of Public Safety (last I understood anyway) doesn't take a liking to scanner listeners, or "the people in scanner-land" as he put it, when I was interviewing for the job at the County in 2010. Maybe even the vendor is pushing encryption for more money. We will never really know the truth, but the whole thing stinks.
But rest assured, your politicians will have the radios to monitor the police, no doubt about it!
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Let's not overlook the officer driving on the wrong side ,Killing an elderly motorist ,but who got no real punishment because according to EPD, who had the right of way was disputed ,in every other case in America we can assertain who had the greenlight ,and call me simple minded when your car is left of center you dont have right of way.
Or the degenerate who was DWI and hit a fire truck with its emergency warning activated ,i grew up in what's known as the most corrupt county in america ,so I pay special notice to cops who do or say things not consistent with law ,best practices ,or SOP,in the past I might record it,identify the officer involved ,let the neighbors see it and move on , however under the new secret police every act will be published and forwarded to LEOs outside our corrupt little city department,into the larger LEO Community ,i am not anti cop ,i am anti bad cop ,and knowing that this department has a long history of "file 13" investigations and cover ups of its own bad behaviours,it's time to let the adults in the room see how God awfully bad our PD & 911 center are ,at doing the job .actually on a much larger scope you can add the Fire Department not Getting the funding to replace apparatus ,equipment and manpower , Emergycare international who just can't seem to have enough buses on the road, when needed ,if you look around at calls for service that get unanswered or low priority so they may get attention hours later , the number of times volunteer departments are required to mutual aide into the city to supplement manpower shortages , we shouldn't be wasting money on the secret police radio system ,when all in all we have a system wide problem ,in all areas that could be genuinely helped with an infusion of capital ,that is instead being squandered on a radio system ( let alone a complex encrypted one ,where the bad habits they currently have employed are going to lead to system failure and chaos ,on the new system).if this is what our elected leaders deem important it's time we devote more time towards replacing the corrupt and inept ,with people who can do the job .
If on county level we have burecrats who want to sweep the uglyness and failure under the carpet, local officials have no incentive to improve?
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Or the degenerate who was DWI and hit a fire truck with its emergency warning activated ,i grew up in what's known as the most corrupt county in america ,so I pay special notice to cops who do or say things not consistent with law ,best practices ,or SOP,in the past I might record it,identify the officer involved ,let the neighbors see it and move on , however under the new secret police every act will be published and forwarded to LEOs outside our corrupt little city department,into the larger LEO Community ,i am not anti cop ,i am anti bad cop ,and knowing that this department has a long history of "file 13" investigations and cover ups of its own bad behaviours,it's time to let the adults in the room see how God awfully bad our PD & 911 center are ,at doing the job .actually on a much larger scope you can add the Fire Department not Getting the funding to replace apparatus ,equipment and manpower , Emergycare international who just can't seem to have enough buses on the road, when needed ,if you look around at calls for service that get unanswered or low priority so they may get attention hours later , the number of times volunteer departments are required to mutual aide into the city to supplement manpower shortages , we shouldn't be wasting money on the secret police radio system ,when all in all we have a system wide problem ,in all areas that could be genuinely helped with an infusion of capital ,that is instead being squandered on a radio system ( let alone a complex encrypted one ,where the bad habits they currently have employed are going to lead to system failure and chaos ,on the new system).if this is what our elected leaders deem important it's time we devote more time towards replacing the corrupt and inept ,with people who can do the job .
If on county level we have burecrats who want to sweep the uglyness and failure under the carpet, local officials have no incentive to improve?
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How could I have forgotten those? Also the PSP Girard Trooper who crashed into the car at Route 98 and Tannery Rd in Fairview while blowing through the intersection where HE had the stop sign, taking the other victim's life. I remember watching on the news how the County Prosecutor had mercy for the Trooper because if he had lost his license, he would have lost his job., so they cut him a break (or reduced the charge, my memory is vague). But it's okay to cite myself for a simple traffic violation and cause me to lose my drivers license (and subsequently a side job as a driver) for a brief period of time, and I didn't even kill anyone, much less put anyone in danger. Funny how that works!
The fact of the matter is, no ordinary Joe Blow like myself or you yourself wrath, or most anyone in this thread would get away with some of the things our law enforcement officers do. Again, it's not every law enforcement officer out there in our County, much less America, but the good guys (and girls) rarely, if ever get a pat on the back, a "good job", or a spot in the media realm for doing the right things. When all the media wants to talk about is politics, "racism" and "corrupt police", it stirs the pot and causes riots as we've seen the past several years that the media GLADLY covers. I'm personally tired of reading news article headings that say "black male", "white male", "black female" or "white female". Does it matter what color the person is? "BLACK MALE STEALS $60 IN CIGARETTES FROM LOCAL GAS STATION" or "WHITE MALE SHOOTS UP SYNAGOGUE" or the like. Obviously in dispatching for police, it's different, as the police need an ACCURATE description of the subject(s)/suspect(s) they are looking for, and it's not being "racist". But tell that to the media or the scanner listeners who take offense. Racism and corrupt law enforcement is what you make of it. I honestly feel that there are more good than bad that we'll never get to see.
...and for the record, I don't have an issue with police officers or law enforcement either. Like yourself, I have an issue with those who abuse their powers or feel because they wear a badge, they are above the law and don't need to abide by the same laws us citizens must follow. I have several friends in law enforcement who do the right things and don't consider themselves any different than you or I - on or off the job.
Anyway, I digress as I am getting off topic of this thread.
That is the same for up here. All city/regional police around the Golden Horseshoe area of Ontario are all encrypted. We for now are lucky the OPP is still in the clear. But Hamilton took it to the extreme and encrypted everything on their trunk, including public works. SMH.
Matt
I have to wonder why some young hotshot lawyer hasnt made a case over this ,we should not have to assume law enforcement is spending our tax dollars wisely when there is no proof they are doing anything other then the blue wall of silence mischevious things unsupervised officers do like park somewhere and catch up on sleep ? And somebody just donated 100,000 for 5 new police harleys ,could that be because they blew there budget on unproven toys ,let me guess we are going to live under a police state as they extort money and court costs from people for operating revenue , Erie has been smacked down by the justice department numerous times for imposing onerous court costs and arresting and jailing those who could not afford it, hint one of there collection operation criminal thugs is N3XOG , he even tries to hide his home address by using the courthouse as his residence ,hes kind of scared of meeting anyone he's tried to intimidate ,i have his actual physical QTH in case he needs help getting tuned up sometime ,he has no footprint on 2/220/70 cm so i assume he works HF and i am just too close to copy him.
If a city like Manhattan can find and prosecute those who screw with there com's, these small cities are wasting tax dollars and burning community relations with there ludicrous claims of officer safety ,the excuses politicians use to waste money are getting so thin they have only one side .
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Perhaps this new P25 system will be a complete abomination, that it'll turn into the next OpenSKY: money dumped into it throughout its lifespan for which it far exceeded the initial value and still didn't fully function as intended a decade later. ...of course it doesn't matter, because the money comes from where?
MarkPalmer
Member
As I live in Millcreek I guess I can look on the bright side as there will still be local police and fire/EMS to still listen to Fri. and Sat. nights in my electronics shop. Listening in has been more or less for entertainment value, but I stand by my statement 100% that the decision to encrypt was done as a J. Grappy “cover our asses” insurance policy rather than being based on officer safety. I didn’t vote for those who were instrumental in putting this system in place, so in that respect the best I could do was all I could do. In the end, the result was exactly as I expected- no less than total disappointment.
I have an email request in to the head consultant in charge of this project. I'm hoping to get a realistic answer to the completion date and start of testing. I've been getting that 3/31 date for months now, but it sure looks to be not the case now. I'll post his response once I get it.
Couldn't agree with you more! I really hope some County officials read all of this.
Locally here in west county, radio installations not complete at fire dept, some radios installed minus face plates, no base unit or siren controller yet. Installers saying probably 4 more months til operational. Which confirms the paper saying end of Q2 this year!
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