FlexRadio

[ka1njl]

Does anyone have any experience with the receivers in the the FlexRadio SDRs? I have been tempted to buy an SDR receiver but, as a ham, I am inclined to get a transceiver instead. Ideally I would like to get something that receives very well and transmits too. That has me looking at the FlexRadio Flex-3000.

Any thoughts or advice will be welcome.

73, ka1njl

 

[ka3jjz]

Did you check out eHam for their reviews? And I would also see if there are any Yahoo groups for it (I would be willing to bet there's more than one..)

best regards..Mike

 

[PeterGV]

They make exceptionally good radios for ham use and spectrum exploration.

If you'd like to hear folks describing all the ins and outs of Flexradio usage, consider joining the email list reflectors described here.

After the several years of using FlexRadio SDRs and being moderately active asking and answering questions on the reflectors, I would provide the following two items by way of guidance:

1) If you are uncomfortable, or just BARELY comfortable, using a computer... a FlexRadio SDR is not for you. The computer IS the radio, and you need to expect that you'll need to tune and play with your computer and its connections.

2) If you aren't open to a very different HF radio experience... if you want a radio that works just like every radio you've had over the years... a FlexRadio SDR is not for you. There's no knobs on a FlexRadio SDR (OK, there's an optional knob, but never mind that). Your primary tuning mechanism is the mouse on your computer.

Having said all that, I want to emphasize that -- at least for me -- using a radio with a big screen panadaptor was nothing short of a life changing experience. I have an SDR-1000 that I bought a few years back, and I could NEVER go back to tuning a radio "by ear" again. The ability to SEE a big swatch of a band... actually SEE the signals being sent from each station, and its characteristics... the ability to have (really) brick wall filtering the placement and width of which is infinitely adjustable and the ability to SEE the signals that you want to be in your passband and outside your passband... is nothing short of WONDERFUL.

As I said, I can't image tuning a radio by ear ever again.

Anyhow... there are some thoughts for you. Hope that helps,

Peter
K1PGV

 

[ka1njl]

Thanks

Peter,

Thank you for the feedback. I am very comfortable with computers, right now there are 6 or 7 of them scattered around the house running and providing various services (e-mail, web services, serving scanner audio, serving ADS-B hits, serving entertainment media, running snort, etc.) and that is one of the things that I find attractive about the FlexRadio line. I did check the feedback on eham.net and found it extremely variable. For example one ham said that the receiver was quieter than his TenTec Orion and another said it had the noisiest receiver he has ever used. I guess our mileage varies.

I appreciate hearing about your experience. A friend of mine has a Flex Radio and loves it. He is having a ball with it and in the end that is what counts.

73

 

[prcguy]

Instead of the Flex 3000 you can get an Elecraft K3 (which has a much better receiver) and with an LP-PAN adapter box it will run the same software and panadapter as the FLEX radios.

You would then have a world class stand alone portable transceiver with real knobs and the same look and feel of the FLEX when connected to a computer. With the PowerSDR software you can click on a signal on the spectrum analyzer and the radio will instantly tune to that frequency, very cool feature.

The PowerSDR software is free, the LP-PAN box is about $250 and you need one of several recommended soundcards that will cost about $60 on Ebay.

I had this setup for awhile then purchased the P3 panadapter from Elecraft and have not used the PowerSDR since. The P3 panadapter will also fit most any radio with an IF output.
prcguy

 

[ka1njl]

Instead of the Flex 3000 you can get an Elecraft K3 (which has a much better receiver) and with an LP-PAN adapter box it will run the same software and panadapter as the FLEX radios.

You would then have a world class stand alone portable transceiver with real knobs and the same look and feel of the FLEX when connected to a computer. With the PowerSDR software you can click on a signal on the spectrum analyzer and the radio will instantly tune to that frequency, very cool feature.

The PowerSDR software is free, the LP-PAN box is about $250 and you need one of several recommended soundcards that will cost about $60 on Ebay.

I had this setup for awhile then purchased the P3 panadapter from Elecraft and have not used the PowerSDR since. The P3 panadapter will also fit most any radio with an IF output.
prcguy

These are, of course, good suggestions and I would likely end up with a better receiver. However, the goal right now is to play with SDR to learn more about the strengths and weaknesses of SDR technology. I have owned, and still own, several software controlled radios but I now want to experience true SDR in a transceiver. Who knows, maybe a K3 (or K4 if one ever materializes) will be in my future. The thing I find most attractive about this hobby is the multitude of modes, equipment, technologies, etc. that is out there to experiment with and learn about. I have no doubt that this will not be my last transceiver.

73, ka1njl

 

[prcguy]

The K3 is not just a software controlled radio, its a full SDR radio where all modulation and demod are handled in its DSP. All operating modes are simply another waveform for the DSP to create and chew on and Elecraft can (and has) add more modes in the future with a download like most any other SDR. The K3 just happens to include a nice human interface instead of an outboard computer to control everything.

If you get the chance to experience several SDR radios you'll find many different levels in performance depending on the skill of the DSP designers. Not counting any analog IF filtering, I've seen some SDR radios with lousy DSP filter implementation where you narrow the IF down to less than 1KHz and you can still hear sizzle and sibilance in SSB voice and close by interference is not reduced where others more closely emulate a crystal filter and are much more of a brick wall.
prcguy

These are, of course, good suggestions and I would likely end up with a better receiver. However, the goal right now is to play with SDR to learn more about the strengths and weaknesses of SDR technology. I have owned, and still own, several software controlled radios but I now want to experience true SDR in a transceiver. Who knows, maybe a K3 (or K4 if one ever materializes) will be in my future. The thing I find most attractive about this hobby is the multitude of modes, equipment, technologies, etc. that is out there to experiment with and learn about. I have no doubt that this will not be my last transceiver.

73, ka1njl

 

[PeterGV]

The K3 is certainly a fine radio according to everything I've read and everyone I've talked to. And it is, indeed, a "real" SDR. We can argue about whether the receiver in the K3 is "far superior" or not, I suppose... from all the data I've seen it may be a bit better than that of the Flex-5000, but it depends on the measurements you value and exactly what you consider "better."

But using a K3 is a very different experience from using a FlexRadio SDR. Using a K3 is more like using a "regular" radio with knobs and buttons. Using the LP-PAN is nothing like using the PowerSDR on the Flex.

NJL... you sound like a good candidate for a FlexRadio. You can check out some YouTube videos of people using the Flex radios (I found this one a nice demo of the Flex-3000 PowerSDR interface) to get a feel for how the radio is worked.

I think you'd enjoy it... just be sure you have a fairly modern computer with plenty of ram to run PowerSDR. Hey... if you buy one and find you hate it, you can always sell it!

Peter
K1PGV

 

[Xbullworker]

D
Any thoughts or advice will be welcome.
73, ka1njl

Software Defined Radio

Pro AND Con for owning a Flexradio..

 

[prcguy]

A good friend of mine had a real world experience on 6m comparing a K3 and Flex 5000. My friend is a well known RF designer and spends a lot of time on 6m with his K3. His good friend about 1mi away is also a 6m enthusiast and his Flex 5000 was getting ripped up when the K3 guy was operating about 5KHz away on CW but the K3 guy never heard any problems from the FLEX 5000.

They did some measurements and found received signal levels from each other were very strong (around -20dBm if I remember) and nearly identical at each location and the transmitters were both clean.

Under these conditions the K3 could operate 5KHz away from the FLEX 5000 and not even know its there and the FLEX 5000 was completely unusable.

I sat through a technical discussion of the K3 design and can say the Elecraft people are pushing the limits of current receiver technology that allows very close operation with strong signals. During the K3 design hey reached a performance impasse and found the crystal filters were creating IMDs at very high receive levels and found a way to eliminate the problem and pushed the performance to a new level.

All current high end receivers will suffer from the same crystal filter IMD problem at extreme levels but at the time of the K3 release no other company had discovered or cured it. The front end, mixer, crystal filter and gain distribution before the DSP is key to ultimate performance in an SDR radio and I don't think the FLEX radios have focused as much on this compared to Elecraft. The sound card based DSP in the FLEX can only do so much in providing a brick wall IF filter if the analog chains feeding it are not top notch.

Before purchasing the K3 my friend had a Yaesu FT-1000D and he bought a TenTec Orion II because it could hear signals that the FT-1000 could not in real world tests. I loaned my friend a K3 and after a week of intense testing (mostly weak CW) he says the K3 can hear signals that the Orion II cannot so he bought a K3. Its possible the new top of the heap Yaesu FT-5000 might out do the K3 in these types of tests but we don't feel like spending $5k anytime soon to find out.

My comments here are not to put down the FLEX radios, they are certainly on the short list of the best receivers made to date. Not everyone will need or want the last word in performance but its nice to have some real world experiences to help choose which direction you want to go with your next purchase.
prcguy

The K3 is certainly a fine radio according to everything I've read and everyone I've talked to. And it is, indeed, a "real" SDR. We can argue about whether the receiver in the K3 is "far superior" or not, I suppose... from all the data I've seen it may be a bit better than that of the Flex-5000, but it depends on the measurements you value and exactly what you consider "better."

But using a K3 is a very different experience from using a FlexRadio SDR. Using a K3 is more like using a "regular" radio with knobs and buttons. Using the LP-PAN is nothing like using the PowerSDR on the Flex.

NJL... you sound like a good candidate for a FlexRadio. You can check out some YouTube videos of people using the Flex radios (I found this one a nice demo of the Flex-3000 PowerSDR interface) to get a feel for how the radio is worked.

I think you'd enjoy it... just be sure you have a fairly modern computer with plenty of ram to run PowerSDR. Hey... if you buy one and find you hate it, you can always sell it!

Peter
K1PGV

 

[Xbullworker]

A good friend of mine had a real world experience on 6m

FLEX 5000 was completely unusable.

I had real world experiences with the Flex 5K for 1 year. My trials and tribulations are well documented on Software Defined Radio

The thing I learned the most about Flexradio is that RX specs are NOT the most important factor in enjoying a radio. Any of todays radios are just fine for everyday ham use. I compared my Flex 5k to other radios and not once could I find a situation where the Flex would copy a signal and the other radio could not.

Make no mistake, the Flex 5K has an excellent RX but few hams need this kind of performance. Contesters and DX working a pileup could benefit. However, ergonomically the Flexradios are not suited for contesting, which is why Big Gun Contesters do not use them.

The Flexradios have many many faults but poor RX is not one of them.

Stan K9IUQ

 

[w6or]

Software Defined Radio is one of those topics that bring out the "religion" in people which results in very heated discussions as to what defines SDR, knobs or no knobs, ease of use and so on. Sometimes those discussions can be useful, a lot of the time the reality gets lost in the fog of battle. No one party can claim the high ground, it is what it is.

I have used a FLEX 3000 for over a year, and have by and large enjoyed the experience. I have worked in PC graphics and have been around PCs since college. I don't consider myself the typical Ham user but since I have been involved in interface design, I have tried to keep my mind open to the pitfalls to the less wary.

As I see it, the primary pitfall is the dependence and sensitivity to firewire through Windows. Firewire performance is dependent on a couple of things - the chipset of the firewire interface and the configuration of IRQs on the PC to which the Flex will be connected to.

Already I've devolved into technobabble and this throws many good Hams off from trying the experience. Flex is not true plug and play in the same sense that traditional transceivers are, and this rightly frustrates some users. However, much of the problem is inherent in the use of Firewire and PC architecture. One wonders if there is a better path now or if they are now forever locked into Firewire. I don't know. I do know that Firewire latency issues are a real bear to find, and are a complete mystery to the majority of prospective owners.

Having not operated a big contest station, I can't really speak to that. PowerSDR doesn't seem designed with that in mind, and is much more oriented to visually monitoring the band when hunting for signals. I've worked hundreds of DX pileups and I do find the Flex to be a big help. If the DX station is working split, that's a breeze to setup and monitor. You can easily see any pattern if the DX is monitoring a range of frequencies, and use that to adjust/anticipate where they might be listening next (thank you Bob Locher). Point, click, done.

Anyway here is summary of what I like about the PowerSDR software -
+ High resolution rendering of the spectrum
+ Point and click tuning
+ Complete range of filters plus ability to create your own and save them for future. This saves you a bit of cash in comparison to the standalone rigs. Filters are rock solid.
+ Easy to record and playback stations (mostly for BCB dxing)
+ Digital modes work very well when setup (requires VAC software which costs extra)

I certainly have problems with the software. Most of which is interface design. It could be so much better in general ease of use and it hasn't really evolved much at all. This is something I believe they need to look at.

I'm going to keep using my Flex 3000. It satisfies a lot of my Ham needs. I would like to try higher end rigs but I simply don't have the cash. For the money, the Flex 3000 is a pretty compelling offering...as long as you don't have to spend money to upgrade your PC or waste time with configuration issues.

Just my rambling 2c...

Andrew
W6OR

 

[w2txb]

Boy.... did I screw up, or what?

I sincerely hope it is the latter, as I have a Flex 5000A on the way, and some accessories arriving shortly after the radio arrives.

More seriously, every radio (and everything else) has its supporters and its detractors. The Internet and its various review sites certainly makes this more apparent; in the old days, we would go to a hamfest or a dealer showroom to play with the knobs and maybe buy what we wanted. Now, with so few dealers, that old concept is largely gone, replaced by the Internet, where there is a wide range of opinions on just about everything.

Is this a bad thing? Absolutely not, as people will certainly share their opinions as they would in person, leaving prospective buyers to form their own opinions and to make decisions.

Granted, the Flex stuff does not come cheap, nor should it; there are some improvements to be made, but they seem reasonably good at updating their software and firmware at reasonable intervals... probably neither better nor worse than most major manufacturers.

Are there bugs, issues, and/or problems? You betcha! Flex has fixed many of those and will be offering more upgrades and fixes in the future. Is the Flex "more (radio) that most hams need"? Maybe, but that remains (so far) up to each ham to decide.

It's all good.

 

[Token]

Does anyone have any experience with the receivers in the the FlexRadio SDRs? I have been tempted to buy an SDR receiver but, as a ham, I am inclined to get a transceiver instead. Ideally I would like to get something that receives very well and transmits too. That has me looking at the FlexRadio Flex-3000.

I have no specific experience with the Flex-3000, but I do have and have had the Flex-5000A for a couple years. I can say that in general I have been very happy with it.

The Flex-5000A in my use has been simply fantastic. As others have stated, it is not the most plug-and-play of radios and does take some digging to get the most out of it. PC performance is very important also. But for raw performance the 5000A is pretty darned good. It has consistently been as good or better than pretty much every other ham specific radio in the shack here, Yaesu FT-2000, FT-1000MP, Kenwood TS-2000X, TS-590S and pretty much a whole boat load of older radios (yeah, the FT-1000 is "older", but I consider it a benchmark, I would say it is the best traditional radio I have ever personally owned). My new FTDX5000MP does seem to be better in most ways, but I have not had that radio very long yet, the FTDX5000 is kind of a combination of traditional looks with new tech, much like the K3 (I have never owned a K3, but have used them a few times).

It would be possible to find situations where almost any one "good" radio performs better than another, so I do not worry too much about "this one did this while that one could not" instead I tend to let it boil down to what one I use the most when I set down at the ham shack. Until my FTDX5000 came along it tended to be my Flex-5000.

Now, at the listening position I am pretty much sold on SDR (SDR-14, SDR-IQ, Perseus, Excalibur, etc), I use almost exclusively SDRs for SWL and Ute listening (the ham shack and the listening post are two different things here, in two different rooms of the house, and I am far more active as a listener than as a ham, but that runs in cycles). Possibly because I have embraced the SDR and the fact you must use it with a computer the ergonomics and tribulations of working with the Flex-5000 just seem like a non-issue to me. Some users may be put out by such things, and prefer the simplicity of setting down in front of a knob radio and tuning by hand.

If the Flex-3000 RX is anything like the Flex-5000 then I do not see how you could be disappointed, but as I said before I have never actually used the Flex-3000.

T!

 

[ka1njl]

Thanks for the input

This has been a very interesting and informative conversation, I thank each of you for your input regardless of whether or not you favor SDR. I realize there are pros and cons to every radio and to every technology but I am looking forward to experimenting with something different. As long as I still have my other HF rigs (FT920, TS-440SAT (used solely for SWL), IC7000 and FT100, I like HF) to fall back on when I need a fix from a traditional radio I think it will be fun to play with something new. I plan to order a Flex3000 this week to take advantage of their special Dayton pricing.

Again, thanks and 73

 

[w2txb]

This has been a very interesting and informative conversation, I thank each of you for your input regardless of whether or not you favor SDR. I realize there are pros and cons to every radio and to every technology but I am looking forward to experimenting with something different. As long as I still have my other HF rigs (FT920, TS-440SAT (used solely for SWL), IC7000 and FT100, I like HF) to fall back on when I need a fix from a traditional radio I think it will be fun to play with something new. I plan to order a Flex3000 this week to take advantage of their special Dayton pricing.

Again, thanks and 73

Let us know when you receive it and get on the air with it; I will also try to post here when mine arrives and is up and running (unless I am totally occupied with PowerSDR ). I ordered mine last evening and it has been shipped (free FedEx Ground) - going to check the FedEx tracker this evening.

By the way, I am also using an IC-7000 and really like the radio... not upgrading because of any dissatisfaction with the "regular" radio.

I see you are in Monroe County - maybe catch you on 53.63 or 145.11 (often here after midnight).

 

[Hooligan]

Regarding the Flex SDRs, it seems like most of you who have posted opinions/experiences with them are doing so from the ham transceiver perspective.

I'm planning on getting some sort of HF SDR this year (I've been waiting to see if anything new is announced or released this weekend at the Dayton Hamvention) & am considering the Flex products, even though my application would probably be 80% non-ham voice & data reception, then 20% ham transceiving.

Does anyone have any comments about the Flex SDRs (& of course software) specific to non-ham, receive-only SWL/SIGINT applications?

 

[Token]

Regarding the Flex SDRs, it seems like most of you who have posted opinions/experiences with them are doing so from the ham transceiver perspective.

I'm planning on getting some sort of HF SDR this year (I've been waiting to see if anything new is announced or released this weekend at the Dayton Hamvention) & am considering the Flex products, even though my application would probably be 80% non-ham voice & data reception, then 20% ham transceiving.

Does anyone have any comments about the Flex SDRs (& of course software) specific to non-ham, receive-only SWL/SIGINT applications?

From the standpoint of the listener the Flex radios really are not any better than say the RFSpace SDR-IQ. Let me caveat that a bit. And keep in mind I have the Flex 5000A, but as it is generally considered to be the more capable Flex I think it can serve to talk about the limitations of the Flex radios in an SWL/Ute application.

The Flex 5000A has a fine front end, better than the SDR-IQ in this aspect. But, the bandwidth limitations are the same for the two radios, 192 kHz of displayed bandwidth, and the SDR-IQ is 1/10 the cost. And that kind of limits the use in an SWL/Ute application, at least in comparison to the much wider bandwidth display radios, like the SDR-IP, Perseus, Excalibur, QS1R, etc.

While bandwidth does not so much help SWL applications it is a very powerful tool in the Ute/SIGINT type application. The wider the display and the higher resolution the display the more likely you are to see and catch those short duration transient events, typically the more interesting transmissions. In my opinion the current “best” from this aspect (and several other RX specific areas) is the WinRadio Exclaibur, although it is not without shortcomings also.

The PowerSDR software just is not as “easy” to use from a Ute/SIGINT standpoint when compared to some of the receive specific SDRs out there. The record and playback of signals is not as seamless and the display is, by necessity, much more cluttered. I tend to prefer the simplicity of something like the SpectraVue software for this application. On the other hand, the noise blanking/reduction in PowerSDR might be better than the average RX only SDR software.

I guess I could say it more simply as: When I set down to do SWL/Ute/SIGINT type stuff, do I prefer to use the Flex or one of the dedicated RX SDRs? And the answer is overwhelmingly in favor of the dedicated RX. Not that the Flex will not work for that application, but it certainly is not optimized for it.

T!

 

[Hooligan]

Thanks!

 

[ka1njl]

I got my FlexRadio 3000

My new radio arrived so last night I wired it up and gave it a cursory test drive. While I have not transmitted yet because I need to adapt or replace the connector on a microphone, I must say I am impressed by the receiver. This opinion is purely subjective because I did not A/B it with any other rig (so far I have only a single dipole in the air) but I was impressed nonetheless. The various spectrum displays and tuning methods make it easy to identify and tune signals.

I also configured a virtual audio cable to pipe the receive audio through my computer's sound card and that was pretty simple. Next I'll configure a virtual serial port or two so I can experiment with some digital modes. So far, and this is after about 2 hours of playing around, I think I am going to like this rig. Nearly everything is configurable so there will no doubt be lots of time spent experimenting, that was one of my initial goals.

I'll no doubt be back with more impressions as I use it more but for now I am very with this rig and the potential it gives me to explore new technologies.

73, ka1njl