In re: Delete, Delete, Delete FCC looks to eliminate rules and regulations

[RaleighGuy]

And the winner of ‘Delete, Delete, Delete’ is Telegraph, Rabbit-Ear Receiver, Phone Booth, and Other Obsolete Regulations

 

[kb9mwr]

MURS is like CB - not very high up on the FCC's priority list.

Funny you say that but in 2017 there was a similar request Technological Advisory Council (TAC) on reforming technical regulations across all FCC radio services.

Several of the personal radio service rules (Part 95) were subsequently.

FCC to Consider Changes to Part 95 Rules - Radio World

FCC Personal Radio Service Revisions Will Affect GMRS, FRS, CB, Other Part 95 Devices

Guess what rules were changed for ham radio... Squat!

 

[Unitrunker2]

Sometimes the FCC can be convinced to make small improvements to regulation.

https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-397992A1.pdf

 

[kb9mwr]

Sometimes the FCC can be convinced to make small improvements to regulation.

https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-397992A1.pdf

That took over a decade and we are still in limbo on the above 30 MHz part, the FNPRM issued Jan 2024. And it likely only happened due the Congresswoman Lesko being involved. I'll ask it again, what good does the FCC do for ham radio?

 

[DeoVindice]

I'll ask it again, what good does the FCC do for ham radio?

Counterpoint: what good does ham radio do to justify the amount of spectrum it occupies in VHF on up? We hear constant reports of problems with lack of available Part 90 VHF spectrum and yet 2m is scarcely used.

 

[AK9R]

I'm not sure the value of the FCC to amateur radio or the value of amateur radio to the general public is on-topic for this discussion.

The FCC opened the door to make some regulatory changes. They received a large amount of input and took action on some antiquated parts of their voluminous rules. Maybe they have more actions in mind that are working through the halls of the FCC. Amateur radio is just a small part of what the FCC does. Let's not lose perspective.

 

[K9KLC]

Amateur radio is just a small part of what the FCC does. Let's not lose perspective

Exactly.

 

[JDKelley]

My suggestion would be to eliminate the rule requiring the lockout of the old analog cellular frequencies in the 800Mhz range. I mean, what's the point.

That's ECPA86 and the follow-on in 1992 (?) that made it so that scanners can't be modified to pick up CMT signals.
The whole law is unenforceable at best, and it's become dated with the proliferation of GSM phones supplanting CDMA anyhow - nearly all cell phones don't even operate in those frequency bands anymore.

 

[JDKelley]

I've seen this mentioned before.

I agree, it's no longer necessary. And anyone with an SDR or spectrum analyzer can listen there.

But what do scanner listeners think they are missing? It's wideband data emissions. I mean, if you really love listening to loud buzzing, I'm cool with that, but the analog cellular calls are long gone and there isn't secret unencrypted analog law enforcement traffic hiding there.

For people like me, it's just the simple fact that there are signals in those bands that are being transmitted, that are striking my person, that I am not permitted (for some asinine reason) to know the content or character of.
Granted, I can get them with my Malahit DSP3 - but that's because Russia has no ECPA.
And, I think, neither should we. Besides, it's a dated law, that was effectively unenforceable when it was passed, that has become vestigial at best (since mobile phones don't operate in those bands anymore, as a rule - nearly everything is GSM now, and I think even CDMA has moved up from the 800MHz band.)
But it's the equivalent of running a signal cable through my living room and telling me I don't get to know what's going over it - yes, I'm going to find a way to tap it, if you're going to invade my space with it.
Old TVs are getting harder to find these days (those signal bands were originally carved out of the high UHF bands on broadcast television - I could tell you which channels, if I had my notes handy.)
Early on, even when they made "nonmodifiable" scanners, you could still tune off by, I believe, double the 1st IF and pick up an image of what you were looking for - if there wasn't anything there to overpower it. But now they won't even tell you what the IFs are in your scanner anymore - which sucks. A glaring omission...
There's a very good reason I kept that stack of PRO-2006 units I've got on the shelf...

 

[mmckenna]

Overall, I concur. This law dates back to when cellular phones used analog emissions. It no longer makes any sense. Maybe they'll remove it in the near future.

Federal Register :: Request Access

www.ecfr.gov

that has become vestigial at best (since mobile phones don't operate in those bands anymore, as a rule - nearly everything is GSM now, and I think even CDMA has moved up from the 800MHz band.)

Mobile telephone does still use this band. That Part 22 spectrum is far too valuable to be abandoned.

But it's the equivalent of running a signal cable through my living room and telling me I don't get to know what's going over it - yes, I'm going to find a way to tap it, if you're going to invade my space with it.

Here's the section from 15.121 that addresses that:

Scanning receivers and frequency converters designed or marketed for use with scanning receivers, are not subject to the requirements of paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section provided that they are manufactured exclusively for, and marketed exclusively to, entities described in 18 U.S.C. 2512(2), or are marketed exclusively as test equipment pursuant to § 15.3(dd).​

15.3 sez:

Test equipment is defined as equipment that is intended primarily for purposes of performing measurements or scientific investigations. Such equipment includes, but is not limited to, field strength meters, spectrum analyzers, and modulation monitors.​

So, get yourself an SDR as a piece of "test equipment" and knock yourself out.

I've got receivers that cover this spectrum, as well as a spectrum analyzer that covers everything from damn near 0KHz all the way up to 7GHz, not to mention a service monitor that covers this (it'll even transmit there). It's fun to scan through, but not fun to listen to.

No consumer scanner is going be able to do anything with the signals used on this band, other than let you listen to a annoying buzzing sound. And since LTE is encrypted, you won't be able to decode any of the traffic. Even if you could, trying to sniff packets to form any listenable radio traffic would be very difficult with the sheer amount of data.

Not to mention that all you'd get would be whatever traffic was on whichever sector of the cell site you were sitting in.

And, yeah, encrypted….

Old TVs are getting harder to find these days (those signal bands were originally carved out of the high UHF bands on broadcast television - I could tell you which channels, if I had my notes handy.)

Channel 70 - 83 were removed from the broadcast service in 1983 and assigned to other services. 52-69 were pulled later and became Band 14, used by FirstNet, and some other parts of that spectrum was used by other cellular carriers.

 

[mmckenna]

This the 700MHz band, not 800, but the technology is the same. Big 10MHz wide uplink and downlink "channels". Your scanner can only "hear" about 25KHz at a time. This spectrum isn't 'channelized' like people think it is. You can't tune to a little 25KHz wide section of that 10MHz and hear individual conversations. It's a big wide packetized data channel. All those secret phone calls are mixed in with Youtube videos and peoples Amazon surfing:

 

[kc2asb]

For people like me, it's just the simple fact that there are signals in those bands that are being transmitted, that are striking my person, that I am not permitted (for some asinine reason) to know the content or character of.
Granted, I can get them with my Malahit DSP3 - but that's because Russia has no ECPA.
And, I think, neither should we. Besides, it's a dated law, that was effectively unenforceable when it was passed, that has become vestigial at best (since mobile phones don't operate in those bands anymore

There's a very good reason I kept that stack of PRO-2006 units I've got on the shelf...

I agree, the ECPA was flawed, unenforceable legislation that never should have been passed. For years, phone calls were placed over the old VHF mobile phones and HF / VHF ship/shore channels. Privacy was not expected, as it was generally understood that the call was going out over the air. However, the cellular industry had to sell the public on the illusion that their calls were as secure as a landline despite the fact that the phones were essentially radios.

The burden of securing the privacy of cell phones should have placed solely on the cellular industry, not receiver manufacturers and radio hobbyists.

While the law is outdated, removing it will mostly be symbolic as the signals in the old analog cell bands cannot be decoded, as mentioned above,

I still have a couple of PRO 2006's on hand as well, but never search through the old cell bands anymore

 

[AK9R]

That's ECPA86 and the follow-on in 1992 (?) that made it so that scanners can't be modified to pick up CMT signals.

The issue with the ECPA is that it is a law passed by Congress which required the FCC to enact implementation rules. In order for the rules to be rescinded, Congress would have to act to repeal the law. The FCC's hands are tied.

And for those who say it was unenforceable, the FCC enforced Congress's wishes every time they denied a Part 15 equipment authorization to a scanner or receiver that could receive those frequencies.

 

[DaveNF2G]

The only real problem with Part 97 is the digital bandwidth standard. This should probably be addressed throughout all Parts for consistency, which would take some time. Does anyone know that the FCC is not conducting such a review?

 

[JDKelley]

The issue with the ECPA is that it is a law passed by Congress which required the FCC to enact implementation rules. In order for the rules to be rescinded, Congress would have to act to repeal the law. The FCC's hands are tied.

And for those who say it was unenforceable, the FCC enforced Congress's wishes every time they denied a Part 15 equipment authorization to a scanner or receiver that could receive those frequencies.

Sure, the FCC could deny that such receivers were sold. But they could not deny such receivers being made, and how would they catch them in the field? You can track a transmitter, but how do you track a receiver? By IF? Pretty much all radio receivers run with conversion IFs, so that's a nonstarter - you'll be picking up every FM receiver in operation.

Between 1986 and 1992, you could clip a diode or resistor and restore cell band reception, and how would the FCC catch you doing it? They can't. That's what makes it "unenforceable."

And I stand corrected on the CDMA CMT bands still being in use - I thought they were all replaced with the GSM bands at higher frequencies - didn't they stop using them with 3g or 4g?

 

[MUTNAV]

The issue with the ECPA is that it is a law passed by Congress which required the FCC to enact implementation rules. In order for the rules to be rescinded, Congress would have to act to repeal the law. The FCC's hands are tied.

Sure, the FCC could deny that such receivers were sold. But they could not deny such receivers being made, and how would they catch them in the field? You can track a transmitter, but how do you track a receiver? By IF? Pretty much all radio receivers run with conversion IFs, so that's a nonstarter - you'll be picking up every FM receiver in operation.

Between 1986 and 1992, you could clip a diode or resistor and restore cell band reception, and how would the FCC catch you doing it? They can't. That's what makes it "unenforceable."

And I stand corrected on the CDMA CMT bands still being in use - I thought they were all replaced with the GSM bands at higher frequencies - didn't they stop using them with 3g or 4g?

Another thought about the enforce-ability of rules or laws.

Step it up a notch to weapons, just because there are laws that put some pretty tough limits on silencers / suppressors, doesn't mean that a person can't make one, or modify an existing one. But... some would argue it's still a reasonable law/set of rules.

Don't try and read much about me and the 2nd amendment into this, I'm just working with the idea of a law/rule that is made, and it's enforce-ability, and reasonableness in relation to its enforce-ability.

Thanks
Joel

 

[mmckenna]

I thought they were all replaced with the GSM bands at higher frequencies - didn't they stop using them with 3g or 4g?

The carriers paid billion$ for that spectrum and are not going to give it up. They just change the emission type. It's far too valuable and far too useful to abandon. And if they did, one of the other carriers would snatch it up.

 

[AK9R]

But they could not deny such receivers being made, and how would they catch them in the field?

First off, those receivers were still being made. They just could not be sold to the general public. If you had a reason to own an unblocked IC-R7100 or IC-R9000, you could buy one.

The FCC has rules saying you can't sell certain electronic devices to the general public without an FCC equipment authorization. Unblocked receivers don't get an authorization. No respectable manufacturer/importer would risk being fined by the FCC for selling unauthorized equipment.

But, the whole point is moot. Congress probably won't repeal the law; the FCC probably won't rescind the rule; there's nothing to listen to in that segment of the spectrum.

 

[mmckenna]

there's nothing to listen to in that segment of the spectrum.

I keep saying this….

But I know, people want to hear for themselves, and hobbyists want to explore.

Seriously, though, if there was something juicy and secret hiding there, one of the hundreds of thousands of people with a cheap SDR would have shared it on the internet by now.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

I keep saying this….

But I know, people want to hear for themselves, and hobbyists want to explore.

Seriously, though, if there was something juicy and secret hiding there, one of the hundreds of thousands of people with a cheap SDR would have shared it on the internet by now.

I had a business reason (contract) to visit a Federal National Lab in the northeast. I rented a Nissan car (with built in Nav system) from the airport and input the address for the place. I got within 3 miles and apparently for whatever reason, the government had this place locked out of the navigation database. So there I was running late and no directions. I pulled out my antique Garmin NUVI and was able to find the location easily from that point. There really is no legit reason to block access to frequencies or addresses. Everybody knows they exist and there is always a way around it. It is just feel good stuff. Like the ECPA was written because a certain congress critter got his feelings hurt.

The Gingrich/Martin/McDermott Phone Tap Case